[G30M]

Originally Posted by Littlecoupe

I'll be on the 'Ring for TF in less than 3 weeks...and it's the rare situations like this which have me exercising caution.

I obviously won't be going 10/10ths due to my own lack of experience on the track, the cars, and frankly not enough track experience in general. But further to that, I've already decided I'd rather approach traffic cautiously. If someone approaches fast enough to pass, I'm letting them pass. If I'm passing, I'm ONLY doing it if it's fully safe - indicated - most likely on a straight.

I'm excited, but accidents always linger on my mind. I'm actually less concerned about injury to body rather than wallet...LOL.

I thought about going to the Ring to drive, but after researching, I decided that I'll just drive on my PS5 VR Sim racing rig. it is seriously as real as it gets other than it gives me a terrible motion sickness for the rest of the 24hrs.

[couchflyer]

The Porsche was the faster car and doing the passing. It is the faster drivers responsibility to make sure the pass is/will be safe.

The BMW did not signal, thus notifying the Porsche driver that he is seen by the M2 driver.

I think the fault is about 80% Porsche driver 20% BMW M2 driver.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by couchflyer

The Porsche was the faster car and doing the passing. It is the faster drivers responsibility to make sure the pass is/will be safe.

The BMW did not signal, thus notifying the Porsche driver that he is seen by the M2 driver.

I think the fault is about 80% Porsche driver 20% BMW M2 driver.

He says the Ring is considered a one way two lane road

So according to him M2 is at fault

[SteVTEC]

I've watched hundreds of Misha's videos, and I agree that it's the M2 driver's fault, but that police could still decide it's 50/50 also. You can't be driving on the Ring and lose all situational awareness like that. The M2 driver never saw the Porsche in the rear view when they had slowed down behind him, never saw him in the side view mirror, nor in peripheral vision as he was turning in, and then hit the Porsche in the right-rear as they were passing??? They never saw them going by on the left and "oh sh*t" jerked back over, like Misha mentioned?? M2 driver just never saw the Porsche at all and totally spaced out, apparently.

[Mech Spec]

Ive driven this track so many times in racing games I know every corner... I guess you cant expect it of every driver.

Regardless of who is at "fault" it seems like the m2 driver was not aware enough of the track or their surroundings.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by G30M

he thinks it's the BMW's fault. that police will investigate. I still think it's 50-50.

He knows it's the BMW driver's fault to the letter of the law because as I said in the other thread, during TF the Nur is considered a 2-lane public road where slower traffic keeps to the right unless indicated. There was no indication, so legally he turned into the faster car on the left, and therefore is at fault.

I personally put the blame 85/15 Porsche/BMW for the reasons I stated before; the Porsche driver had the benefit of seeing the BMW driver (and I do not believe the BMW driver ever saw the Porsche), and even for a limited time, seeing how the BMW driver was driving, yet took the chance on a gap anyway without right indication from the BMW driver or the power to complete the pass before the BMW driver would naturally turn in. He made a bad judgement call, but at least he had the opportunity to make a call, one that the BMW driver didn't because he never saw the Porsche at all.

This happens every day on public roads around the world, and I myself have been in (and you probably have as well) situations where someone pulled out in front of me and I could have just plowed into them and collected the insurance knowing it was their fault, but I slowed and avoided an accident.

Put another way; the BMW driver didn't have the opportunity to avoid an accident that was imminent, but the Porsche driver did. It's this opportunity that puts the Porsche driver mostly at fault IMO. Yes, the BMW driver should have been more aware, but had he seen how fast the Porsche was coming up on him I'm sure he would have at least stayed right if not indicated right.

[zx10guy]

Learn something new about the Ring with how things run during a TF.

Maybe I'm not getting the full picture. But I think it's absolutely nuts to have a track operated as a public road expecting it to be operated that way without issues. There are no lane markers denoting expected travel paths. It's a track where people will run a racing line.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by NSXR

Put another way; the BMW driver didn't have the opportunity to avoid an accident that was imminent, but the Porsche driver did. It's this opportunity that puts the Porsche driver mostly at fault IMO. Yes, the BMW driver should have been more aware, but had he seen how fast the Porsche was coming up on him I'm sure he would have at least stayed right if not indicated right.

The BMW driver never signaled as an indication that he saw the Porsche and was letting the Porsche driver pass, so the Porsche should have taken extra precaution as the next turn approached.

On such a high-speed roadway/track with so many turns and clipped apexes, I assume the rules include only passing on the left, and only passing when a driver has signaled right, acknowledging your presence and desire to pass.

Sure, the BMW driver should have been more aware...but to the BMW driver's defense, if you're setting your car up for the next fast-approaching apex, you're not always looking in your rearview mirror every second to see who's coming up fast. You're positioning your car for the correct line through the turn.

I have no desire to drive the 'Ring (or even be a passenger), unless I'm in a no-passing session......as there's no way I am trusting the traffic of the 'Ring to honor every passing situation with 'Ring adherence and patience. Hec, I feel safer on a country road with a double yellow line dictating passing situations than the 'Ring with passing situations seemingly on every straightaway and apex. I admire the bravery of people pushing their cars on the 'Ring in traffic with amateur drivers armed with various levels of skill and experience.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Maybe I'm not getting the full picture. But I think it's absolutely nuts to have a track operated as a public road expecting it to be operated that way without issues. There are no lane markers denoting expected travel paths. It's a track where people will run a racing line.

