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BIMMERPOST Universal Forums Off-Topic Discussions Board Politics/Religion The Mueller Testimony - Thoughts and a survey

View Poll Results: What was the result of the testimony of Mr. Mueller?
Meh...nothing new. SSDD. 24 38.10%
Damning for the democrats. 21 33.33%
Damning for the republicans. 2 3.17%
Damning for Mr. Trump 7 11.11%
Dumpster Fire for the entire republic. 20 31.75%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

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      07-29-2019, 01:49 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poiseuille View Post
[B]it always surprises me that a Leftist (yeah yeah, i know you've claimed not to be one of those, all appearances to the contrary)["
As always......find a post where I could be construed as a "leftist". You're grasp of facts is as tenuous as Cigar's.....and Trumps.
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      07-29-2019, 02:21 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poiseuille View Post
[B]it always surprises me that a Leftist (yeah yeah, i know you've claimed not to be one of those, all appearances to the contrary)["
As always......find a post where I could be construed as a "leftist". You're grasp of facts is as tenuous as Cigar's.....and Trumps.
.
well RD, i'll have to go to airplane-mode in a minute but i did qualify that with "...all APPEARANCES to the contrary", and i do look forward to viewing your crafty response when i land in Philly.
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      07-29-2019, 02:25 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Poiseuille View Post
well RD, i'll have to go to airplane-mode in a minute but i did qualify that with "...all APPEARANCES to the contrary", and i willlook forward to viewing your crafty response when i land in Philly.
Have a safe flight. I don't need a "crafty response". My previous statement stands. Saying "all appearances to the contrary" in your context seems to be saying "you are a leftist".
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      07-29-2019, 03:31 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Your posts seem straight off a sophomore debate team (high school). I'm not impressed. Hopefully you know more about cigars than politics. Bringing up TDS is your way of saying "I can't argue, so I'll toss out an acronym I've heard about".

The bolded part is your other fallacy. You were not taking what I said at face value. You're simply being argumentative. Try adding some content to the political discussions, other than what you have seen on "Fox & Friends".
Lots of hostility, little substance.

TDS is derived from BDS. “That "syndrome" was defined by Krauthammer as "the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency – nay – the very existence of George W. Bush."[5][6][7][8] The first use of the term 'Trump Derangement Syndrome' may have been by Esther Goldberg in an August 2015 op-ed in The American Spectator; she applied the term to "Ruling Class Republicans" who are dismissive or contemptuous of Trump.[9] Krauthammer, himself a harsh critic of Trump, later defined "Trump derangement syndrome" as a Trump-induced "general hysteria" among the chattering classes, producing an "inability to distinguish between legitimate policy differences and ... signs of psychic pathology" in the President's behavior.[8]”

Sound familiar?
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      07-29-2019, 03:56 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
Lots of hostility, little substance.

TDS is derived from BDS. “That "syndrome" was defined by Krauthammer as "the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency – nay – the very existence of George W. Bush."[5][6][7][8] The first use of the term 'Trump Derangement Syndrome' may have been by Esther Goldberg in an August 2015 op-ed in The American Spectator; she applied the term to "Ruling Class Republicans" who are dismissive or contemptuous of Trump.[9] Krauthammer, himself a harsh critic of Trump, later defined "Trump derangement syndrome" as a Trump-induced "general hysteria" among the chattering classes, producing an "inability to distinguish between legitimate policy differences and ... signs of psychic pathology" in the President's behavior.[8]”

Sound familiar?
Seems you advocate that. See the first post where you jumped in. You made a totally unsubstantiated, opinionated statement not supported by any facts.

Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
A. A little hyperbole on my part, but we also DO NOT know why he has such an infactuation with Putin. There is a good chance something is going on we (the public) do not know about.

B. Though I do not agree with their policies, I do believe most of the Dem candidates actually want to make our country a better place. I don't trust Sanders and Booker on that point, but do for Biden, Harris, Buttegeig (?), and most others.
So you vote based upon (1) rank speculation with no factual support; and (2) a vague sense of whether you think a candidate wants to make our country a better place, untethered to specific policy? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


So you are self-diagnosing with some strange form of TDS? I obviously can differentiate between policy and intent. Can you? You make many self assured sounding posts which are rarely, if ever, backed up with any source material.

