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      10-06-2019, 11:06 AM   #23
Maynard
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How about we just get rid of the biased accounting in the tax codes and make the big earners actually pay a fair share. Is that rampant communism? How is it that the same clear headed straight thinking economists who can see right thru the BS of universal income can still keep getting behind the myth of trickle down economics? Let's go over it again, slower so you poor rubes get it - it all matters which end of the economy you pour in the free government money.....
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      10-06-2019, 11:16 AM   #24
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If it was used to streamline all government benefits (aka, no welfare, no snap, etc) then I could start to get on board. If it's in addition to these, no thanks.



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Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
How about we just get rid of the biased accounting in the tax codes and make the big earners actually pay a fair share. Is that rampant communism? How is it that the same clear headed straight thinking economists who can see right thru the BS of universal income can still keep getting behind the myth of trickle down economics? Let's go over it again, slower so you poor rubes get it - it all matters which end of the economy you pour in the free government money.....
Define "fair share" please.
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      10-06-2019, 12:01 PM   #25
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It's a stupid idea because the psychology behind it is fundamentally flawed.

It's counting on people to use that money wisely.

Look at all the data on metrics like credit card debt, auto loans, drug/alcohol expenditures, etc. Most Americans, especially poorly educated ones, won't save and invest that money wisely. They'll blow it on Jordans, weed, booze, and McDonalds. Most of my patients are on Medicaid and/or welfare and use their money to eat like shit, smoke cigarettes, and drink 20 beers in a sitting. My tax dollars are funding it.

Human beings inherently crave instant gratification over delayed gratification. This has been well researched. Give people free money and it'll be a disaster.
Didnt you start practicing like a year ago? Already burnt and bitter? It's too soon young man, too soon. Get out of primary care and go be a dermatologist. Collect fat cash from rich old ladies with moles.

My wife used to discount office visits for low income, cash patients. What she found over the years is that the less she charged for her medical services, the less people followed it. I think the same is true for nearly anything that you don't have to work for. Free college for all? People will sign up and fuck right off till they get kicked out. Free $1k per month for every citizen? Gone in a flash. The people who actually "need" that money will just blow it in the first day.

My folks fostered a troubled teen who had been in and out of foster homes in Florida her entire life. This young lady won a lawsuit against the state of Florida for abuses she suffered in a few of the homes. Walked with roughly $1M after legal fees and what not. The first thing she did was to throw a gigantic party for all her friends. Limos and new clothes for everyone. Even rented a tiger with a trainer to just walk around the party. Next was a Mercedes. Money was completely gone in 6 months. She now works in a gas station convenience store. Millionaire to mini-mart. Winning.
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      10-06-2019, 12:27 PM   #26
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Has the original poster commented recently? What conclusions has he/she drawn?

someguywithanm3, what do you think so far?
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      10-06-2019, 12:39 PM   #27
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Alaska Permanent Fund has been providing an annual dividend to it's residents since 1982.
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      10-06-2019, 01:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catskillclimber View Post
Alaska Permanent Fund has been providing an annual dividend to it's residents since 1982.
Not direct correlation but surely some contributory factors...

https://www.addictioncenter.com/comm...g-death-rates/
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      10-06-2019, 02:31 PM   #29
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Quote:
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Define "fair share" please.
And ďbig earnersĒ as well.
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      10-06-2019, 02:49 PM   #30
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Fair share and big earners.

That ones that make more than one $ above my income.
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      10-06-2019, 02:49 PM   #31
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      10-07-2019, 08:37 AM   #32
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I see the drug epidemic just getting worse as people lives become more hollow and meaningless.
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      10-07-2019, 10:40 AM   #33
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yeah this will work....

There are so many questions that no one can ever answer about this.

Will everyone get the same amount? Regardless of Income, Location, Debt, Dependents, Etc. If yes, you will still have the poor angry at the rich for getting money, similar to them complaining that the rich arent paying their "fair share" in taxes. You also will have people in high cost of living areas upset that their money doesnt go as far as someone in BFE middle America
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      10-11-2019, 06:53 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Has the original poster commented recently? What conclusions has he/she drawn?

someguywithanm3, what do you think so far?
I wanted to know what hard working/successful people thought.

I think it would help the economy by promoting spending, but that it would be short lived. Prices would increase and we'd be back to square one.
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      10-12-2019, 01:50 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
How about we just get rid of the biased accounting in the tax codes and make the big earners actually pay a fair share. Is that rampant communism? How is it that the same clear headed straight thinking economists who can see right thru the BS of universal income can still keep getting behind the myth of trickle down economics? Let's go over it again, slower so you poor rubes get it - it all matters which end of the economy you pour in the free government money.....
John Kerry, 2004: "....oh yes, the rich absolutely MUST pay their fair share....ummm, 12.2% sounds about right, don't you think Tah-ray-zah?"
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      10-12-2019, 01:51 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
If it was used to streamline all government benefits (aka, no welfare, no snap, etc) then I could start to get on board. If it's in addition to these, no thanks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
How about we just get rid of the biased accounting in the tax codes and make the big earners actually pay a fair share. Is that rampant communism? How is it that the same clear headed straight thinking economists who can see right thru the BS of universal income can still keep getting behind the myth of trickle down economics? Let's go over it again, slower so you poor rubes get it - it all matters which end of the economy you pour in the free government money.....
Define "fair share" please.
good luck getting an answer on "fair share".
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      10-12-2019, 01:55 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catskillclimber View Post
Alaska Permanent Fund has been providing an annual dividend to it's residents since 1982.
..and that money comes from petrobucks. AOC will put a stop to that.
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      10-12-2019, 04:05 PM   #38
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My take on it....it would be a cycle that kept replaying itself after a certain amount of time. Here's an example using me.