Traditional Germans are strict rule followers, they would follow everything to the T. However with modern globalization and tourism, I fear that this piece of sacred tarmac might be on its last legs.

This year the Ring completely banned motorcycles. Without warning, just announced a few days before the road opened. (They close it every winter) With a death last month and something like this last week, another difficult decision might be on the horizon.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

The BMW driver never signaled as an indication that he saw the Porsche and was letting the Porsche driver pass, so the Porsche should have taken extra precaution as the next turn approached.

On such a high-speed roadway/track with so many turns and clipped apexes, I assume the rules include only passing on the left, and only passing when a driver has signaled right, acknowledging your presence and desire to pass.

Sure, the BMW driver should have been more aware...but to the BMW driver's defense, if you're setting your car up for the next fast-approaching apex, you're not always looking in your rearview mirror every second to see who's coming up fast. You're positioning your car for the correct line through the turn.

Read my assessment again, we are both siding with the BMW driver.

During TF passing is only allowed on the left, but no signal is required by either driver.

[fs1977]

It just became too crowded, with too many wanna be racers trying to set fastest laptimes and not knowing the Touristen Fahrten rules (driving on the right side, passing only on the left for instance). In addition you'll find a lot of inexperienced drivers who think they know the track just because they play racing games and then get caught out because of all the differences in height, compression and decompression wich you really don't experience in games. Combined with street legal cars that became faster and faster every year it's obvious accidents are going to happen.

I try to go there a few times every year, but for me it became less and less enjoyable and more and more risky to drive a few laps myself. Only in those few quiet moments early in the morning or on weekday evenings I dare to go. Last time being already one year ago.

[Efthreeoh]

Of all the videos of the 'Ring I've watched, I've just never understood why any of it is allowed at all. Amateur drivers of different capabilities driving cars of different power and handing capabilities all on the track at the same time. To me, just a recipe for such an event.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by fs1977

It just became too crowded, with too many wanna be racers trying to set fastest laptimes and not knowing the Touristen Fahrten rules (driving on the right side, passing only on the left for instance). In addition you'll find a lot of inexperienced drivers who think they know the track just because they play racing games and then get caught out because of all the differences in height, compression and decompression wich you really don't experience in games. Combined with street legal cars that became faster and faster every year it's obvious accidents are going to happen.

I try to go there a few times every year, but for me it became less and less enjoyable and more and more risky to drive a few laps myself. Only in those few quiet moments early in the morning or on weekday evenings I dare to go. Last time being already one year ago.

If every driver in every country obeyed all traffic rules, there would be no car accidents, ever. We all know how that goes. Some people think the solution is automation. LOL.

[Alfisti]

Either law as stated in that guy's verbal video is flat out weird or he personally has an odd take on it. If it really is regarded as a two lane, one way road, then NO ONE should be using racing lines, as in absolutely no one. If I am the M2 driver and the law comes after me under the guise of "it's a two lane road, you should always be on the right", I sue the 'ring for "what you permit, you promote" because 99% of the cars are taking racing lines and when they spot a car in their mirror they move to the right, very different to what bucko is saying in that video.

My understanding is the driver coaching before you go out states you should not be passing until the slower car indicates, the M2 did not indicate, this should have been a signal to the Porsche driver that it was possible the M2 driver never saw him.

In saying that, organisers need to start sorting by vehicle power/potential lap time, there's GTRS out there with bog stock Golf diesels, it's insane.

[Tejas1836]

It will be a 50/50 determination no doubt

[SteVTEC]

Misha via FB.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

Misha via FB.

This is a summation of his video, but it's important to remember that the rules of the Nur are there to protect the Nur, not the drivers. Drivers drive at their own risk.

[Alfisti]

Again, he can go on about the rules and keeping to the right but no one does, as in no one, they all follow racing lines and try to hit apexes.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Either law as stated in that guy's verbal video is flat out weird or he personally has an odd take on it. If it really is regarded as a two lane, one way road, then NO ONE should be using racing lines, as in absolutely no one.

the entire internet inc Google AI says it's a 2 lane public road

however nobody has a link (inc Google AI) that cites the source

interestingly i've never seen anyone (on youtube) drive like it has lanes as you said!

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Again, he can go on about the rules and keeping to the right but no one does, as in no one, they all follow racing lines and try to hit apexes.

i've never seen him drive like a 2 lane road either. him or anyone else other than the really slow vehicles like buses (yes buses drive there too!). now i know why there are buses on the Nordschleife lol. i mean even the Ford Transit vans don't drive in the right lane!

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Again, he can go on about the rules and keeping to the right but no one does, as in no one, they all follow racing lines and try to hit apexes.

I understand what you're saying, but you're really incorrect. A tell might be your use of "no one" and "all." What you see on videos isn't the way it usually is, and a lot of people who know they aren't fast stay to the right, even if they don't know the rules from the outset because they get tired of people coming up on them quickly and flashing them. It also only takes a minute to figure out that everyone passes on the left only during TF, thus the slower drivers stay to the right.

And yes, the rest of the people (not the majority) treat it like a racetrack and try to hit the apexes and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Pauly Wauly]

I`ve watched the video over and over again, and it`s 100% the BMW driver`s fault! The lack of awareness from the BMW driver who was on his first visit to the Nürburgring is what caused the accident.