[440xiGCMsport]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Agree, and it's how I'm looking at the G30. We need a spread of reviews to see how individual specifications influence the drive and resulting opinion. I'm forming the opinion the G30 is following the F10/F11 in being specification sensitive. May not be quite so sensitive, but suspension, wheel size, tires, options, are influencing the reviews.

The F10 was a pig no matter what the specification. Big and heavy. Both the e-class and A6 felt lighter on its feet especially the A6.
Doesn't look like BMW has done much to make the G30 any different if the lows from the review is brake dive and acceleration squat." That description is usually used for American cars. That said I need to go test drive one next week before commenting any further.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by goj

What happened to liking cars for what they are? Not this trend of hating on cars for what they're not.

Very good point, plus we have to see each new model in its current market place. Not where the E39 was, 15 - 20 years ago.

A few enthusiasts can completely skew how a model is viewed. Millions of customers are buying because it is a car for our time, not harping back 20-years.

Even the steering comments have to be tempered with customer demands, and where the 5-series now sits in the world market. Not simply influenced by a few hundred enthusiasts, wanting a raw steering experience, in a more refined and luxury biased model.

BMW well know that the sort of steering some enthusiasts crave for would be so out of place in the current 5-series. Customers would be complaining (as they have done) on the heavy weighing, plus many simply want precision, not any of the negative aspects of road feedback and what some would say is steering corruption.

BMW boast the front suspension on the F10 & G30 is using the wishbone setup, partly to separate the damper for better damping responses. This reduces some of the negative forces, which in a strut suspension comes through to the steering. Some see the move as adding refinement, other drivers view this as taking away some of the road feel (even if it is negative noise) and reducing feedback.

I guess we know who BMW will aim to please first... the path which generates most sales.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by 440xiGCMsport

The F10 was a pig no matter what the specification. Big and heavy. Both the e-class and A6 felt lighter on its feet especially the A6.

Big an heavy... yes agree. A pig? Is that the true picture? My E39 540i wagon had the same kerb weight as my current F11 535i Wagon. Yes, BMW figures are identical (Unladen, EU; 1845kg) for the standard specification, on both models.

Both cars have similar performance and in my experience, (over 4-years in each), drive and handle much the same. (E39 was bit more front heavy).

The E39 540i is rated, the F10 is not? I think there is a bias that is not necessarily supported by fact.

[rundmc_92]

Originally Posted by AP

regarding the steering, that's not great news.
I do miss the steering from my E39 530i msport which was nigh on perfect imho.
other reviews state it is better than the f10 , will have to see when I get a test drive.

We all know it isn't hydraulic steering, but honestly I didn't find it as bad they make it out to be. It is worlds better than the 2,3,4 and 7. And that's driving it on the road and at COTA. It doesn't perfectly mimic the hydraulic steering of the past, and you did get a bit of a floaty sensation while changing lanes, but around corners and pushing the car, I had no issues knowing what the car was doing and where it was going.

[440xiGCMsport]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Big an heavy... yes agree. A pig? Is that the true picture? My E39 540i wagon had the same kerb weight as my current F11 535i Wagon. Yes, BMW figures are identical (Unladen, EU; 1845kg) for the standard specification, on both models.

Both cars have similar performance and in my experience, (over 4-years in each), drive and handle much the same. (E39 was bit more front heavy).

The E39 540i is rated, the F10 is not? I think there is a bias that is not necessarily supported by fact.

it was a pig not so much based on weight but the feel of it compared to the e-class and A6. Those two cars just felt much lighter on it's feet compared to the 5er. wasn't comparing it to the e39.

[6ixSpd]

Originally Posted by ZigmundUK

I love how the author blames the Chinese. Like when all else fails 'them chinamen caused this!'

You do realize Porsche and BMW have flat out admitted this is why they make their steering feel super light and low effort? The Asian market doesn't want feedback, they want some bullshit pinky-steerable car with an expensive badge. Sadly manufacturers can't ignore such a large chunk of their market.

[6ixSpd]

Not a *hint* of steering feel.
Brake dive and acceleration squat.



Amazing. Bravo, BMW.