My brother and I receive the same payout each month. Now he and I live quite differently. I tend to be a saver.....he is the type that cash burns a hole in his pocket.

After so many years of him spending and me saving, again I am looked at as having an advantage as I have more money than him. So guess what, he decides it's not fair.....and that it's time to "redistribute" the wealth again.

I see it as an unending cycle as my kid tends to be like me, while his tend to be like him.

Maybe a bad analogy, but it's the way I view it. And I grew up poor. I fought, scraped, and worked for what I have now. And it means I did without .....even during times when I really didn't have to....but had a longer term view in mind.
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      10-13-2019, 01:41 AM   #39
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Slightly different to a universal income idea, but let me explain my views on how things could be adjusted to make tax fairer. I pay about NZ$100k in income tax per year, about US$63k and as such I am in the top couple of percentile of pay.

I'm not sure on what the numbers are in the USA but over here something like 50% of people pay no net tax at all - in NZ that works out to about $60k. This is due to our 'working for families' subsidy where if you have kids and earn under a certain about you get credits back, discounts on public transport below what the true cost is, healthcare, education costs etc etc.

So why tax the first $60k or so of earnings then give all of these subsidies which surely just creates bureaucratic waste and allows people to game the system. But instead we start taxing from the first dollar earnt which just doesn't make sense to me - especially as we have recently been raising the minimum wage quite dramatically which has a flow on effect of creating inflation for things like McDonalds and Starbucks retail pricing without benefitting the worker as much as removing income tax up to that $60k mark.


At my income I'd be happy to pay a bit more tax. In saying that I choose to drink fairly expensive Whisky and Cognac (alcohol is heavily taxed here) and probably contribute about $5k a year in petrol tax as well.

What I also find strange is that we have a top tax rate of 33% that kicks in at NZ$70k which means that a huge number of people are actually on the top tax rate!
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      11-01-2019, 09:20 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
Slightly different to a universal income idea, but let me explain my views on how things could be adjusted to make tax fairer. I pay about NZ$100k in income tax per year, about US$63k and as such I am in the top couple of percentile of pay.

I'm not sure on what the numbers are in the USA but over here something like 50% of people pay no net tax at all - in NZ that works out to about $60k. This is due to our 'working for families' subsidy where if you have kids and earn under a certain about you get credits back, discounts on public transport below what the true cost is, healthcare, education costs etc etc.

So why tax the first $60k or so of earnings then give all of these subsidies which surely just creates bureaucratic waste and allows people to game the system. But instead we start taxing from the first dollar earnt which just doesn't make sense to me - especially as we have recently been raising the minimum wage quite dramatically which has a flow on effect of creating inflation for things like McDonalds and Starbucks retail pricing without benefitting the worker as much as removing income tax up to that $60k mark.


At my income I'd be happy to pay a bit more tax. In saying that I choose to drink fairly expensive Whisky and Cognac (alcohol is heavily taxed here) and probably contribute about $5k a year in petrol tax as well.

What I also find strange is that we have a top tax rate of 33% that kicks in at NZ$70k which means that a huge number of people are actually on the top tax rate!
you lost me at "id be happy to pay more tax"

no one is happy to just give up money theyve earned.

but if that truly does make you happy, lemme send you my address. I take cash, check or card.
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      11-01-2019, 09:26 AM   #41
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I post what i mention in yang video

So let me get this right, the federal budget is 3.9 trillion right now and he purposes a program that 3.3 trillion if it only for citizen and we have 0% fraud occuring. So to pay for this program you have to tax all current tax payers 2000+ dollars a month............... yea this idea is quite dumb. so by having the government seize 40% of the yearly economic output.... to give people below abject poverty income.
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      11-01-2019, 05:24 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
I post what i mention in yang video

So let me get this right, the federal budget is 3.9 trillion right now and he purposes a program that 3.3 trillion if it only for citizen and we have 0% fraud occuring. So to pay for this program you have to tax all current tax payers 2000+ dollars a month............... yea this idea is quite dumb. so by having the government seize 40% of the yearly economic output.... to give people below abject poverty income.
When you consider that Social Security is about $1 trillion and that the fed govít spends another $1 trillion in deficit spending, the gap really isnít as large as you think. Taxes would certainly go up a bit (I believe Yang proposes a value-added tax that would exempt necessities) and certainy spending on other programs would be cut (which might not be a bad thing in general). Plus, those already on SNAP or other programs would have to choose one or the other.
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      11-01-2019, 05:50 PM   #43
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you lost me at "id be happy to pay more tax"

no one is happy to just give up money theyve earned.

but if that truly does make you happy, lemme send you my address. I take cash, check or card.
I perhaps could rephrase that. Lets go with: I'd be happy to may more tax, but on things that I deem worthwhile, such as road maintenance
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      11-01-2019, 06:06 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
When you consider that Social Security is about $1 trillion and that the fed govít spends another $1 trillion in deficit spending, the gap really isnít as large as you think. Taxes would certainly go up a bit (I believe Yang proposes a value-added tax that would exempt necessities) and certainy spending on other programs would be cut (which might not be a bad thing in general). Plus, those already on SNAP or other programs would have to choose one or the other.
VAT tax generally result in a shrinking of the economy europe is the poster child of that which will make a program plus all other federal government current expense eat up more then 40% of the economy. Throw in the local and states and most likely 60 to 80% of economic output will be going to the government to piss away. Mind you my calculation was base on all full fledge citizens being entitle to the program it gets much worse when you add legal and illegal migrants.
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