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View Poll Results: What was the result of the testimony of Mr. Mueller?
Meh...nothing new. SSDD. 24 38.10%
Damning for the democrats. 21 33.33%
Damning for the republicans. 2 3.17%
Damning for Mr. Trump 7 11.11%
Dumpster Fire for the entire republic. 20 31.75%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

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      07-25-2019, 11:44 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
... technically you cant obstruct an investigation if you know you are innocent...
As an arm chair attorney, I say yes you can obstruct an investigation where you are not found guilty. It's about interfering with the mechanisms of justice, and not related to the underlying crime.
You mean like smashing and shredding disk drives?
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      07-25-2019, 11:58 AM   #46
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Didnt say not found guilty, different than knowing your innocence
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      07-25-2019, 12:11 PM   #47
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Yeah, being guilty of the underlying crime is not technically legally necessary for obstruction, but it’s pretty tough to get a conviction when the target is not guilty for a number of reasons: (1) it’s a chicken shit process crime; (2) it’s almost impossible to prove mens rea (intent) when the Target honestly (and correctly) believes that he is not guilty of the crime he is being investigated for. That’s why you don’t see prosecutions in such situations unless they are politically motivated.
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      07-25-2019, 12:27 PM   #48
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As much as the left wanted Mueller to testify, they really should've left him at home. He looked elderly and off of his game.
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      07-25-2019, 12:45 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PR3CI5N View Post
As much as the left wanted Mueller to testify, they really should've left him at home. He looked elderly and off of his game.
that is outside of my purview
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      07-25-2019, 02:04 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy View Post
As an arm chair attorney, I say yes you can obstruct an investigation where you are not found guilty. It's about interfering with the mechanisms of justice, and not related to the underlying crime.
What if you are not convicted BECAUSE you obstructed justice? Say....you intimidated witnesses, and instructed others to lie for you.....?
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      07-25-2019, 02:14 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
What if you are not convicted BECAUSE you obstructed justice? Say....you intimidated witnesses, and instructed others to lie for you.....?
This hypothetical does not apply to Trump. Mueller was given full funding, all the documents and witnesses he wanted, a rabid staff of aggressive (to the point of being unethical) anti-Trump prosecutors, and everything else he could ever want, except for an interview with the President, which he was not entitled to anyway. There were no material lies having anything to do with Mueller’s mandate (Russia collusion), and none that were not discovered and vetted. So to the extent you are suggesting that Trump obstruction is the reason he wasn’t indicted, that’s just unfounded.
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      07-25-2019, 02:37 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
This hypothetical does not apply to Trump. Mueller was given full funding, all the documents and witnesses he wanted, a rabid staff of aggressive (to the point of being unethical) anti-Trump prosecutors, and everything else he could ever want, except for an interview with the President, which he was not entitled to anyway. There were no material lies having anything to do with Mueller’s mandate (Russia collusion), and none that were not discovered and vetted. So to the extent you are suggesting that Trump obstruction is the reason he wasn’t indicted, that’s just unfounded.
That is your OPINION. Which is fine. But what if Trump had more extensive contacts with Russia and the evidence has not been uncovered, through lies and intimidation? Hypothetical, sure. Unfounded? Not so much. Trump has shown a great proclivity for lying. And his business model is full of people being intimidated. There is a track record.

And Mueller? Before this investigation, what was his track record? Completely unblemished.
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      07-25-2019, 02:38 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
To have obstruction of justice, a crime has to be committed to obstruct the investigation from.
Not true at all. There are circumstances where you can have a charge and conviction for Obstruction of Justice under federal law with no underlying crime committed or charged.

Obstruction of justice is defined as "Interference with the orderly administration of law and justice" and is found in 18 U S C 1501 - 1521. Although it can vary slightly by statute, generally these are elements required for conviction:

1: There was a pending federal judicial proceeding
2: The defendant knew of the proceeding, and
3: The defendant had the corrupt intent to interfere with or attempted to interfere with the proceeding.

