[EvenKeel]

Completely agree with the OPs assessment of the 7.

Here's the fundamental issue as to why BMW is not able to compete against the S class -

MB puts all their might and resources into building the S class as their flagship and then the tech trickles down to the lesser models (case in point; the new E class).

BMW's bread and butter is the 3 series. As such, their strategy is to build up from the 3 series. As a result, their flagship is a derivative of their entry model....from a design standpoint. The interior design of the 7 series; screams 3 series.....from the NAV screen to the HVAC to the infotainment. Using higher quality materials doesn't change the fact that the design is very much a derivative of a lower model.

Two different philosophies that net two different results. BMW 3/4 series handily outsell the C class. Conversely, MB's S class is just that.....in a different "class" to the 7.

......and yes opinions are like a-holes; but sales figures are the facts. ;-)

[DaveCM5]

Originally Posted by EvenKeel

BMW 3/4 series handily outsell the C class.

I'm sure this is helped by, in my opinion, the C-class looking like a turd wrapped in rice paper driving down the road. What a horrible looking car.

But as was said, opinions are like a-holes.

[NewM3driver]

Originally Posted by zer0cool

So by almost all accounts the new 7 is a flop. Reviewers almost universally prefer the S class. The new 7 has been called boring, uninspired, little changed from before, too much like a 3 series, with gimmick and useless tech. Recent articles point to very low sales figures for the new 7, significantly below S class, resulting in huge discounts averaging over 13k per car (see BBG article http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...in-luxury-race).

I think most importantly, BMW attempted to build a luxury car to compete with MB and obviously has failed. BMW simply cannot build a luxury car as luxurious as the S class even if its life depended on it. This is because that's simply not BMW's DNA.

To be honest, I am concerned about the new 5. It looks just like a smaller 7 so far. The interior looks like a smaller 7 as well, and honestly doesn't look much different form the current 5 except for the now universal tablet on the dash. The exterior design evolution appears boring, kind of like the new A4. But at least the interior design of the A4 improved by leaps and bounds. However leaked 5 interior pics appear to indicate that's not the case for the BMW.

The only way I think the 5 won't flop like the 7 is if BMW go and try to make the 5 more of a sports sedan. With the decrease in weight and increase in engine power, BMW needs to go back to its roots and make the new 5 a better driving machine than the outgoing 5. If BMW tries to make the 5 compete with the new E on luxury. I am sorry, it just doesn't compete. With an interior that hasn't really changed in years, it just can't compete with the new E class. BMW's soul is not luxury, but driving experience, and the new 5 needs to be optimized for that.

I hope the 5 turns out well. I owned a 2014, and if the new 5 is a better driving machine, I may consider getting one again (I don't like large luxury barges and probably won't get a 7 or S in the foreseeable future).

You are driving a Tesla LOL. Fast, yes. Good driver? Hardly. And as far as the quality fit/finish and interior don't even get me started.

I do agree with you that bmw should be sticking to it's roots and building the best SPORTS sedans in the world.... That's why I'm currently driving a 2016 M3

[martin mustang]

I do hope the new 5 will end-up a flop, I am worried about the volume BMW is getting to, volume never worked in favour of quality let along brand value.
Looking at my F10 I got brand new in 2011, with now 2 million sold, it is simply bad news for me! Trading value and exclusivity both gone down the drains.

Originally Posted by zer0cool

So by almost all accounts the new 7 is a flop. Reviewers almost universally prefer the S class. The new 7 has been called boring, uninspired, little changed from before, too much like a 3 series, with gimmick and useless tech. Recent articles point to very low sales figures for the new 7, significantly below S class, resulting in huge discounts averaging over 13k per car (see BBG article http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...in-luxury-race).

I think most importantly, BMW attempted to build a luxury car to compete with MB and obviously has failed. BMW simply cannot build a luxury car as luxurious as the S class even if its life depended on it. This is because that's simply not BMW's DNA.

