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      11-15-2016, 08:34 AM   #23
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So no one is going to address what I said?

Percisely why the Department of Education needs a reform: We aren't having a discussion based around facts, it's hyperbole and outright stupidity.
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      11-15-2016, 09:18 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Repeal Department of education and replace it with....?

What a stupid idea. What is causing Mississippi to rank near the bottom in education, but New York the top - the Department of Education? Laughable.
We've had a Department of Education for decades now, and we still have NY and MS - so clearly they are not addressing the education gap. I'm not well-versed on the DoE, but from what I've seen the Feds take money from the states, and then put a number of requirements on the state (largely non-education related, and often times unfunded). If the states don't comply, they don't get their money back. Like Michelle's lunch program...
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      11-15-2016, 09:37 AM   #25
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Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
So no one is going to address what I said?

Percisely why the Department of Education needs a reform: We aren't having a discussion based around facts, it's hyperbole and outright stupidity.
Why would anyone want to engage in a discussion and/or debate with you? You have proven in one of your most recent threads that you aren't capable of having a civilized discussion and/or debate.
http://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1324473

Would you honestly change your views/opinions on any of this if someone provided facts to support eliminating the Departments you mention or are you just looking to argue just to argue? (rhetorical question)
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      11-15-2016, 09:37 AM   #26
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You can't just get rid of entire Agencies, and it's really narrow minded to think it's okay to do so. These Agencies are entrenched in society and good Americans and businesses rely on important programs within each agency. "Getting rid of them" would do a lot more harm than just saving something like .01% of the entire federal budget.

This is my problem with many conservatives. Instead of building on what works and ridding what doesn't, they typically go with a scorched earth approach (shut downs, obstructionism, defunding, etc) without putting forth any new ideas to fix things.

They'll just say they want to destroy, oops, I mean get rid of everything and then put nothing in place to fill the gaps. And the reality of actually doing it is false, just like getting rid of the ACA.

But hey you guys won, so God save us all over these next 4 years.
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      11-15-2016, 09:38 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
We've had a Department of Education for decades now, and we still have NY and MS - so clearly they are not addressing the education gap. I'm not well-versed on the DoE, but from what I've seen the Feds take money from the states, and then put a number of requirements on the state (largely non-education related, and often times unfunded). If the states don't comply, they don't get their money back. Like Michelle's lunch program...
Well, I don't think that's soley a problem with the DOE exclusively. If states are doing well, and we still have the most advanced universities in the world - maybe it's just that Red state politics that are to blame.

And FYI, New York pays in more than it gets out.


So again, WHAT WILL THIS SOLVE?
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      11-15-2016, 09:42 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Violator View Post
Why would anyone want to engage in a discussion and/or debate with you? You have proven in one of your most recent threads that you aren't capable of having a civilized discussion and/or debate.
http://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1324473

Would you honestly change your views/opinions on any of this if someone provided facts to support eliminating the Departments you mention or are you just looking to argue just to argue? (rhetorical question)
Ahh, so you don't have anything of substance to post - why are you even responding to my question?

If you have actual facts (and you don't) to support the assertion that removing the DoE would actually improve education - please, I would be happy to read them.
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      11-15-2016, 10:24 AM   #29
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The issue I have with a federal DoE is that what is needed in NYC, or Chicago, or Seattle, is not very close to what is needed in my backyard. General oversight, in that we need the 3 R's: OK. But Boston probably doesn't have the level of non-English speakers entering the school systems at the levels in Oxnard. So mandating that our schools meet some arbitrary testing levels, across the board, and then putting our schools in conservatorship because only 18% of NES can pass an English test proficiently doesn't help either the NES nor the ES.

I'm lucky/blessed that I have to do very little but make sure my kid has a vehicle to get to school, and he skates his way thru with As in AP and IB classes. He is not challenged, because he blows away those standardized tests. But the DoE mandates that the school must spend the majority of it's discretionary funding on making sure EVERYONE gets a 78% on English.
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      11-15-2016, 10:29 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
The issue I have with a federal DoE is that what is needed in NYC, or Chicago, or Seattle, is not very close to what is needed in my backyard. General oversight, in that we need the 3 R's: OK. But Boston probably doesn't have the level of non-English speakers entering the school systems at the levels in Oxnard. So mandating that our schools meet some arbitrary testing levels, across the board, and then putting our schools in conservatorship because only 18% of NES can pass an English test proficiently doesn't help either the NES nor the ES.

