[NGT2]

Originally Posted by tsbrown

That’s exactly where I am on replacing my 540i. But maybe the X5 40i instead of X3. We don’t need two X3’s.

The X5 M50 would tempt me a lot more but I really like the sportier driving of the sedan and I think the X3 is small enough to still feel sporty. I think the height off the ground would still knock it out for me, but I’d give it a good try. I’d likely try to drive an X5 M50 also but I really doubt I’d like it enough. That’s getting up there in price and I’d rather go 8 if I’m getting that high dollar.

All this is a moot hypothetical because if I had to replace my M550 then I’d just find another M550.

[tsbrown]

So my dealer has a 530i, i5 e40 and i5 M60. Which should I drive? No 540i because all allocations are customer orders….what does that tell you?

My takeaway from the Savagegeese review is they thought it was very competent, but the 5er is no longer an exciting sports sedan.

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by Neusser

Was surprised Mark called it stiff. In this regard, I'm curious as to how much better the Euro version will handle than the soft serve the Americans typically get.

Not the first time I’ve heard this but what evidence is there that Euro and US suspensions are different. I assume the RealOEM parts list would show this but have never checked. Different damper part numbers?

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by tsbrown

So my dealer has a 530i, i5 e40 and i5 M60. Which should I drive? No 540i because all allocations are customer orders….what does that tell you?

My takeaway from the Savagegeese review is they thought it was very competent, but the 5er is no longer an exciting sports sedan.

Of those three, I’d drive the M60 for sure. When I drove it, it was a pleasant drive. My negative comments are relative to my feelings about driving my M550. I’m biased to old fashioned muscle. I like the real engine sound (I have ASD turned off), the gear shifts, and other sensations of ice. And I like the looks and styling of the G30 better (inside and out). The G60 feels really big to me, which I know is relative because the G30 is big itself. But the height of the G60 turned me off more than the length or width.

I’m not into the “spaceship” feel and that’s how the i5 M60 felt to me. Complete with really odd artificial electric sounds.

But that is all relative to my preferences. The i5 M60 is comfortable and fast, drives smaller than it is in regards to roll and handling, and is a nice car. Of those three, I’d absolutely drive the performance model.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by tsbrown

Not the first time I’ve heard this but what evidence is there that Euro and US suspensions are different. I assume the RealOEM parts list would show this but have never checked. Different damper part numbers?

I used to work in automotive consulting as an editor, so I saw all of the different specs for two of the German "Big Three." Every manufacturer uses country-specific suspension set ups, as the road quality and customer preferences vary.


Many years ago, when I moved to Europe, I brought a newish A4 "Ultrasport" over from the States. Compared to the Euro S-lines I drove, it was much softer, and it was underbraked for the Autobahns, which nearly resulted in an accident on several occasions of left-lane hustling.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by NGT2

Of those three, I’d drive the M60 for sure. When I drove it, it was a pleasant drive. My negative comments are relative to my feelings about driving my M550. I’m biased to old fashioned muscle. I like the real engine sound (I have ASD turned off), the gear shifts, and other sensations of ice. And I like the looks and styling of the G30 better (inside and out). The G60 feels really big to me, which I know is relative because the G30 is big itself. But the height of the G60 turned me off more than the length or width.

I’m not into the “spaceship” feel and that’s how the i5 M60 felt to me. Complete with really odd artificial electric sounds.

But that is all relative to my preferences. The i5 M60 is comfortable and fast, drives smaller than it is in regards to roll and handling, and is a nice car. Of those three, I’d absolutely drive the performance model.

Good point on the height. Have never checked the numbers, but the new ones do look quite tall.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by Neusser

Good point on the height. Have never checked the numbers, but the new ones do look quite tall.

I believe it is so that they can fit the battery underneath. I was hoping that the ice powered models would be lower as a result but that does not seem to be the case. I think they went for uniformity across the line, which I think was a mistake.

[AP]

Probably easier for bmw production wise but must be a compromise

I saw another at a dealership at the weekend and although it might only be a few inches bigger here and there, it just looks large now.