[goj]

Originally Posted by secretanchitman

It absolutely looks out of place on this car with the money you pay for it, especially considering that the 3, 4, 6, 7, X5, and X6 get this. Hell, the G30 around the world gets the digital instrument cluster so why do we have to get the half-assed one in the states?

I don't think he's being dramatic at all - it's a valid complaint and all of the promo shots have the full digital instrument cluster. For me, the lack of 4-Zone Climate Control (again!) is a big no-no and again, BMW doesn't have that option in the states for whatever reason.

Back on topic though, good to see that the car drives well but the steering not so much. I'll have to do a test drive myself and try it out.

I suggest you experience it in person. It's actually quite nice. Nicer in every way from the f10.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Blubaron79

Wouldn't be a Car and Driver or Motor Trend article if it didn't bring up Steering.

It's almost their go to crutch when they cannot find anything wrong with BMW's.

And both seldom make mention of the flaws other cars have. For example, all the new Jags (XE, XF, F-pace) have been universally panned for their atrocious interior quality, yet these mags for the most part rarely mention it. Mercs and Audis have even less steering feel than any BMW, yet they get a free pass. The new Giulia is a great driver's car but it is sub-par in every other category (interior quality, infotainment, interior dimensions, reliability, etc.)

Yes, BMW deserves criticism for watering down their steering, but don't hold a double standard.

Frankly, I feel MT lost all credibility when they got a boner over the ATS and CTS, two cars which have been absolute disasters for the Cadillac division. They can't move them to save their life, even with $10K on the hood they sit on dealer lots for 140 days. Maybe if MT focused on things other than chassis tuning and steering they would have known that the ATS/CTS have mediocre engines, transmissions, infotainment, and interiors (not bad but they have questionable fit and finish).

Oh and that recent "$399/mo w/ $0 down" comparo was garbage. You can't get even half of those cars that cheap, and the BMW is still unquestionably one of the Top 3-4 vehicles in its segment. Even if the F30 falls short in the driving dynamics dept., it's still an excellent all-rounder.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by ZigmundUK

I love how the author blames the Chinese. Like when all else fails 'them chinamen caused this!'

Well "blaming" the Chinese is spot on correct. China now dictates automotive design and engineering, not Europe or the United States. Fact is, people in countries like China and India (I know cause I'm Indian) don't give a shyt about driving dynamics. They want to be seen, show off, and be coddled in luxury. So BMW has, in turn, put more emphasis on luxury and comfort to appease to them.

It blows but such is life. I just hope the next batch of BMWs are better than the mediocre F-chassis cars. The ///M2 shows that BMW can still get it "right" when the bean counters allow them to.

[farns2345]

I'd take this 5er no problem. I haven't driven the e39 version, but currently owning a 2009 BMW 335i m sport with a manual (every car I've ever owned 15+ years has been manual) I would love to have a car that's handsome and sporty looking, pretty quick, luxurious, comfortable and easy to drive - and most of all automatic. Manual is for weekend toys not my stop and start commutes to the train station. If I wanted something faster and more analogue with feeling I'd get a base M2 or base M3 (I know not quite, but better suited for the family and it's looks awesome), but I think this new 5er would do me just fine.

[ZigmundUK]

Hmmm. I can see how pandering to a power population where sales are promised is a business decision to skew a variable one way or another.

What is not supported is why a variable was made worse when the power population in question doesn't care one way or another.

If something is worse here it's bmw's fault right?

My tuppence - I loved the car and the steering, but then I don't need formula 1 performance from a road car...

[rallybull]

Damn it. The car still rocks and rolls!

[rallybull]

Damn it. The car still rocks and rolls! Reminds me of the 2005 Buick Park Avenue.

[Blubaron79]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

And both seldom make mention of the flaws other cars have. For example, all the new Jags (XE, XF, F-pace) have been universally panned for their atrocious interior quality, yet these mags for the most part rarely mention it. Mercs and Audis have even less steering feel than any BMW, yet they get a free pass. The new Giulia is a great driver's car but it is sub-par in every other category (interior quality, infotainment, interior dimensions, reliability, etc.)

Yes, BMW deserves criticism for watering down their steering, but don't hold a double standard.

