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      01-16-2017, 12:55 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by SamM_UK View Post
Electric motors are even simpler than combustion engines, less moving parts. Not to mention instant torque. Just a flat solid torque curve that a big block V8 would be envious of.

The big sticking point is as you already point out battery density, and of course charge speed.

Until you can fit 500 miles worth of batteries into the space a fuel tank takes up, and charge that battery in less than 5 minutes the uptake simply won't be there.
Its only simple if you ignore the need for a source of power (electricity)

Once you look at the entire equasion it becomes just as complicated if not more complicated
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      01-16-2017, 12:55 PM   #112
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Which is why I said

"The big sticking point is as you already point out battery density, and of course charge speed.

Until you can fit 500 miles worth of batteries into the space a fuel tank takes up, and charge that battery in less than 5 minutes the uptake simply won't be there."

Never said batteries were "simple". Electric motors are undeniably simpler than combustion engines.

Trying to agree with you here, but I guess the other thread has set you into combat mode
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      01-16-2017, 01:08 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by SamM_UK View Post
Which is why I said

"The big sticking point is as you already point out battery density, and of course charge speed.

Until you can fit 500 miles worth of batteries into the space a fuel tank takes up, and charge that battery in less than 5 minutes the uptake simply won't be there."

Never said batteries were "simple". Electric motors are undeniably simpler than combustion engines.

Trying to agree with you here, but I guess the other thread has set you into combat mode
But it goes far beyond that

The weight of batteries exceeds that of fuel by a significant margin

There's the issue of parity wrt taxation of "fuel"

Lack of fueling stations, a billing model and power distribution/generation

There are other issues as well
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      01-16-2017, 01:11 PM   #114
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Indeed.

Well, if we can put a man on the moon and an orangutan in the white house, anything's possible eh!
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      01-16-2017, 01:25 PM   #115
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There's no "We" when it comes to putting multiple men on the moon....and the US did it at massive cost to tax payers.

Possible and Practical are two different things....in fact they are usually mutually exclusive of one another

Back to performance vehicles though

So long as the infrastructure is lacking to achieve parity in functionality/range/etc with ICE's there will be a need for a combination of technologies (electric and ICE) and that simply results in a more complicated/expensive vehicle to produce and maintain
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      01-16-2017, 04:08 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
They said flying cars would be here 50 yrs ago also. I've even seen several companies set to go into production with them. And that was 10 and 20 yrs ago. I'm not bashing them. I'm just amazed everyone is so sure that this tech, unlike the last 5 that said exactly the same thing, and that needs technological advances that nobody knows if they are possible for a decade or more to even be practical, and unlike the previous 5 also requires new infrastructure to work, is such a certainty. Once they build charge stations everywhere, it charges in 3 min, the motors don't overheat after a few pulls, the range is 400+ miles, it performs as well or better than a current IC, costs similar, is as reliable, has an equivalent lifespan, and doesn't create massive mining and toxic waste to create, let me know.
  • Charge stations are everywhere, there is no reason to be ignorant and simply look. And, It's much easier to set them up than gas stations for sure
  • No, it will not charge in 3 min, but i will spend less time than someone at the pump even with 10-min charge, because all i have to do is park and plug in.
    Most ppl need to pump, pay, and park. For EV is just plugging in
  • No, my motors never overheated, no matter how many pulls i did
    I'm sure there are a lot of ICE cars that do though
    And of course you're going to mention track performance...And no, not planning to track my SUV anytime soon, nor would advise anyone use large cars for these activities. Get dedicated track car
  • Range of over 400? why?
    All my cars in the past barely crossed 300m mark on the single tank
    I mean 4-bangers might have a better chance, but that is no fun
  • My Tesla outperformed my Audis and Bimmers, costs similar and most reliable out of all of them
  • Lifespan should be either the same or better
    People are putting 200K miles on these driving as limo and stating no maintenance or shop visits. Cars look as new as from day 1
  • Lets not even go into environment... The amount of harm that oil production does to our planet is absolute disaster. You keep getting stuck on the toxins and recyclebility of battery, which i explained to you numerous times is not an issue with new Gigafactory.

I'm also having a hard time to believe that you cannot charge at your destination overnight. What is that location that doesn't have electricity?
Do they not have sewer either?
Care to share address (approximate is fine) ?