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by Neusser

I used to work in automotive consulting as an editor, so I saw all of the different specs for two of the German "Big Three." Every manufacturer uses country-specific suspension set ups, as the road quality and customer preferences vary.


Many years ago, when I moved to Europe, I brought a newish A4 "Ultrasport" over from the States. Compared to the Euro S-lines I drove, it was much softer, and it was underbraked for the Autobahns, which nearly resulted in an accident on several occasions of left-lane hustling.

Out of curiosity I went and looked at part numbers in RealOEM for my 2019 540i US build produced in Nov 2018 with S704 passive M sport suspension and compared it to an EU version of the same car. 2019/2020 model year seems to be the last this was a reliable source as the feed to RealOEM was discontinued after this. Of the 3 primary parts front and rear - strut (damper), spring, and auxilary shock absorber - that should dictate the setup if different by continent, they are exactly the same. I even checked the VDC versions of the same model year and month of build and they are the same. Curiously the spring part numbers are not listed and the spring image is greyed out.

So maybe this was the case years ago with Audi, and even for BMW. But for my example this is no longer the case. I do know that in the E39 5er - and I had 2 of them when they were in production - that BMW changed springs and/or dampers depending on the equipment in the car. So if it was more heavily optioned, it had perhaps slightly stiffer springs and/or dampers to compensate. Again, doesn't appear to be the case any more.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by tsbrown

Out of curiosity I went and looked at part numbers in RealOEM for my 2019 540i US build produced in Nov 2018 with S704 passive M sport suspension and compared it to an EU version of the same car. 2019/2020 model year seems to be the last this was a reliable source as the feed to RealOEM was discontinued after this. Of the 3 primary parts front and rear - strut (damper), spring, and auxilary shock absorber - that should dictate the setup if different by continent, they are exactly the same. I even checked the VDC versions of the same model year and month of build and they are the same. Curiously the spring part numbers are not listed and the spring image is greyed out.

So maybe this was the case years ago with Audi, and even for BMW. But for my example this is no longer the case. I do know that in the E39 5er - and I had 2 of them when they were in production - that BMW changed springs and/or dampers depending on the equipment in the car. So if it was more heavily optioned, it had perhaps slightly stiffer springs and/or dampers to compensate. Again, doesn't appear to be the case any more.

The springs are the key components, as the Einfederung is a primary aspect in determining general ride comfort (our perception of stiff or soft/transmission of vibrations etc.), so if they are greyed out, this does not really help.

The UK also typically gets softer suspensions, as does any place where roads are poorer. German roads are generally excellent, aside from select areas in NRW.

The Euro G31 springs are pretty stiff, but as I have mentioned a few times, the car is definitely underdamped on rebound for anyone who likes driving.

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by Neusser

The springs are the key components, as the Einfederung is a primary aspect in determining general ride comfort (our perception of stiff or soft/transmission of vibrations etc.), so if they are greyed out, this does not really help.

The UK also typically gets softer suspensions, as does any place where roads are poorer. German roads are generally excellent, aside from select areas in NRW.

The Euro G31 springs are pretty stiff, but as I have mentioned a few times, the car is definitely underdamped on rebound for anyone who likes driving.

This is all good in theory but this doesn't prove the parts are different for the same model and suspension. I have actual part numbers from a reliable source (https://www.realoem.com/bmw/) that says they are the same in EU and US. If you do as well please share. Otherwise I'm going with the reasonable conclusion they are the same. Beyond this it doesn't really matter to me...my curiosity has been satisfied on this.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by tsbrown

This is all good in theory but this doesn't prove the parts are different for the same model and suspension. I have actual part numbers from a reliable source (https://www.realoem.com/bmw/) that says they are the same in EU and US. If you do as well please share. Otherwise I'm going with the reasonable conclusion they are the same. Beyond this it doesn't really matter to me...my curiosity has been satisfied on this.

Are the springs the same? All I see is struts, springs are greyed out.