To be honest, I am concerned about the new 5. It looks just like a smaller 7 so far. The interior looks like a smaller 7 as well, and honestly doesn't look much different form the current 5 except for the now universal tablet on the dash. The exterior design evolution appears boring, kind of like the new A4. But at least the interior design of the A4 improved by leaps and bounds. However leaked 5 interior pics appear to indicate that's not the case for the BMW.

The only way I think the 5 won't flop like the 7 is if BMW go and try to make the 5 more of a sports sedan. With the decrease in weight and increase in engine power, BMW needs to go back to its roots and make the new 5 a better driving machine than the outgoing 5. If BMW tries to make the 5 compete with the new E on luxury. I am sorry, it just doesn't compete. With an interior that hasn't really changed in years, it just can't compete with the new E class. BMW's soul is not luxury, but driving experience, and the new 5 needs to be optimized for that.

I hope the 5 turns out well. I owned a 2014, and if the new 5 is a better driving machine, I may consider getting one again (I don't like large luxury barges and probably won't get a 7 or S in the foreseeable future).

[bavarianboar]

F10 was a volume car even in 2011 when you got one. 5 series has always been since E60 was introduced.

You can't control the market if you hold onto a car for a few years. Perhaps you can look at a panamera if you want the value to hold. :

[YungDro]

thread closed....

[YungDro]

thread closed....

[pharding]

I road in the new 7er twice this week. It is a great car. It drives great for such a large car and the interior fit and finish is spectacular.

[Germanauto]

I've always been biased toward BMW but I have to agree with the OP. Despite my biases, I am still objective where it counts. I felt that the F01 was better than the W221, only marginally. But when the W222 came out BMW was left in the dust. I've spent some time with a few new G11s and found that:

- The tech is impressive albeit a bit gimmicky (ex. what the hell is anybody going to do with the self-park feature? Pointless).
- The quality of materials and build quality is right there with the S-class
- The car is bland without ///M sport but quite handsome with it. Overall, it looks more like a "big BMW" rather than a "flagship" like the E65 did. You won't look at it one first glance and go "hot damn that's a fancy car." You may do a double take and think it's an F10 until you notice the length. With the W222 you know it's an S-class.
- The interior design is a huge let down. Even though the quality is right there with the S-class, you just get the feeling that it is "typical BMW" from a design standpoint. Too simple, not enough going on to really capture the imagination and make you go "wow." It really does, in some ways, feel like a bigger 3-series with higher quality materials.
- While I have not driven one, the general consensus seems to be that it is not a driver's car. Maybe marginally better than the S-class, but that doesn't matter in this class of vehicles.

Overall, unless you are a hardcore BMW loyalist, there's no reason to pick the 7er over the S-class. If you cared about driving dynamics you'd opt for a 6-series GC or Panamera instead of even considering either of these two.

Now I've spent some time with the new E-class and while I find it to be too "safe" from the outside, the interior is very special as expected. From spy shots, it looks like BMW is going to put the same "safe" interior design from the G11 into the G30, which on the surface does not bode well. However, I think this interior will be fine for this class of vehicles and the Bimmer could redeem itself by offering a more compelling driving experience and better powertrain options than the E-class. Sporty looks and driving dynamics matter more to customers of the midsize class than the full-size, so the Bimmer could have a leg up. Just look at the E60, which while in certain trims looked good, was overall an odd design but still killed it in the market because it looked sporty and was still a real BMW from behind the wheel. However, based on the direction BMW has gone with every new model since the E89, I doubt they care a lick about making the G30 enjoyable to drive.

[SCOTT26]

The reason the 7er exists and has always existed is that it is the luxury car you can drive and not just be driven.

[Germanauto]

^Dude why are you always shilling for BMW. Admit their faults when they slip up, which seems to happen quite a lot lately.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

^Dude why are you always shilling for BMW. Admit their faults when they slip up, which seems to happen quite a lot lately.

He works for BMW. He's their online forum guy.

[Takumi587]

The 2016 7 series here in SoCal are practically 15k off as advertised even on their websites. Makes me consider them over the upcomig 5 series...

