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View Poll Results: What was the result of the testimony of Mr. Mueller?
Meh...nothing new. SSDD. 24 38.10%
Damning for the democrats. 21 33.33%
Damning for the republicans. 2 3.17%
Damning for Mr. Trump 7 11.11%
Dumpster Fire for the entire republic. 20 31.75%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

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      07-27-2019, 09:44 AM   #111
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At this point in time, I am not sure it could be proven either way. However, given time to study it enough and if they could drill down exactly who was targeted in what manner I think they could figure it out to some extent.

However, I don't really think that is the point. No outside government should be trying to influence our elections in the manner that Russia did leading up to the 2016 election no matter who the candidate is. And I think the Federal government (read that the Senate) sitting on their ass doing basically nothing about it is a big problem. Trump refuses to even acknowledge the problem because his fragile ego thinks he would be some kind of illegitimate president if he did.

But as a side note and somewhat related. I grew up through the 60's, 70's, and 80's where there was a very distinct possibility that we would go to war with Russia and that is all you ever heard about. We even had drills in school over it. Russia has never been our friend even to this day and no matter what Trump says, Putin is an evil person. I have very strong feelings about candidates doing business with Russia and lying about it. Trump lied through his teeth during the campaign about this time and again.

So I will tell you one vote that was without a doubt effected by Trump's shady dealings with Russia during campaign...mine. I would have never voted for Trump had I known this.
And now you will get to vote for a virtue signaling, illegal loving, man hating, white hating, pos to prove a point and cause more damage good plan.
Better than a lying traitor.
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      07-27-2019, 10:50 AM   #112
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Best summary ever for the "Mueller" investigation ever:
https://www.facebook.com/PickParis/v...8153803/?t=226
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      07-27-2019, 10:54 AM   #113
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Details matter and the details are not analogous between the two. Basically Clinton was impeached for lying under oath about an affair he had with an extremely, comparatively, young subordinate. Trump was never disposed, because he's a pathological liar, and it appears that his written statements provide a lot of wiggle room.

People forget that Trump et al. really didn't expect to win the campaign and their actions support it. They were oblivious to what was going on and amateurish.

BTW, exonerated. like collusion, is not a legal term used by prosecutors. It's fluff.

It was clear that members around Trump would not decline the receipt of information on Hillary. That's different from soliciting and coordinating with others to obtain information.
Lewinsky-Sorry-the young lady was between 22 and 25 years of age and knew what the heck she was doing. The whole prosecution was puritanical and ridiculous in comparison to what we have learned from the Mueller report where the sanctity of our election system is under attack by a sworn foreign adversary.

Our current situation is a much, much more serious threat to our nation than Bill Clinton's affairs of the heart.
And so what? Again, Clinton was impeached for lying. That gave the GOP a legal justification for impeachment. Clinton should've told the truth but hubris got in the way. At the moment the Dems can only go after Trump's lack of character.

Why are you tying election interference, not the first time the US has been interfered with, as a reason to impeach Trump?
Trump directed others to lie and lied himself. How is that different?
All politicians lie. The real issue is that there was insufficient evidence for meeting the legal definition of obstruction.
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      07-27-2019, 11:03 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by ScottyRyan2019 View Post
Martha Stewart.
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Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Scooter Libby

So...

a) Both of these had a charge of obstruction in conjunction with a perjury charge. It's the perjury charge that is needed to align with obstruction. As such, my original statement still stands - in that an obstruction charge is nearly never found with a guilty verdict as a standalone charge. Trump couldn't have a perjury charge levied, as he was never disposed.

b) Even if you want to forgo my comment above - you still listed 2 cases. Ever. In nearly 250 years of jurisprudence. I would call that a solid piece of evidence confirming my statement of:

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...odds of a prosecutor taking it up is damn slim...chance of a guilty verdict in court would be nearly zero...
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      07-27-2019, 11:06 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Better than a lying traitor.
As much as I dislike Trump,

(a) I would hardly call him a traitor (this is a crime that is punishable by the death penalty. You really feel he reached the level of being put to death?