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      01-16-2017, 04:26 PM   #117
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Charge stations are not everywhere, not by any stretch of the imagination

Once you're a little outside of the I95 corridor its challenging

Out for a drive up 91 through Mass/Vt/NH and there's quite literally nothing between brattleboro and canada

All of vermont is dicey......

https://www.tesla.com/findus#/bounds...e=concord%20nh

As far as electric generations goes, unless you're willing to go to nuclear power generation a very large percentage of power to run that electric car comes from dino sources
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      01-16-2017, 04:43 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
Charge stations are not everywhere, not by any stretch of the imagination

Once you're a little outside of the I95 corridor its challenging

Out for a drive up 91 through Mass/Vt/NH and there's quite literally nothing between brattleboro and canada

All of vermont is dicey......

https://www.tesla.com/findus#/bounds...e=concord%20nh

As far as electric generations goes, unless you're willing to go to nuclear power generation a very large percentage of power to run that electric car comes from dino sources
You are not limited to Supercharges only, which network is rapidly growing and will cover most areas before you know it.
There are Charpoint stations everywhere, Chademo, etc
Fast charges popping up daily
They are installed now in garages, hotels, parking lots, everywhere.
In no time they will outnumber gas stations.
I'm gas free household for 3yrs and trust me, i dont miss it!

BTW, you forgot to press Supercharger button in your link
https://www.tesla.com/findus#/bounds...e=concord%20nh
That's why you dont see much
Also, cool site:
https://supercharge.info/
click on red icon and pick "circle on" to see the distance between them
Vermont looks good to me

P.S. Luck of information and miss-information is what kills it for EVs
Some people are still in last century in terms of EV knowledge

Last edited by AndreyATC; 01-16-2017 at 04:52 PM..
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      01-16-2017, 04:57 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
You are not limited to Supercharges only, which network is rapidly growing and will cover most areas before you know it.
There are Charpoint stations everywhere, Chademo, etc
Fast charges popping up daily
They are installed now in garages, hotels, parking lots, everywhere.
In no time they will outnumber gas stations.
I'm gas free household for 3yrs and trust me, i dont miss it!

BTW, you forgot to press Supercharger button in your link
https://www.tesla.com/findus#/bounds...e=concord%20nh

That's why you dont see much

P.S. Luck of information and miss-information is what kills it for EVs
If it works for you then great

It doesnt work for a lot of folks

I dont think I would ever buy into the electric car model for a LOT of reasons

Cost, complexity, difficulty in tshooting/repair

Dependency on electricity to....I've been through too many extended outages due to weather/other....and there's no EV equivalent of a couple 5gal jugs of fuel

Not to mention I'm just a petro head....I like CI/IC engines....its a viceral thing

I have a buddy thats loves his tesla....but he made a comment about most EV folks he knows......they are a lot like apple fanatics

To each their own.....variety.....you know the rest of the expression
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      01-16-2017, 05:49 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
If it works for you then great

It doesnt work for a lot of folks

I dont think I would ever buy into the electric car model for a LOT of reasons

Cost, complexity, difficulty in tshooting/repair

Dependency on electricity to....I've been through too many extended outages due to weather/other....and there's no EV equivalent of a couple 5gal jugs of fuel

Not to mention I'm just a petro head....I like CI/IC engines....its a viceral thing

I have a buddy thats loves his tesla....but he made a comment about most EV folks he knows......they are a lot like apple fanatics

To each their own.....variety.....you know the rest of the expression
I agree that the infrastructure is lacking. Until EV batteries can be topped off as easily and painlessly as fuel then EV's can be accepted by the general public. While charge stations are popping up, they are popping up very slowly. It does not help Tesla stations only cater to Tesla cars (I think). Just like ALL fuel stations with gas powered cara, EV's should have a standardized fast charging plug. Like all these auto-pilot crap would work better if there is a system all cars can talk and send road feeback to each other imo. We still need governments to organize and back the progress.
While I do not see Nissan Leaf owners as Apple fanatics, but Tesla owners are very much so.
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      01-16-2017, 06:27 PM   #121
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These cars cost over $1MM and they all have a V8 or a V12 in Ferrari.

Im referring to full EV like the Bolt or Tesla. Thats what BMW plans to do for ///M cars in future.