I'm lucky/blessed that I have to do very little but make sure my kid has a vehicle to get to school, and he skates his way thru with As in AP and IB classes. He is not challenged, because he blows away those standardized tests. But the DoE mandates that the school must spend the majority of it's discretionary funding on making sure EVERYONE gets a 78% on English.

But English isn't just being able to speak the language - it's also reading and writing proficiency. If anything, the fact that NY has so many immigrants and STILL outscores the south just show it isn't the DOE that's at fault here.
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      11-15-2016, 10:38 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
But English isn't just being able to speak the language - it's also reading and writing proficiency. If anything, the fact that NY has so many immigrants and STILL outscores the south just show it isn't the DOE that's at fault here.
Not trying to place blame. Only stating that having a Federal standard, applied universally across the country, obviously doesn't work. So remove a layer of red tape, and let the local levels do what makes sense in their regions, for their unique demographics.

Take those administrators in the DoE, make them into enablers who can take what is working in NY, help the south learn those techniques, and apply them to Southern demographics. IF those DoE people are capable of being supportive on that level.
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      11-15-2016, 10:54 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Not trying to place blame. Only stating that having a Federal standard, applied universally across the country, obviously doesn't work. So remove a layer of red tape, and let the local levels do what makes sense in their regions, for their unique demographics.
I'd argue it doesn't work because those states aren't doing right by their citizens. We know people can be educated, we know these standards can be met. Saying that "Well some states can't meet them, we should scrap the whole project" doesn't actually explain WHAT the problem is and WHY they can't meet their goals.
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Take those administrators in the DoE, make them into enablers who can take what is working in NY, help the south learn those techniques, and apply them to Southern demographics. IF those DoE people are capable of being supportive on that level.
That would be the exact opposite of what you initially proposed (more Federal control) which I totally agree with. Obviously, just about everyone south of the Mason Dixon line is woefully incompetent and content being so. That's a lifestyle choice that shouldn't be forced on children though.
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      11-15-2016, 10:56 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
The issue I have with a federal DoE is that what is needed in NYC, or Chicago, or Seattle, is not very close to what is needed in my backyard. General oversight, in that we need the 3 R's: OK. But Boston probably doesn't have the level of non-English speakers entering the school systems at the levels in Oxnard. So mandating that our schools meet some arbitrary testing levels, across the board, and then putting our schools in conservatorship because only 18% of NES can pass an English test proficiently doesn't help either the NES nor the ES.

I'm lucky/blessed that I have to do very little but make sure my kid has a vehicle to get to school, and he skates his way thru with As in AP and IB classes. He is not challenged, because he blows away those standardized tests. But the DoE mandates that the school must spend the majority of it's discretionary funding on making sure EVERYONE gets a 78% on English.

But English isn't just being able to speak the language - it's also reading and writing proficiency. If anything, the fact that NY has so many immigrants and STILL outscores the south just show it isn't the DOE that's at fault here.
Or it could prove that the DoE isn't doing anything productive, because the gap still exists?

The state sets teacher pay levels, and teachers in Ny average something like 3x Mississippi. That's not addressed by the DOE, of course, but would seem to make a difference in the quality of education.
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      11-15-2016, 10:58 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Not trying to place blame. Only stating that having a Federal standard, applied universally across the country, obviously doesn't work. So remove a layer of red tape, and let the local levels do what makes sense in their regions, for their unique demographics.
I'd argue it doesn't work because those states aren't doing right by their citizens. We know people can be educated, we know these standards can be met. Saying that "Well some states can't meet them, we should scrap the whole project" doesn't actually explain WHAT the problem is and WHY they can't meet their goals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Take those administrators in the DoE, make them into enablers who can take what is working in NY, help the south learn those techniques, and apply them to Southern demographics. IF those DoE people are capable of being supportive on that level.
That would be the exact opposite of what you initially proposed (more Federal control) which I totally agree with. Obviously, just about everyone south of the Mason Dixon line is woefully incompetent and content being so. That's a lifestyle choice that shouldn't be forced on children though.
But the agency has existed for decades, and the problem still exists just like it did in the beginning. That's not success.
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      11-15-2016, 11:00 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Or it could prove that the DoE isn't doing anything productive, because the gap still exists?