(b) You honestly feel that any of the current Democrat candidates for 2020 (sans perhaps Biden) would make this country better than it currently is? You really think you would be better off if one of them was the president and enacted the policies they are promoting in the primary debates?

Honest questions.
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      07-27-2019, 11:24 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
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Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Better than a lying traitor.
As much as I dislike Trump,

(a) I would hardly call him a traitor (this is a crime that is punishable by the death penalty. You really feel he reached the level of being put to death?

(b) You honestly feel that any of the current Democrat candidates for 2020 (sans perhaps Biden) would make this country better than it currently is? You really think you would be better off if one of them was the president and enacted the policies they are promoting in the primary debates?

Honest questions.
Obviously I do. That's why I proudly plan on voting for John Cornyn and my current GOP house representative in Congress. Good guys. I actually think most of the democratic Contenders actually care about their country. Even if I disagree with most of their policies. The same cannot be said for Trump.
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      07-27-2019, 12:08 PM   #117
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- You really feel Trump has reached the level of being put to death?
- You honestly feel that the current Democrat candidates for 2020 (sans Biden) would make this country better than it currently is? - You really think you would be better off if one of them was the president and enacted the policies they are promoting in the primary debates?
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Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
- Obviously I do.
- I actually think most of the democratic Contenders actually care about their country.


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      07-27-2019, 12:49 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Obviously I do. That's why I proudly plan on voting for John Cornyn and my current GOP house representative in Congress. Good guys. I actually think most of the democratic Contenders actually care about their country. Even if I disagree with most of their policies. The same cannot be said for Trump.
Just curious, what are they doing and Trump not doing that makes you feel they care more about this country?
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      07-27-2019, 01:05 PM   #119
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Quote:
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So...

a) Both of these had a charge of obstruction in conjunction with a perjury charge. It's the perjury charge that is needed to align with obstruction. As such, my original statement still stands - in that an obstruction charge is nearly never found with a guilty verdict as a standalone charge. Trump couldn't have a perjury charge levied, as he was never disposed.

b) Even if you want to forgo my comment above - you still listed 2 cases. Ever. In nearly 250 years of jurisprudence. I would call that a solid piece of evidence confirming my statement of:
You asked, I answered.

As to the rest of it. A charge of Obstruction of Justice does not just apply to politicians or high profile individuals. It can apply to Joe Schmo as well. You can always contact each federal courthouse and ask them for the records of each case that has ever been charged involving 18 U S C 1501 - 1521. You can then parse through them to see what ones fit your criteria. I am sure it is more than just 2 case in 250 years of jurisprudence.
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      07-29-2019, 09:51 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
As much as I dislike Trump,

(a) I would hardly call him a traitor (this is a crime that is punishable by the death penalty. You really feel he reached the level of being put to death?

(b) You honestly feel that any of the current Democrat candidates for 2020 (sans perhaps Biden) would make this country better than it currently is? You really think you would be better off if one of them was the president and enacted the policies they are promoting in the primary debates?

Honest questions.
Yes.
Less divide and hate would be a nice start.
As far as accomplishing something for the betterment of our country, Toonces the cat would do a better job.

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      07-29-2019, 11:19 AM   #121
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If we're going to resort to pictures.....here is a typical "I don't like him but support his policies" type trump supporter.
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      07-29-2019, 11:38 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
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Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Better than a lying traitor.
As much as I dislike Trump,

(a) I would hardly call him a traitor (this is a crime that is punishable by the death penalty. You really feel he reached the level of being put to death?

(b) You honestly feel that any of the current Democrat candidates for 2020 (sans perhaps Biden) would make this country better than it currently is? You really think you would be better off if one of them was the president and enacted the policies they are promoting in the primary debates?