I could care less about AWD or 0-60 in less than 3sec.
There will always be faster cars, its not the speed of the car but the way a car makes you feel driving it.
The great BMW M cars were never the fastest, that was always AMG, but they were always the more fun to drive.
I can assure you...BMW's plans to 'electrify' the ///M brand bear almost no resemblance to a Chevy Volt or even a Tesla for the most part.

I get your point about the visceral nature of an internal combustion engine, but then again people still resist facebook/twitter/instagram as the modern platform for business development and marketing, in favor of TV ads and newspapers...so I guess some people are just stuck in the past.

Gotta embrace the change and move with the times!
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      01-16-2017, 06:58 PM   #122
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...but then again people still resist facebook/twitter/instagram as the modern platform for business development and marketing, in favor of TV ads and newspapers...so I guess some people are just stuck in the past.
As a marketing professional, this is about as dumb of a statement as it gets.

There's nothing wrong with TV ads and newspaper ads, and until the day that NO ONE watches TV ever, or no one reads any sort of news articles ever, print advertising as a medium, and TV advertising as a medium, will not go away.

TV/Radio/Newspaper/Magazine are passive advertising mediums that reach a much wider audience at a lower per impression cost. FB/Twitter (which is dying a slow death, by the way)/Instagram is an ACTIVE medium that cost WAY more per impression but has better conversion rate. Any marketing professional worth his or her salt that would ignore one or the other (passive or active) would not last long in this industry, period.

Now. If you want to talk budget/technology/ROI, there are situations where one would favor one medium over others. A high-tech start-up with the majority of their clientele based in game dev for social media? If they're advertising on TV during Super Bowl weekend, or taking out an ad in Sports Illustrated Swim Suite edition, whoever is their marketing guy needs to be fired ASAP. An established, mainstream soft drink company that spends more than 80% of their advertising budget solely on FB/Instagram to convert marketshare? Same thing. Fire that marketing guy.

Just because a "technology" is new doesn't mean it is THE solution for everyone. And you're talking with a converted electric vehicle guy (i've got 2 pure plug-in EVs in the garage right now). The infrastructure is at least 5 years away from mass adaptation here in the U.S., and maybe even further for a global solution. Until batteries are standardized, can be quickly swapped out in 5 minutes at local charging stations much like gas, it will NOT supplant ICE as the sole solution to performance transportation.
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      01-17-2017, 03:56 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F82FTW View Post
...but then again people still resist facebook/twitter/instagram as the modern platform for business development and marketing, in favor of TV ads and newspapers...so I guess some people are just stuck in the past.
As a marketing professional, this is about as dumb of a statement as it gets.

There's nothing wrong with TV ads and newspaper ads, and until the day that NO ONE watches TV ever, or no one reads any sort of news articles ever, print advertising as a medium, and TV advertising as a medium, will not go away.

TV/Radio/Newspaper/Magazine are passive advertising mediums that reach a much wider audience at a lower per impression cost. FB/Twitter (which is dying a slow death, by the way)/Instagram is an ACTIVE medium that cost WAY more per impression but has better conversion rate. Any marketing professional worth his or her salt that would ignore one or the other (passive or active) would not last long in this industry, period.

Now. If you want to talk budget/technology/ROI, there are situations where one would favor one medium over others. A high-tech start-up with the majority of their clientele based in game dev for social media? If they're advertising on TV during Super Bowl weekend, or taking out an ad in Sports Illustrated Swim Suite edition, whoever is their marketing guy needs to be fired ASAP. An established, mainstream soft drink company that spends more than 80% of their advertising budget solely on FB/Instagram to convert marketshare? Same thing. Fire that marketing guy.

Just because a "technology" is new doesn't mean it is THE solution for everyone. And you're talking with a converted electric vehicle guy (i've got 2 pure plug-in EVs in the garage right now). The infrastructure is at least 5 years away from mass adaptation here in the U.S., and maybe even further for a global solution. Until batteries are standardized, can be quickly swapped out in 5 minutes at local charging stations much like gas, it will NOT supplant ICE as the sole solution to performance transportation.
Definitely didn't mean to allude to the fact that social media is the ONLY marketing solution and tv/print is dead. My apologies if it came across that way.

Also wasn't trying to change the topic of the thread. Really just making a (valid) comparison.