Nowhere does it state an underlying crime need be committed.

Let me give you an example: You are the Vice President of the United States (see what I did there ). The Feds suspect you of committing a crime. They launch an investigation. Now, we all know that not all investigations result in charges because not all investigations result in crimes being uncovered. So lets say this is one of those cases.

You KNOW for sure you did not commit the crime you are being investigated for. However, you know that if the Feds dig deep enough, they are going to likely uncover some potentially highly embarrassing and potentially damaging information about you that is not criminal in nature (maybe you had a bunch of affairs with porn stars you don't want people knowing about because you are a bible banger). So, you decide to obstruct their investigation by tampering with witnesses , destroying some documents, and trying to get the head of the investigation fired.

You have just committed Obstruction of Justice under federal law even though no underlying crime was committed or charged.
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      07-25-2019, 02:46 PM   #54
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Quote:
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It is my understanding that after the Mueller hearing McConnell once again blocked another election security bill. So much for Senate Republicans giving a shit.
https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-acti...ller-testimony

"Sen. Cindy Hyde-Smith (R-Miss.) blocked each of the bills. She didn't give reason for her objections, or say if she was objecting on behalf of herself or the Senate GOP caucus. A spokesman didn't immediately respond to a request for comment."
As I understand it, elections are the responsibility of the individual states and this bill in particular was just political theatre as many of the items in the had already been addressed.
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      07-25-2019, 02:48 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
That is your OPINION. Which is fine. But what if Trump had more extensive contacts with Russia and the evidence has not been uncovered, through lies and intimidation? Hypothetical, sure. Unfounded? Not so much. Trump has shown a great proclivity for lying. And his business model is full of people being intimidated. There is a track record.

And Mueller? Before this investigation, what was his track record? Completely unblemished.
What if? The full weight and power of the U.S. federal government’s resources were unleashed upon him based upon unethical and politically motivated lies by FBI officials in cahoots with his political opponent. After this disgraceful process ran its course, they came up with nothing.

And Mueller’s testimony made it clear that he did not conduct the investigation. His reputation was used to give a veneer of legitimacy to the investigation, which he knew little about and had little involvement in conducting.

Jeezus, when will this end?
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      07-25-2019, 02:51 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
What if? The full weight and power of the U.S. federal government’s resources were unleashed upon him based upon unethical and politically motivated lies by FBI officials in cahoots with his political opponent. After this disgraceful process ran its course, they came up with nothing.

And Mueller’s testimony made it clear that he did not conduct the investigation. His reputation was used to give a veneer of legitimacy to the investigation, which he knew little about and had little involvement in conducting.