Honest questions.
Yes he has committed treason, but I disagree with the death penalty. Let him languish in a cell until his life gives out.
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      07-29-2019, 11:39 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
As much as I dislike Trump,

(a) I would hardly call him a traitor (this is a crime that is punishable by the death penalty. You really feel he reached the level of being put to death?

(b) You honestly feel that any of the current Democrat candidates for 2020 (sans perhaps Biden) would make this country better than it currently is? You really think you would be better off if one of them was the president and enacted the policies they are promoting in the primary debates?

Honest questions.
A. A little hyperbole on my part, but we also DO NOT know why he has such an infactuation with Putin. There is a good chance something is going on we (the public) do not know about.

B. Though I do not agree with their policies, I do believe most of the Dem candidates actually want to make our country a better place. I don't trust Sanders and Booker on that point, but do for Biden, Harris, Buttegeig (?), and most others.
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      07-29-2019, 12:03 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyRyan2019 View Post
You asked, I answered.

As to the rest of it. A charge of Obstruction of Justice does not just apply to politicians or high profile individuals. It can apply to Joe Schmo as well. You can always contact each federal courthouse and ask them for the records of each case that has ever been charged involving 18 U S C 1501 - 1521. You can then parse through them to see what ones fit your criteria. I am sure it is more than just 2 case in 250 years of jurisprudence.
Came across an interesting Twitter thread on obstruction:

There are multiple federal statutes for Obstruction. §1501, 1503, 1505, 1510-1513, 1516-20 – and none of them apply to this theory with Trump except §1512 (c), which has never been used for a situation like this.

That strongly suggests that Weissmann wanted to find the crime of Obstruction, and went through every statute to find something to pin on Trump, regardless of how shaky it was.

Also, §1512 (c) was originally enacted in 2002 to address Corporate Fraud (with the example case of “document shredding”) and NOT anything like the situation with Trump/Comey/Flynn.

The DOJ’s US Justice Manual (JM) describes 1512 as protecting witnesses/victims or informants: “Section 1512 of Title 18 constitutes a broad prohibition against tampering with a witness, victim or informant”

The most recent US Court of Appeals rulings (5th Circuit, 2008 and 9th, Circuit, 2013) hold an FBI investigation is NOT an official proceeding. The 9th in Ermoian was explicit:

“an FBI investigation is not an official proceeding under the [1512] obstruction of justice statute”

I can’t find ANY Federal Appeals Court that has specifically held that an *FBI investigation* is in fact, an “official proceeding” within the meaning of 18 USC §1512. None. Some have held other investigations are, but not FBI ones.

Bottom line: if those 5th and 9th Circuit positions hold, then it is LEGALLY IMPOSSIBLE for Trump to have committed a crime under this statute by “obstructing” an FBI investigation. He couldn't even do it as private citizen, never mind as POTUS.

Even if SCOTUS reversed the 5th and 9th (unlikely), according to the DOJ Justice Manual again, 1512(c) requires the defendant to intend “specific results, for example, preventing a witness from testifying at an official proceeding” - essentially, a form of specific intent.

Trump “hoping” for Comey to “let Flynn go” is not a specific result and cannot possibly apply as Comey wasn't a “witness, victim or informant” at the time, which is the clearly intended meaning of the statute

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      07-29-2019, 12:15 PM   #125
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And as Barr himself said before becoming AG while still a private citizen:

It is inconceivable to me that the Department could accept Mueller's interpretation of 1512(c)(2). It is untenable as a matter of law and cannot provide a legitimate basis for interrogating the President. I know you will agree that, if a DOJ investigation is going to take down a Democratically elected President, it is imperative to the health of our system and to our national cohesion that any claim of wrongdoing is solidly based on evidence of a REAL crime - not a debatable one. It is time to travel well-worn paths, not to veer into novel, unsettled or contested areas of the law; and not to indulge the fancies by overly-zealous prosecutors.
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      07-29-2019, 12:26 PM   #126
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Yes he has committed treason, but I disagree with the death penalty. Let him languish in a cell until his life gives out.
Just as no jury would cinvict Hiliary no jury will convict Trump for anything. It will always be a hung jury..get a grip or not..dream on.
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      07-29-2019, 12:27 PM   #127
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Yes he has committed treason, but I disagree with the death penalty. Let him languish in a cell until his life gives out.
18 U.S. Code § 2381. Treason


Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 807; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(2)(J), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)
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      07-29-2019, 12:28 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
A. A little hyperbole on my part, but we also DO NOT know why he has such an infactuation with Putin. There is a good chance something is going on we (the public) do not know about.

B. Though I do not agree with their policies, I do believe most of the Dem candidates actually want to make our country a better place. I don't trust Sanders and Booker on that point, but do for Biden, Harris, Buttegeig (?), and most others.
So you vote based upon (1) rank speculation with no factual support; and (2) a vague sense of whether you think a candidate wants to make our country a better place, untethered to specific policy? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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      07-29-2019, 12:53 PM   #129
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So you vote based upon (1) rank speculation with no factual support; and (2) a vague sense of whether you think a candidate wants to make our country a better place, untethered to specific policy? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
That is the most misleading post I have seen on here in a long time, outside of fake news. Who I vote for and why is well documented, with sources linked. Rank speculation much more describes a Trump voter.
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      07-29-2019, 01:17 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
That is the most misleading post I have seen on here in a long time, outside of fake news. Who I vote for and why is well documented, with sources linked. Rank speculation much more describes a Trump voter.
"Only I can fix it".
"I'm a stable genius".
"I try to step back and remember my first shallow reaction. The day I realized it can be smart to be shallow was, for me, a deep experience."
"When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it. Then they were vicious. They were horrible, but they put it down with strength.
I don’t know who you vote for or why, and I don’t keep notes of your forum activity. I was just taking what you said at face value.

The balance of your post is a non sequitur. You’re just trying to change the subject. Seems like TDS to me.
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      07-29-2019, 01:22 PM   #131
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ScottyRyan2019 View Post
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
I am unaware of any single case being charged and convicted with respect to obstruction on an original charge where the arrest was found without merit; no valid basis; insufficient setting forth of facts; or no valid claim of deprivation of a legal right; or a not-guilty verdict was levied.

Please provide stare decisis with respect to your statement if you believe I am being a bit overzealous in my comment.
Martha Stewart.
Scooter Libby
it always surprises me that a Leftist (yeah yeah, i know you've claimed not to be one of those, all appearances to the contrary) would invoke the name of Scooter Libby in a public forum:
1. Scooter Libby was convicted and sent to prison for misremembering something he said in a meeting that occurred 3 years prior to his interview. I don't know about anyone else but i don't remember what i had for lunch 3 days ago and i probably don't know for sure what State i was in on this date 3 years ago.
2. lying POS Patrick Fitzgerald knew that Libby was not the leaker BEFORE Libby was ever interviewed. in fact, Fitzgerald already KNEW that the actual leaker was Hillary supporter Richard Armitage. for Fitzgerald, Armitage was off-limits. but Fitzgerald needed a scalp in order not to look like the chithead he actually is. enter poor ole Scooter Libby.

in an interesting side note: when James Comey was sacked he, of course, hired Patrick Fitzgerald to represent him.
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      07-29-2019, 01:44 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
I don’t know who you vote for or why, and I don’t keep notes of your forum activity. I was just taking what you said at face value.

The balance of your post is a non sequitur. You’re just trying to change the subject. Seems like TDS to me.
Your posts seem straight off a sophomore debate team (high school). I'm not impressed. Hopefully you know more about cigars than politics. Bringing up TDS is your way of saying "I can't argue, so I'll toss out an acronym I've heard about".

The bolded part is your other fallacy. You were not taking what I said at face value. You're simply being argumentative. Try adding some content to the political discussions, other than what you have seen on "Fox & Friends".
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