The state sets teacher pay levels, and teachers in Ny average something like 3x Mississippi. That's not addressed by the DOE, of course, but would seem to make a difference in the quality of education.
So again, you're advocating MORE federal control, not less.
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      11-15-2016, 11:01 AM   #36
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But the agency has existed for decades, and the problem still exists just like it did in the beginning. That's not success.
Sounds like an issue of too much state control.
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      11-15-2016, 11:10 AM   #37
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Enablers don't have control, they support the local admins to adapt their local protocol. Wouldn't need a large force of bean counters to keep track of all the schools' test scores, nor spend money on people to determine whether Common Core is better than whatever the terminology was that came before that. So we can streamline the process, maybe move some of that money into teacher salaries to improve the ratios of kids/teacher, and also provide continuous training and incentives to the teachers working the "front lines" with our youth (future)

Over the last 11 years, I have met some AMAZING educators working those front lines, as I followed my son thru school. Many of them struggled DAILY to meet the demands of both home a professional life. They shouldn't be required to sacrifice more of their family life for so much less pay then I get. So let's move some of those taxes into salaries, for those QUALITY teachers. With more reasonable salaries, we can attract some better talent that may choose to provide for THEIR families instead of those of others.
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      11-15-2016, 11:16 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Enablers don't have control, they support the local admins to adapt their local protocol. Wouldn't need a large force of bean counters to keep track of all the schools' test scores, nor spend money on people to determine whether Common Core is better than whatever the terminology was that came before that. So we can streamline the process, maybe move some of that money into teacher salaries to improve the ratios of kids/teacher, and also provide continuous training and incentives to the teachers working the "front lines" with our youth (future)
Since when does the DoE control the state budget for Education?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Over the last 11 years, I have met some AMAZING educators working those front lines, as I followed my son thru school. Many of them struggled DAILY to meet the demands of both home a professional life. They shouldn't be required to sacrifice more of their family life for so much less pay then I get. So let's move some of those taxes into salaries, for those QUALITY teachers. With more reasonable salaries, we can attract some better talent that may choose to provide for THEIR families instead of those of others.
I totally agree, but that's a state issue - not a federal one. Abolishing the DoE won't change that Florida put a freeze on teacher pay, or that Mississipi uses education funds to shore up it's budget.
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      11-15-2016, 11:19 AM   #39
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All those funds sent to the DoE are then redirected to locals, without any increase on Main street.

OK, so now tell me why you think we NEED the DoE.
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      11-15-2016, 11:22 AM   #40
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All those funds sent to the DoE are then redirected to locals, without any increase on Main street.

OK, so now tell me why you think we NEED the DoE.
Well for one, sending revenue to the states that need it to fund education - I think money put aside for education should ONLY be used to fund education,even on a state level. Grants and loans are federally funded - and I think there needs to be some accountability and measurement of progress for students, you wouldn't get that with a state by state system.
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      11-15-2016, 11:53 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Well for one, sending revenue to the states that need it to fund education - I think money put aside for education should ONLY be used to fund education,even on a state level. Grants and loans are federally funded - and I think there needs to be some accountability and measurement of progress for students, you wouldn't get that with a state by state system.
<sarcasm> Unless Bernie somehow takes over and gets them all free college </sarcasm>

Granted. So we have to meet somewhere in the middle, where certain parts of the DoE are streamlined/reduced, and we establish a core mission for the department that includes some of these areas where it makes sense.

Couldn't some other existing department, which already handles things like money and grants, take over that specific area, and utilize the existing infrastructure instead of having 2 departments doing it? Duplication of effort, reducing the overall footprint of government, is a positive thing in my book. And I have worked federal and municipal government my entire career.
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      11-15-2016, 11:53 AM   #42
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Or it could prove that the DoE isn't doing anything productive, because the gap still exists?

The state sets teacher pay levels, and teachers in Ny average something like 3x Mississippi. That's not addressed by the DOE, of course, but would seem to make a difference in the quality of education.
So again, you're advocating MORE federal control, not less.
No - less federal control...
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      11-15-2016, 11:55 AM   #43
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<sarcasm> Unless Bernie somehow takes over and gets them all free college </sarcasm>

Granted. So we have to meet somewhere in the middle, where certain parts of the DoE are streamlined/reduced, and we establish a core mission for the department that includes some of these areas where it makes sense.

Couldn't some other existing department, which already handles things like money and grants, take over that specific area, and utilize the existing infrastructure instead of having 2 departments doing it? Duplication of effort, reducing the overall footprint of government, is a positive thing in my book. And I have worked federal and municipal government my entire career.
That's what the DoE is doing, that's what it does - if anything, it's power needs to expand.
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      11-15-2016, 11:58 AM   #44
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No - less federal control...
You can't have it both ways.
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