[Joe-BMW33]

Originally Posted by tsbrown

So my dealer has a 530i, i5 e40 and i5 M60. Which should I drive? No 540i because all allocations are customer orders….what does that tell you?

My takeaway from the Savagegeese review is they thought it was very competent, but the 5er is no longer an exciting sports sedan.

Very telling. Those i5's are going to sit and BMW is going to realize what a mistake they made going all in on electric, especially since they have pretty much copied Tesla. I think they are already offering significant incentives on them to get them to move.

In terms of what to drive, unless you are seriously considering an i5, I personally would not waste my time. We had an iX loaner a few weeks ago and it was so vanilla. That said, the 530i B48 4 banger is no fun either, but at least you would get a feel for the weight distribution of the ICE model.

Looking forward to the M560e PHEV or whatever they are going to call it.

[AP]

I think to a large extent , BMWs hands have been forced, at least here in the EU where this year , 22% of cars that they produce have to be electric. That’s going to increase as the years progress.
That maybe a problem for ICE because if EVs don’t sell, that means less ICEs presumably ?

I think by the end of this year, it will be very interesting to see how the g60 sells and which particular models.

Whilst my view on the g60 hasn’t changed (it has firmed up if anything) I’m still interested in following its progress

[Joe-BMW33]

Originally Posted by AP

I think to a large extent , BMWs hands have been forced, at least here in the EU where this year , 22% of cars that they produce have to be electric. That’s going to increase as the years progress.
That maybe a problem for ICE because if EVs don’t sell, that means less ICEs presumably ?

I think by the end of this year, it will be very interesting to see how the g60 sells and which particular models.

Whilst my view on the g60 hasn’t changed (it has firmed up if anything) I’m still interested in following its progress

Do PHEV's count in the 22%?

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by Joe-BMW33

Very telling. Those i5's are going to sit and BMW is going to realize what a mistake they made going all in on electric, especially since they have pretty much copied Tesla. I think they are already offering significant incentives on them to get them to move.

In terms of what to drive, unless you are seriously considering an i5, I personally would not waste my time. We had an iX loaner a few weeks ago and it was so vanilla. That said, the 530i B48 4 banger is no fun either, but at least you would get a feel for the weight distribution of the ICE model.

Looking forward to the M560e PHEV or whatever they are going to call it.

I may drive both the 530i and M60 if there’s time. The 530i for the reasons you mentioned but since we already have an X3 it would be an interesting comparison. I have zero interest (maybe even negative) in an i5 but at least the M60 would give me an idea of how more power and the adaptive suspension would work.

The 550e seems like it could be an option but I just don’t get carrying around 600 lbs more 100% of the time for marginally more performance 10% of the time. The current generation of BEVs and PHEVs are just the automotive equivalent of CFLs. But I guess it’s a good thing there are people who are willing to be guinea pigs for the compromised technology until the full adaptive LED equivalents can be developed. Or better still would be the alternative fuels so we can keep driving ICEs. I don’t even drive a golf cart when I play, I sure as hell don’t want to drive one on the road.

[CMK]

Originally Posted by tsbrown

So my dealer has a 530i, i5 e40 and i5 M60. Which should I drive? No 540i because all allocations are customer orders….what does that tell you?

If I were forced to purchase a G60 then it'd be a 540i, no question.

Originally Posted by tsbrown

My takeaway from the Savagegeese review is they thought it was very competent, but the 5er is no longer an exciting sports sedan.

They felt similarly with the G30, at least the 540i M-Sport they drove. Looks like the G60 is just continuing down that path of "supremely capable to a fault."

[Joe-BMW33]

Originally Posted by tsbrown

I may drive both the 530i and M60 if there’s time. The 530i for the reasons you mentioned but since we already have an X3 it would be an interesting comparison. I have zero interest (maybe even negative) in an i5 but at least the M60 would give me an idea of how more power and the adaptive suspension would work.