?
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      01-17-2017, 06:05 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
  • Charge stations are everywhere, there is no reason to be ignorant and simply look. And, It's much easier to set them up than gas stations for sure
  • No, it will not charge in 3 min, but i will spend less time than someone at the pump even with 10-min charge, because all i have to do is park and plug in.
    Most ppl need to pump, pay, and park. For EV is just plugging in
  • No, my motors never overheated, no matter how many pulls i did
    I'm sure there are a lot of ICE cars that do though
    And of course you're going to mention track performance...And no, not planning to track my SUV anytime soon, nor would advise anyone use large cars for these activities. Get dedicated track car
  • Range of over 400? why?
    All my cars in the past barely crossed 300m mark on the single tank
    I mean 4-bangers might have a better chance, but that is no fun
  • My Tesla outperformed my Audis and Bimmers, costs similar and most reliable out of all of them
  • Lifespan should be either the same or better
    People are putting 200K miles on these driving as limo and stating no maintenance or shop visits. Cars look as new as from day 1
  • Lets not even go into environment... The amount of harm that oil production does to our planet is absolute disaster. You keep getting stuck on the toxins and recyclebility of battery, which i explained to you numerous times is not an issue with new Gigafactory.

I'm also having a hard time to believe that you cannot charge at your destination overnight. What is that location that doesn't have electricity?
Do they not have sewer either?
Care to share address (approximate is fine) ?
1. Maybe in California, but in Florida I've seen a total of two. One for employees only at a business, the other at a hotel for hotel guests. I see tons of e85 stations though.
2. Its park, pay, pump. Takes me 2 min. If charging is 10 min, charge stations would have to be 5 times larger to be as effective and just as numerous as gas stations. Huge amount of real estate someone needs to pay for.
3.electric motors start heating up after 3 or so good pulls and loose far more effectiveness that ice engines. I don't track but now your comment on tracking makes most people need a second car to track. Most people can't afford a crappy tesla to begin with, let alone a dedicated track car also, so tracking would become something only for the wealthy elite.
4 i got 400 mile range on my 335i all day before mods for over 200k. Less stops, less station stops. Up the number of spaces again on the fueling sites.
5 car looks are owner maintenance. Battery life however is not. Batteries need changing well before 200k. That's costly, poluting, and expensive. Add that cost in and they become even more expensive.
6. The ev batteries are a real environmental hazzard. Heavy metals, mining, etc. Oil production is a way smaller impact. ANWR needs a footprint in the artic the size of a football field to produce the oil for 80 yrs of US consumption. Smaller than a single nickel plant. The electricity needed to generate the power for evs comes from where? Fossil fuels. Its an inefficient way to make power. And if you want to go to the false socialist argument that there's climate change, well I'll leave that to the new administration to correct the record.
7. I drive 300 miles each way daily for work. There's no overnight charging. And even if i do an overnight stay at a hotel, i need to as the front desk for a plug, extension cord, worry about a kid unplugging me? Its hard enough even finding a parking spot. The laughs from the desk would be thunderous.
8. Almost forgot reliability. Consumer reports just named the tesla one of the most unreliable card on the market. Teala does have reliable tow vehicles for roadside assistance. F350 diesels. Which brings me to towing. I don't see any EVs towing. Guess we won't be allowed to anymore?

Last edited by Fundguy1; 01-17-2017 at 06:24 AM..
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      01-17-2017, 09:44 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post