Frankly, I feel MT lost all credibility when they got a boner over the ATS and CTS, two cars which have been absolute disasters for the Cadillac division. They can't move them to save their life, even with $10K on the hood they sit on dealer lots for 140 days. Maybe if MT focused on things other than chassis tuning and steering they would have known that the ATS/CTS have mediocre engines, transmissions, infotainment, and interiors (not bad but they have questionable fit and finish).

Oh and that recent "$399/mo w/ $0 down" comparo was garbage. You can't get even half of those cars that cheap, and the BMW is still unquestionably one of the Top 3-4 vehicles in its segment. Even if the F30 falls short in the driving dynamics dept., it's still an excellent all-rounder.

You just nailed it. Yes.. all the other brands get a pass, and yes BMW had watered some things down.

I drove an ATS 4 years ago and I liked it, but the engine sucked, and the Cue system was garbage. If it had a real engine I might actually consider one.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ZigmundUK

Hmmm. I can see how pandering to a power population where sales are promised is a business decision to skew a variable one way or another.

What is not supported is why a variable was made worse when the power population in question doesn't care one way or another.

If something is worse here it's bmw's fault right?

My tuppence - I loved the car and the steering, but then I don't need formula 1 performance from a road car...

I don't believe it is just the Chinese market. Europe certainly has moved to more comfort and luxury. Merc and Audi both seeing comfort as a top priority. Our UK motoring press supporting and scoring for the trend to more luxury. Not surprising BMW will be included in this trend.

We are told by BMW that the UK and the USA want runflat tires, yes want them. You wouldn't think so from car forums like this one, but we don't represent the typical UK or US customer, do we?

Same for lighter steering, UK market has been complaining to BMW about the over heavy steering in past generation models. BMW have listened, they give the current customer base what sells most cars.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by 440xiGCMsport

it was a pig not so much based on weight but the feel of it compared to the e-class and A6. Those two cars just felt much lighter on it's feet compared to the 5er. wasn't comparing it to the e39.

See where you are coming from, but personally I'm interested in how different generations of BMW models compare. In this case, does the G30 really make for a better car above previous models?

[raysspl]

You can say "expensive options" again...

[ZigmundUK]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I don't believe it is just the Chinese market. Europe certainly has moved to more comfort and luxury. Merc and Audi both seeing comfort as a top priority. Our UK motoring press supporting and scoring for the trend to more luxury. Not surprising BMW will be included in this trend.

We are told by BMW that the UK and the USA want runflat tires, yes want them. You wouldn't think so from car forums like this one, but we don't represent the typical UK or US customer, do we?

Same for lighter steering, UK market has been complaining to BMW about the over heavy steering in past generation models. BMW have listened, they give the current customer base what sells most cars.

Good points as always Pete.

[Attila7]

So, given that we have all kinds of options for engine and suspension, why can't we have options for steering?

Car companies are pushing the all electric steering so they can more easily add self parking and now the self driving features. It's all about money, nothing to do with what buyers want.

Some companies have listened to Steve Jobs - Consumers don't know what they want, until we show it to them.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Attila7

So, given that we have all kinds of options for engine and suspension, why can't we have options for steering?

Car companies are pushing the all electric steering so they can more easily add self parking and now the self driving features. It's all about money, nothing to do with what buyers want.

Some companies have listened to Steve Jobs - Consumers don't know what they want, until we show it to them.

I thought we could have steering options. Besides the modes, what about IAS with VSS? But how many bother with a more advanced and sport influenced setup? Certainly not in the UK, IAS it is a rare option in the F10. I wager it will be just as rare in the G30.

I don't follow the "nothing to do with what buyers want", conclusion. I see it the other way, BMW are giving the typical BMW buyer the car they want. Hence why some users see a dilution of core values, even the brand.

Of course it is about making money. I've been in business and if you design product which customers want, you succeed.

[Eric500]

I test drove the a5 and s5 yesterday. There wasn't much feel there either and the s5 was pretty light as well. Just as light as the g30 I drove. Both in comfort and the 540 didn't have m sport package.

Also the s5 has more turbo lag than the 540i.

But Audi isn't known as the ultimate driving machine so they get a pass or something