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      10-15-2018, 06:41 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Not defending, because that doesn't matter to me... I mean, DC is a leftist city, much easier for people to attend Obama's inauguration than for people to travel from the Midwest to attend Trump's, but the size really doesn't matter to me. But:

Did he really say the crowds locally or "spectators" in general? Because I'd even agree more people saw his inauguration than many other presidents (his was the first I saw, from here)
Honestly I don't remember much about it, except for the fact that in the very first press briefing Mr. Spicer gets up there with photos and tries to tell us all we had lying eyes basically.

It was just an "UGH" moment. heh
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      10-15-2018, 06:41 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Not defending, because that doesn't matter to me... I mean, DC is a leftist city, much easier for people to attend Obama's inauguration than for people to travel from the Midwest to attend Trump's, but the size really doesn't matter to me. But:

Did he really say the crowds locally or "spectators" in general? Because I'd even agree more people saw his inauguration than many other presidents (his was the first I saw, from here)
We all know Obama had a bigger crowd because so many Trump supporters were at work (tongue in cheek)

Also, so many voted against the other candidate. Probably more so than any election.
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      10-15-2018, 06:49 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Interestingly (but not surprisingly) that CNN reports the test as successful proof and makes no mention of the Cherokee Nation statement...
CNN is covering it tonight. As I type this, in fact.

Also, I don't think Warren ever claimed tribal status with any tribe, did she?

"Family histories" are notoriously inaccurate - are they not? Hell, one of the testing services even made an entire ad about it; the guy who grew up thinking he was German, but found out he was majority Scottish and no German ancestry. Right?

Now, if she ever used, or attempted to use, her claimed Native American status for any benefit at any point along her career - that's fair game for criticism.
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      10-15-2018, 06:50 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by gjm120 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
So you are not a complete Trump apologist?
You know I'm not. It's just the absolute nonsense and (IMO) misbehavior of his obsessed detractors is worse for the country than he is. I mean anybody that triggers Rachel Maddow can't be all bad.
Not really familiar with Rachel Maddow. Haven't watched a second of MSNBC since the 2008 democratic convention.
MSNBC is not my cup of tea.
But LUPS loves her, for some reason
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      10-15-2018, 06:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Interestingly (but not surprisingly) that CNN reports the test as successful proof and makes no mention of the Cherokee Nation statement...
CNN is covering it tonight. As I type this, in fact.

Also, I don't think Warren ever claimed tribal status with any tribe, did she?

"Family histories" are notoriously inaccurate - are they not? Hell, one of the testing services even made an entire ad about it; the guy who grew up thinking he was German, but found out he was majority Scottish and no German ancestry. Right?

Now, if she ever used, or attempted to use, her claimed Native American status for any benefit at any point along her career - that's fair game for criticism.
Sure, because claiming your Indian equals claiming you're German when you're Scottish.

Nice argument
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      10-15-2018, 06:51 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Sure, because claiming your Indian equals claiming you're German when you're Scottish.

Nice argument

Try reading my post again, maybe slower this time. I have confidence you'll get it.
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      10-15-2018, 06:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
CNN is covering it tonight. As I type this, in fact.

Also, I don't think Warren ever claimed tribal status with any tribe, did she?

"Family histories" are notoriously inaccurate - are they not? Hell, one of the testing services even made an entire ad about it; the guy who grew up thinking he was German, but found out he was majority Scottish and no German ancestry. Right?

Now, if she ever used, or attempted to use, her claimed Native American status for any benefit at any point along her career - that's fair game for criticism.
“Now, if she ever used, or attempted to use, her claimed Native American status for any benefit at any point along her career - that's fair game for criticism.”
She did, as I understand it. All along her whole career. The only real debate on that appears to be whether or not those giving her her acceptance here and there and cushy jobs relied on that or not.
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      10-15-2018, 06:53 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Sure, because claiming your Indian equals claiming you're German when you're Scottish.

Nice argument

Try reading my post again, maybe slower this time. I have confidence you'll get it.
I did, but I can't get the point you're trying to make if different than what I typed...
Care to elaborate what message you're trying to convey? Even if you're just being devil's advocate.
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      10-15-2018, 06:56 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Not really familiar with Rachel Maddow. Haven't watched a second of MSNBC since the 2008 democratic convention.
MSNBC is not my cup of tea.
But LUPS loves her, for some reason
Worth watching just to get a sense of what quite a few people are hearing. It's usually a short view as it's all so predictable and redundant.


BTW - I put people on my ignore list mainly to resist the temptation to respond to posts. But as I've just shown I blew that goal and confused some people in the process.
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      10-15-2018, 06:57 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gjm120 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Not really familiar with Rachel Maddow. Haven't watched a second of MSNBC since the 2008 democratic convention.
MSNBC is not my cup of tea.
But LUPS loves her, for some reason
Worth watching just to get a sense of what quite a few people are hearing. It's usually a short view as it's all so predictable and redundant.