1. Maybe in California, but in Florida I've seen a total of two. One for employees only at a business, the other at a hotel for hotel guests. I see tons of e85 stations though.
2. Its park, pay, pump. Takes me 2 min. If charging is 10 min, charge stations would have to be 5 times larger to be as effective and just as numerous as gas stations. Huge amount of real estate someone needs to pay for.
3.electric motors start heating up after 3 or so good pulls and loose far more effectiveness that ice engines. I don't track but now your comment on tracking makes most people need a second car to track. Most people can't afford a crappy tesla to begin with, let alone a dedicated track car also, so tracking would become something only for the wealthy elite.
4 i got 400 mile range on my 335i all day before mods for over 200k. Less stops, less station stops. Up the number of spaces again on the fueling sites.
5 car looks are owner maintenance. Battery life however is not. Batteries need changing well before 200k. That's costly, poluting, and expensive. Add that cost in and they become even more expensive.
6. The ev batteries are a real environmental hazzard. Heavy metals, mining, etc. Oil production is a way smaller impact. ANWR needs a footprint in the artic the size of a football field to produce the oil for 80 yrs of US consumption. Smaller than a single nickel plant. The electricity needed to generate the power for evs comes from where? Fossil fuels. Its an inefficient way to make power. And if you want to go to the false socialist argument that there's climate change, well I'll leave that to the new administration to correct the record.
7. I drive 300 miles each way daily for work. There's no overnight charging. And even if i do an overnight stay at a hotel, i need to as the front desk for a plug, extension cord, worry about a kid unplugging me? Its hard enough even finding a parking spot. The laughs from the desk would be thunderous.
8. Almost forgot reliability. Consumer reports just named the tesla one of the most unreliable card on the market. Teala does have reliable tow vehicles for roadside assistance. F350 diesels. Which brings me to towing. I don't see any EVs towing. Guess we won't be allowed to anymore?
Again, lots of misinformation from you, as usual
1. FL has 14, not 2 superchargers and that's more than enough to do any type of driving. https://www.tesla.com/findus/list/su.../United+States
2. You need zero real estate, charging stalls are part of the parking
3. On my 3rd Tesla and never overheated. I did waaay more than 3 pulls at the time. It was fun watching Power output on my app. And no, no degradation after each pull like in ICE when it gets heat soaked.
You've heard it happened somewhere probably and now you think it's the case for all EV cars. EV motor is not affected by temperature, elevation and humidity as much as ICE. I thought you knew that
4. I'm surprised you get 400 per tank, i had less success with 335i. Though, its a small car with hwy-only miles, so that helps
5. Haha.. battery will perform at over 90% of it's capacity after 200K. it has 3000 cycles before it gets to 80% of its range, so After 750,000 miles you may think of replacing it.
http://insideevs.com/200000-miles-te...y-degradation/
6. Remember BP spill? Go around the world and see how clean oil production is. There are thousands of disaster cases you can find examples of. Keep ignoring...
Electricity comes from different sources and some of them unfortunately not so clean. But, as grid becomes cleaner, it makes thousands cars automatically less polluting. Also, it requires less energy to power EV than ICE.
I'm personally, charging with solar, so do other people.
This is becoming more popular likely
7. Please provide your route, i find it HARD to believe you even need to charge over night. Your commute is almost within the range of the battery.
Quick stop at supercharger is more than enough to meet your daily needs.
8. Reliability, yes it had it's fair amount of issues, but that happens to 1st model year to a lot of brands.
You always seem to selectively pick unfavorable info in any EV section
Almost like you're so biased that you cannot accept the fact that EVs are part of the car industry now.
Tesla:
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/24/why-c...ty-rating.html
Others:
http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/c...der-1.11016600
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      01-17-2017, 10:22 AM   #126
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1 have not SEEN any. 14 vs 10000 gas stations or hundreds of e85 is an insignificant amount
2 where? As i said I've only seen twice, and they were private. I'm in 3 or 4 different major city parking lots all over the state daily. I go to large office buildings for work. I've seen zero for public use.
3 every report i see they iverheat. Maybe you aren't pulling repeatedly to higher speeds.
4 cruise i got 27mpg. 16 gallons that's 432 mile range.
5 prius need replacing by 200k and loose a good chunk by 100k. Idk how tesla is superior when effectively its identical tech and used much more than in a hybrid
6 i live in fl. Yes i remember. Bp was caused by illegal short cuts. Even then pretty much a non event. And i live here. Now with bp leak a historical event, more stringent policies are in place to stop that. Want to really worry? Communist countries are drilling for oil in the gulf. Do you trust them more? Are they going to stop? Or are they gonna take it and leave us none?
7 route changes daily. I cover the southern half of the state. And why should i base my route or my accommodations on charging ability? How inconvenient and how much extra time and mileage would that work out to?
8 at least we agree here it has issues.
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      01-17-2017, 10:43 AM   #127
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1 have not SEEN any. 14 vs 10000 gas stations or hundreds of e85 is an insignificant amount
2 where? As i said I've only seen twice, and they were private. I'm in 3 or 4 different major city parking lots all over the state daily. I go to large office buildings for work. I've seen zero for public use.
3 every report i see they iverheat. Maybe you aren't pulling repeatedly to higher speeds.
4 cruise i got 27mpg. 16 gallons that's 432 mile range.
5 prius need replacing by 200k and loose a good chunk by 100k. Idk how tesla is superior when effectively its identical tech and used much more than in a hybrid
6 i live in fl. Yes i remember. Bp was caused by illegal short cuts. Even then pretty much a non event. And i live here. Now with bp leak a historical event, more stringent policies are in place to stop that. Want to really worry? Communist countries are drilling for oil in the gulf. Do you trust them more? Are they going to stop? Or are they gonna take it and leave us none?
7 route changes daily. I cover the southern half of the state. And why should i base my route or my accommodations on charging ability? How inconvenient and how much extra time and mileage would that work out to?
8 at least we agree here it has issues.
1. You haven't seen any because you havent looked for one
When i'm on the trip the car tells me where i can stop on my route. it's part of navigation system. I can either skip or charge on the station
2. There are people who drive a lot more than you do. Superchargers are close enough not to worry about charging.
3. when you look at the same report from different sources you may end up feeling that way
Even towing does not create a problem
5. Prius battery tech is junk
Only Tesla has cooled/heated battery, which maintains good health of the pack. It also has the highest density of all. In short, you cannot compare Tesla battery to others
8. No, we didnt agree here, Model S in fairly reliable now (CR link above, my own experience as well), older models issues are gone. Model X is great as well, I'm pretty sure CR will update their records soon, just like they did for MS