The 550e seems like it could be an option but I just don’t get carrying around 600 lbs more 100% of the time for marginally more performance 10% of the time. The current generation of BEVs and PHEVs are just the automotive equivalent of CFLs. But I guess it’s a good thing there are people who are willing to be guinea pigs for the compromised technology until the full adaptive LED equivalents can be developed. Or better still would be the alternative fuels so we can keep driving ICEs. I don’t even drive a golf cart when I play, I sure as hell don’t want to drive one on the road.

We should grab a beer we think alike. I do think PHEV's developed purely for performance reasons and not fuel economy or global warming are intriguing. The upcoming M5 with the S63 and four electric motors could push 800hp combined. I guess I am hoping the 550e is close to 700hp combined.

Hydrogen ICE could save us.

[AP]

Info about the 22%
https://www.drive-electric.co.uk/pre...es-prediction/

[Gautam]

Originally Posted by Joe-BMW33

We should grab a beer we think alike. I do think PHEV's developed purely for performance reasons and not fuel economy or global warming are intriguing. The upcoming M5 with the S63 and four electric motors could push 800hp combined. I guess I am hoping the 550e is close to 700hp combined.

Hydrogen ICE could save us.

Earlier in this thread I was optimistic about the G90 M5, I foolishly hoped it’d be at around or even below 5000 lbs.

But the numbers for both the 550e and the M5 are out, and they’re nothing one would daydream about.

The 550e has 489 combined hp, weighing 4916 lbs.
The M5 has 718 combined hp, weighing 5368 lbs (there’s a front page article on this site with that as the title)

I just don’t see phev as the answer for anything remotely fun. And my outlook on the M5 is greatly diminished. With those numbers, it’s likely going to barely match the F90 in a straight line, and maybe through some technological trickery keep up with it on the track (hard to fathom how though), while still carrying over 1000lbs more.

I am overall not a fan of Tesla, but the G90 looks especially disappointing next to a Plaid, which is 500 lbs lighter and has over 300hp more. Hard to make a case for a performance phev when it’s losing out significantly in both ways. I wasn’t expecting BMW to match Tesla, but had a bit of hope that they’d come a lot closer with their EV/phev lineup. Porsche is clearly taking the fight to them.

Instead the power/weight ratio is dramatically worse than the F90.

The 550e is more of a spiritual successor to the 530e than anything else, the g30 540 is likely going to top it from a performance perspective. What I’ll say in favor of phev’s is that they offer a lot of practicality. Most of my commutes (to the office or grocery store) could be done on their tiny batteries, while the ICE can take over for long haul trips with no range anxiety.

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by Joe-BMW33

We should grab a beer we think alike. I do think PHEV's developed purely for performance reasons and not fuel economy or global warming are intriguing. The upcoming M5 with the S63 and four electric motors could push 800hp combined. I guess I am hoping the 550e is close to 700hp combined.

Hydrogen ICE could save us.

You’re on. How about a Maine Lunch? Discovered it last summer and I don’t think they distribute south of Massachusetts so it will be a few months before I have it again. A very drinkable IPA and I don’t normally like IPAs.

I’m bailing on the G90 M5 for similar reasons as why I’m not in on the 550e, but it will be 150k ish. Many more options to consider if spending that. Not that there aren’t plenty of options at 80-90k.

[Joe-BMW33]

Originally Posted by tsbrown

You’re on. How about a Maine Lunch? Discovered it last summer and I don’t think they distribute south of Massachusetts so it will be a few months before I have it again. A very drinkable IPA and I don’t normally like IPAs.

I’m bailing on the G90 M5 for similar reasons as why I’m not in on the 550e, but it will be 150k ish. Many more options to consider if spending that. Not that there aren’t plenty of options at 80-90k.

Damn, that's all I drink these days. That's funny. I was in NJ and NYC last week on business. Took clients out for lunches and dinners and tried ordering a Maine Lunch every time and they looked at me like I was speaking Chinese. Guess it hasn't gone south enough. Great stuff, just the right amount of higher alcohol (7.5%) content that gives you a nice buzz without making you fall on your ass.

My treat, let me know when you are around.