An intelligent reply to my original post might have explored why I wouldn't trust Sanders or Booker as compared to Warren and the others. Instead you went for character assassination. My bet is that you are an attorney.
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      07-29-2019, 04:43 PM   #138
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I don’t have to keep notes to know that you have TDS, biggly.

Seriously though, I was just having a little fun with the TDS comment. You do bag on him constantly, and seem to be a bit fixated. But I’m sorry to offend. Let take it down a notch, shall we?
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      07-29-2019, 06:16 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
A. A little hyperbole on my part, but we also DO NOT know why he has such an infactuation with Putin. There is a good chance something is going on we (the public) do not know about.

B. Though I do not agree with their policies, I do believe most of the Dem candidates actually want to make our country a better place. I don't trust Sanders and Booker on that point, but do for Biden, Harris, Buttegeig (?), and most others.
So you vote based upon (1) rank speculation with no factual support; and (2) a vague sense of whether you think a candidate wants to make our country a better place, untethered to specific policy? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Of course we can dial it down a bit. We must agree first of all, that number one, and including untethered, describes Trump, not me. Remember during one of the debates in 2016, the question was asked about up keeping the nuclear triad. Trumps response: "I think – I think, for me, nuclear is just the power, the devastation is very important to me."
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      07-30-2019, 12:01 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriphill View Post
Came across an interesting Twitter thread on obstruction:

There are multiple federal statutes for Obstruction. §1501, 1503, 1505, 1510-1513, 1516-20 – and none of them apply to this theory with Trump except §1512 (c), which has never been used for a situation like this.

That strongly suggests that Weissmann wanted to find the crime of Obstruction, and went through every statute to find something to pin on Trump, regardless of how shaky it was.

Also, §1512 (c) was originally enacted in 2002 to address Corporate Fraud (with the example case of “document shredding”) and NOT anything like the situation with Trump/Comey/Flynn.

The DOJ’s US Justice Manual (JM) describes 1512 as protecting witnesses/victims or informants: “Section 1512 of Title 18 constitutes a broad prohibition against tampering with a witness, victim or informant”

The most recent US Court of Appeals rulings (5th Circuit, 2008 and 9th, Circuit, 2013) hold an FBI investigation is NOT an official proceeding. The 9th in Ermoian was explicit:

“an FBI investigation is not an official proceeding under the [1512] obstruction of justice statute”

I can’t find ANY Federal Appeals Court that has specifically held that an *FBI investigation* is in fact, an “official proceeding” within the meaning of 18 USC §1512. None. Some have held other investigations are, but not FBI ones.

Bottom line: if those 5th and 9th Circuit positions hold, then it is LEGALLY IMPOSSIBLE for Trump to have committed a crime under this statute by “obstructing” an FBI investigation. He couldn't even do it as private citizen, never mind as POTUS.

Even if SCOTUS reversed the 5th and 9th (unlikely), according to the DOJ Justice Manual again, 1512(c) requires the defendant to intend “specific results, for example, preventing a witness from testifying at an official proceeding” - essentially, a form of specific intent.

Trump “hoping” for Comey to “let Flynn go” is not a specific result and cannot possibly apply as Comey wasn't a “witness, victim or informant” at the time, which is the clearly intended meaning of the statute

The D C circuit and the 2nd circuit have ruled the opposite. The 4th circuit appears to follow the same.

Here is a quote from a federal court ruling out of the 4th circuit in U S v Hutcherson:

Government agency actions, such as the FBI investigation of the defendant, are "official proceedings" under section 1512, whether or not a grand jury has been convened because Congress intended to deter obstruction of more than judicial proceedings with section 1512.
Specifically section 1512 (c)(2) is the omnibus clause that intends to punish the myriad of of obstructive conduct that cannot be adequately defined in the statute. The defendant's conduct of lying to an FBI agent and subsequently guiding him on an expedition for non existent documents is the type of conduct which section 1512 (c)(2) prohibits because because the defendant intended to influence the FBI agent's actions and to obstruct and impede the criminal investigation by exhausting government resources on a meritless search. Therefor, the defendant can be convicted under section 1512 because he corruptly intended to influence,obstruct, and impede an official proceeding.



As there is a circuit split, there is no uniform interpretation across the U S and each circuit will do as they feel (But again note what the D C and 2nd Circuits feel is the correct interpretation and where those courts are located). As for your speculation as to what the Supreme Court may do, that is just that, speculation.
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