Last edited by AndreyATC; 01-17-2017 at 10:56 AM..
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      01-17-2017, 10:47 AM   #128
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Looks like quite a few charging stations in FL. Not sure if there are as many gas stations
Hundreds within a few miles
BTW, Any EV can charge from these. It is ChargePoint station
In no time they'll have entire US covered
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      01-17-2017, 11:46 AM   #129
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They should just have an M, a hybrid and an electric version of each chassis. That way everyone gets what they want. I'd buy an M2 and also buy an electric 2 series. One for daily and the other one for fun. Others can just get the hybrid version. Going fully electric will probably cause some panic
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      01-18-2017, 05:00 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Maybe you should educate yourself on how Gigafactory will produce and recycle it's batteries
And the operation as a whole
Unfortunately, Toyota is not doing it properly, but they still have old tech batteries, non-lithium
I think you should educate yourself. Too late for you as a owner of an electric car but is never too late.

The pollution to produce your car is way bigger than producing a IC vehicle.

Bad news for your health. I bet your house is close to a cell phone tower but you are happy for the strong signal.
Keep believing your government "safe limits" mental reinforcement.

And please, don't try your "educate yourself" nonsense. I have years in the field of electronics and EMF.
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      01-18-2017, 08:17 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Maybe you should educate yourself on how Gigafactory will produce and recycle it's batteries
And the operation as a whole
Unfortunately, Toyota is not doing it properly, but they still have old tech batteries, non-lithium
I think you should educate yourself. Too late for you as a owner of an electric car but is never too late.

The pollution to produce your car is way bigger than producing a IC vehicle.

Bad news for your health. I bet your house is close to a cell phone tower but you are happy for the strong signal.
Keep believing your government "safe limits" mental reinforcement.

And please, don't try your "educate yourself" nonsense. I have years in the field of electronics and EMF.
Ok
I'm not going to judge your professional skills in EMF and etc. I do have a question though
Are you still in the field?
Do you know that not all EVs created equal?
Please elaborate on pollution matter
I just can't see Tesla's would be so horrible for environment, especially when everyone around burns tons of gasoline. I mean, you need to burn gas to produce gas. Then you need to burn gas to deliver gas. Then you burn gas to get from point a to b.
As for the EMF, what do you think about this article?
You think your car is any safer?
http://www.createhealthyhomes.com/car_EMFs.php

Here is another one from CR
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...WantsFull=true

So, Tesla generates 1 mG, while Chevy Cobalt 30 mG. And this with safety standard of 2000

P.S. My house is far from the cell tower and I'd like to keep it that way. I also have minimal wi-fi at the house. Everything is hardwired, except phones and tablets. No cordless phones
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      01-18-2017, 08:28 PM   #132
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Sorry, burning gas, carbon emissions, are not bad. Cows make more than people. Mining and refining nickel, that's toxic heavy metal stuff. That's bad.
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