BTW - I put people on my ignore list mainly to resist the temptation to respond to posts. But as I've just shown I blew that goal and confused some people in the process.
You're weak.
Use the app so you won't fall to that temptation (there's no option)
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      10-15-2018, 06:58 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herdalum View Post
“Now, if she ever used, or attempted to use, her claimed Native American status for any benefit at any point along her career - that's fair game for criticism.”
She did, as I understand it. All along her whole career. The only real debate on that appears to be whether or not those giving her her acceptance here and there and cushy jobs relied on that or not.
Hmmm, I haven't seen any reporting of such - I'll have to give it a quick Google. Even then, unless you can demonstrate that she did so knowing that she wasn't actually appreciably Native American, I say "meh".

It's unfortunate, because that means some actual Native American was likely denied opportunities, but I'm sure it happened a lot back in the day when genetic testing wasn't so readily available.

FWIW - I read something about her brothers, all of which are Republicans, corroborated her claims that this (Dad's family not wanting him to marry Warren's mother because her family was NA) was the family lore all during their lives.
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      10-15-2018, 07:01 PM   #34
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She was listed under the minority section of a law teachers for-hire directory. Harvard later promoted her Native American heritage.

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      10-15-2018, 07:03 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
I did, but I can't get the point you're trying to make if different than what I typed...
Care to elaborate what message you're trying to convey? Even if you're just being devil's advocate.
Maybe this will help:


Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
CNN is covering it tonight. As I type this, in fact.

Also, I don't think Warren ever claimed tribal status with any tribe, did she?

"Family histories" are notoriously inaccurate - are they not? Hell, one of the testing services even made an entire ad about it; the guy who grew up thinking he was German, but found out he was majority Scottish and no German ancestry. Right?

Now, if she ever used, or attempted to use, her claimed Native American status for any benefit at any point along her career - that's fair game for criticism.
There is no attempted comparison between mistaken claims of any specific ancestry one vs. the other.

The point is that "family histories" are so pervasively inaccurate that one of the companies even used the scenario in one of their ad campaigns. Essentially pitching - What you think about your ancestry is probably wrong, use us to find out the real truth.

Clearer now?
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      10-15-2018, 07:05 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
She was listed under the minority section of a law teachers for-hire directory. Harvard later promoted her Native American heritage.

I'm part Himalayan Doberman.

Harvard needed better record checkers, evidently.

Back in the 60s, or whenever Warren was there, they didn't require anything more than "My mom has always said we were <insert minority here>."?
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      10-15-2018, 07:09 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
I did, but I can't get the point you're trying to make if different than what I typed...
Care to elaborate what message you're trying to convey? Even if you're just being devil's advocate.
Maybe this will help:


Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
CNN is covering it tonight. As I type this, in fact.

Also, I don't think Warren ever claimed tribal status with any tribe, did she?

"Family histories" are notoriously inaccurate - are they not? Hell, one of the testing services even made an entire ad about it; the guy who grew up thinking he was German, but found out he was majority Scottish and no German ancestry. Right?

Now, if she ever used, or attempted to use, her claimed Native American status for any benefit at any point along her career - that's fair game for criticism.
There is no attempted comparison between mistaken claims of any specific ancestry one vs. the other.

The point is that "family histories" are so pervasively inaccurate that one of the companies even used the scenario in one of their ad campaigns. Essentially pitching - What you think about your ancestry is probably wrong, use us to find out the real truth.

Clearer now?
Yes, thanks for taking the time for my, and everyone slow like me, clarity.

I took one of these DNA tests as well, and heck I can claim to be anything I want. My percentages of Asian and African are higher than her Native American. And obviously I have much higher Native American DNA as well.

It's all sampling and it'd only be accurate if we had DNA of "certified" heritage. Which we can't.
Obviously we're all humans and to me that doesn't matter much.
It certainly did to her. And it failed her, as the DNA test is "fair" to a certain degree in ascertaining where your DNA comes from... the fact is she claimed (and heck still does) to be Indian... she isn't. By a long shot...