[RPiM5]

I've driven the G11, and there is a real BMW underneath that skin. But is the new 7-Series disappointing? No not really, but the new G11 is definitely more of an evolution than a revolution. In my opinion, from a distance it's hard to tell a G11 from an F01. Remember those days when the E65 first came out or even the E60? That was a time when BMW took a lot of chances on bold new designs, which received mixed reviews, but their designs were definitely polarizing, both a good thing and a bad thing.

Move on to present day. The 7-Series is still the luxury car that owner will enjoy driving but the S-Class is a car that owner will enjoy being driven in. However the ways in which the G11 is disappointing include the somewhat formulaic exterior design, but Mercedes is doing it too with their latest line up. My question is, why does every BMW series have to be so similar? Can't we have bigger differentiation? Why do the headlights have to meet the grills on every model? Why does every interior need to have the floating iDrive screen design? Why do the kidney grills keep getting bigger?

For the sake of the new G30, I know I will be a bit disappointed in the formula it's going to follow from the G11 and even the F30. I know we'll be getting the best 5-Series yet but BMW's safe design language lately has made me less enthusiastic than I have ever been about buying a new BMW. On the other hand, we have the people who designed the i8, I just want to know where did they go? Maybe they are all working on the new Z5 project, I don't know, but I do feel like each BMW Series needs more differentiation and a slightly more bold approach to design language. I am not looking forward to seeing a car that looks like a smaller 7-Series.

[zer0cool]

Originally Posted by Takumi587

The 2016 7 series here in SoCal are practically 15k off as advertised even on their websites. Makes me consider them over the upcomig 5 series...

Ya, I am thinking leasing deals on a 740 maybe better (like actually less $) than a 540 for maybe the first year after the new 5 is out. That would be weird.

[x5mannn]

A 740 works. Especially if it's M sport

[krispykreme]

Originally Posted by x5mannn

A 740 works. Especially if it's M sport

I have a G11 right now. Its a good cruiser. I don't like the auto brake hold. Nor i liked the new driver assistance features.

Its too much gimmicks that is not yet fully mature. The lane centering function does not work well when the traffic lanes are broken lines. It nearly drove me off the road on 101.

G30 is going down the G11 path. Generic F30 rear really bothers me. Too much useless tech. If BMW can offer true level 3 autonomous driving, it would be great. But the current system is just blah.

[Germanauto]

Based on the released photos of the G30 I don't think corporate's gotta worry, it'll sell like hot cakes. Now whether it drives like a real BMW is another story. I hope it's better than the F10.

[pharding]

The G30 looks spectacular! Kudos to BMW.

[longkid]

Some ppl mentioned driving experience. There's no doubt that the 5 and 7 series provide better driving exp than MB E and S series. But is that really matter? Large cars like 5 and 7, buyers care more about luxury, technology, comfort etc, and not mentioned that larger cars have worse driving exp than smaller ones due to weight. If you thinking about good-to-drive, please consider 234 and M. 5 and 7 are juz not this style

[solstice]

Originally Posted by longkid

Some ppl mentioned driving experience. There's no doubt that the 5 and 7 series provide better driving exp than MB E and S series. But is that really matter? Large cars like 5 and 7, buyers care more about luxury, technology, comfort etc, and not mentioned that larger cars have worse driving exp than smaller ones due to weight. If you thinking about good-to-drive, please consider 234 and M. 5 and 7 are juz not this style

Have you ever driven a 5 series pre F10?

[bimmer_335]

Originally Posted by Alpine535Msport

Actually I have driven the new 7-series many times since I work for an Auto Group. Quality is close but still doesn't feel as special as the S-class. Design in the interior doesn't feel special at all. It looks like they took the 3-series interior and dressed it up with nicer materials and switch gear. The 7-series in the USA consistently trails the S-class in sales. People speak with their money. BMW could have done a much better job. This looks like the worlds laziest redesign.

+1

if i was in the market for full size luxury i'd definitely go with S-class... design language is much better as compared to 7-er. S-class is the clear leader when it comes to full size luxury sedans.