Again, by that extent everyone is everything. Then what's the point? LOL
Affirmative action is dead, and she killed it. But they can't see it.
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      10-15-2018, 07:16 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Yes, thanks for taking the time for my, and everyone slow like me, clarity.
Sure. Written communication can be notoriously clunky when attempting to communicate nuance and subtlety. It was likely as least as much a failing on my side as yours.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
I took one of these DNA tests as well, and heck I can claim to be anything I want. My percentages of Asian and African are higher than her Native American. And obviously I have much higher Native American DNA as well.
That's not really the point, though. My parents have always told me that my family is English, Irish, Scottish and a little French on my mom's side; Dutch, German and a little bit of French on my dad's side. Is that accurate? I'll know when I get my DNA results back, but I won't be at all surprised if it's not. However, I had/have no reason to doubt my parent's accounting simply out of hand. Neither did Warren. Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
It's all sampling and it'd only be accurate if we had DNA of "certified" heritage. Which we can't.
Obviously we're all humans and to me that doesn't matter much.
It certainly did to her. And it failed her, as the DNA test is "fair" to a certain degree in ascertaining where your DNA comes from... the fact is she claimed (and heck still does) to be Indian... she isn't. By a long shot...
This was nothing more than an attempted thumb in Trump's eye, that fell well short of what she was hoping. I don't expect to see her going around to tribal meetings and such in the future, so her "claims" of NA heritage will stay within the circle of politics, I'd wager.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Again, by that extent everyone is everything. Then what's the point? LOL
Affirmative action is dead, and she killed it. But they can't see it.
You're kidding yourself if you think this is going to be the nail in the affirmative action coffin...
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      10-15-2018, 07:21 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Yes, thanks for taking the time for my, and everyone slow like me, clarity.
Sure. Written communication can be notoriously clunky when attempting to communicate nuance and subtlety. It was likely as least as much a failing on my side as yours.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
I took one of these DNA tests as well, and heck I can claim to be anything I want. My percentages of Asian and African are higher than her Native American. And obviously I have much higher Native American DNA as well.
That's not really the point, though. My parents have always told me that my family is English, Irish, Scottish and a little French on my mom's side; Dutch, German and a little bit of French on my dad's side. Is that accurate? I'll know when I get my DNA results back, but I won't be at all surprised if it's not. However, I had/have no reason to doubt my parent's accounting simply out of hand. Neither did Warren. Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
It's all sampling and it'd only be accurate if we had DNA of "certified" heritage. Which we can't.
Obviously we're all humans and to me that doesn't matter much.
It certainly did to her. And it failed her, as the DNA test is "fair" to a certain degree in ascertaining where your DNA comes from... the fact is she claimed (and heck still does) to be Indian... she isn't. By a long shot...
This was nothing more than an attempted thumb in Trump's eye, that fell well short of what she was hoping. I don't expect to see her going around to tribal meetings and such in the future, so her "claims" of NA heritage will stay within the circle of politics, I'd wager.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Again, by that extent everyone is everything. Then what's the point? LOL
Affirmative action is dead, and she killed it. But they can't see it.
You're kidding yourself if you think this is going to be the nail in the affirmative action coffin...
I don't think it has anything to do with affirmative action at all. But the concept of it which is based on "race" (which I very much disagree with, as I think that's racism).

I see what you're saying and that's very sensible. People will come with evidence of her claims and I honestly did not follow her to say for certain that she was just saying "oh my parents said I come from Cherokee", or how much was she just trying to take advantage of the situation. I wouldn't be surprised either way.
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      10-15-2018, 07:27 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
I don't think it has anything to do with affirmative action at all. But the concept of it which is based on "race" (which I very much disagree with, as I think that's racism).
I certainly think we'd be much better off if we could shed ourselves of the notion of "race", we agree there. I don't hold much hope of that actually happening.



Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
I see what you're saying and that's very sensible. People will come with evidence of her claims and I honestly did not follow her to say for certain that she was just saying "oh my parents said I come from Cherokee", or how much was she just trying to take advantage of the situation. I wouldn't be surprised either way.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/el...tive-american/
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      10-15-2018, 07:32 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Interestingly (but not surprisingly) that CNN reports the test as successful proof and makes no mention of the Cherokee Nation statement...
CNN is covering it tonight. As I type this, in fact.

Also, I don't think Warren ever claimed tribal status with any tribe, did she?

"Family histories" are notoriously inaccurate - are they not? Hell, one of the testing services even made an entire ad about it; the guy who grew up thinking he was German, but found out he was majority Scottish and no German ancestry. Right?

Now, if she ever used, or attempted to use, her claimed Native American status for any benefit at any point along her career - that's fair game for criticism.
The original article linked had been modified since the time of my post.

Those who clicked it at the approximate time of my post can confirm the statement from the Cherokee Nation was left out.

Regardless, my point is that DNA tests for citizenship are trivial references at best, even for jurisdictions whose citizenship requirements are based in the principle of jus sanguinis, the ancestry must be documented.

Also, the same article notes that she does claim Cherokee and Delaware ancestry, though it is also noted that she never tried to claim it legally (which is probably a smart move since she'd be denied based on current evidence).
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      10-15-2018, 07:35 PM   #42
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At least in this forum the absent minded leftists are holding their contempt and not defending this here...
Being on the left as I am, I'm thinking if this is the best the dems can put forward...Jesus F'ing Christ we may have another 4 years of Trump...God help us all in both circumstances!!
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      10-15-2018, 07:36 PM   #43
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I seriously doubt if this matters at all to anyone who previously liked her.
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      10-15-2018, 07:45 PM   #44
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Being on the left as I am, I'm thinking if this is the best the dems can put forward...Jesus F'ing Christ we may have another 4 years of Trump...God help us all in both circumstances!!
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