Jeezus, when will this end?
All speculative opinion. And inaccurate, in my opinion (based on a lack of emotional investment).
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      07-25-2019, 03:04 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
All speculative opinion. And inaccurate, in my opinion (based on a lack of emotional investment).
Emotional investment? I call them like I see them. I have thoroughly mixed feelings about Trump, but the fact that I don’t suffer from TDS doesn’t mean that I am emotionally invested. But I am extremely troubled by the politicization of the FBI, and use of the FISA court as a political weapon to spy on opponents based upon false or misleading affidavits. This kind of stuff should bother everyone, regardless of your political leanings.
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      07-25-2019, 03:16 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
All speculative opinion. And inaccurate, in my opinion (based on a lack of emotional investment).
Emotional investment? I call them like I see them. I have thoroughly mixed feelings about Trump, but the fact that I don't suffer from TDS doesn't mean that I am emotionally invested. But I am extremely troubled by the politicization of the FBI, and use of the FISA court as a political weapon to spy on opponents based upon false or misleading affidavits. This kind of stuff should bother everyone, regardless of your political leanings.
Interesting that you feel that way about the investigation. Most credible sources disagree with you.
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      07-25-2019, 03:58 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
Emotional investment? I call them like I see them. I have thoroughly mixed feelings about Trump, but the fact that I don’t suffer from TDS doesn’t mean that I am emotionally invested. But I am extremely troubled by the politicization of the FBI, and use of the FISA court as a political weapon to spy on opponents based upon false or misleading affidavits. This kind of stuff should bother everyone, regardless of your political leanings.
What I find kind of ironic is the right for two years constantly berated the left for jumping to conclusions about the Mueller investigation, yet now the right is doing the exact same thing with the Horowitz and Dunham investigations...jumping to conclusions. They are not even done yet and the nooses and strung and the graves are dug. Lets see what comes of them. If there is wrong doing, so be it. Let the heads roll. But not before.
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      07-25-2019, 04:02 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyRyan2019 View Post
What I find kind of ironic is the right for two years constantly berated the left for jumping to conclusions about the Mueller investigation, yet now the right is doing the exact same thing with the Horowitz and Dunham investigations...jumping to conclusions. They are not even done yet and the nooses and strung and the graves are dug. Lets see what comes of them. If there is wrong doing, so be it. Let the heads roll. But not before.
Not saying you do/did this but hasn't this been the case for the past 2+ years?
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      07-25-2019, 05:28 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Interesting that you feel that way about the investigation. Most credible sources disagree with you.
CNN, MSNBC, NY TImes?
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      07-25-2019, 05:54 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Interesting that you feel that way about the investigation. Most credible sources disagree with you.
CNN, MSNBC, NY TImes?
I really don't watch or read msnbc or the NYT to often. But they are both more credible than most pulp fiction sources that support Trump.

Other credible sources whose content is at odds with Cigar:
Wall Street Journal
Dallas Morning News
NPR
WAPO
BBC
Bloomberg
AP
Reuters
Etc
Etc
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      07-26-2019, 08:29 AM   #63
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Not saying you do/did this but hasn't this been the case for the past 2+ years?
Yes that is what I was saying.
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      07-26-2019, 11:37 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
I really don't watch or read msnbc or the NYT to often. But they are both more credible than most pulp fiction sources that support Trump.

Other credible sources whose content is at odds with Cigar:
Wall Street Journal
Dallas Morning News
NPR
WAPO
BBC
Bloomberg
AP
Reuters
Etc
Etc
I’m not sure what you are referring to, when you say that their “content” is “at odds” which what I have said, but it is my understanding that the Steele Dossier was relied upon in the FISA applications and that its character as Oppo research by Clinton and the DNC was not disclosed. From what I know of Comey, he was the most politicized FBI chief since Hoover—not a good thing. Anyway, as Scotty noted, this is all being investigated and we can wait to see what that turns up.
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      07-26-2019, 11:46 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
I really don't watch or read msnbc or the NYT to often. But they are both more credible than most pulp fiction sources that support Trump.

Other credible sources whose content is at odds with Cigar:
Wall Street Journal
Dallas Morning News
NPR
WAPO
BBC
Bloomberg
AP
Reuters
Etc
Etc
I’m not sure what you are referring to, when you say that their “content” is “at odds” which what I have said, but it is my understanding that the Steele Dossier was relied upon in the FISA applications and that its character as Oppo research by Clinton and the DNC was not disclosed. From what I know of Comey, he was the most politicized FBI chief since Hoover—not a good thing. Anyway, as Scotty noted, this is all being investigated and we can wait to see what that turns up.
None of those organizations have reported that the FBI was "weaponized" against trump, other than a few editorial pieces. Quite the opposite, from what's been described in the Mueller report and those news organizations correlates the fact Trump wants to "weaponize" said FBI against political opponents. How many time did he tweet things about Sessions? Mueller? Do you still believe in "lock her up"?

And you understand the "Steele dossier" was started by Republicans?
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      07-26-2019, 12:06 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
I really don't watch or read msnbc or the NYT to often. But they are both more credible than most pulp fiction sources that support Trump.

Other credible sources whose content is at odds with Cigar:
Wall Street Journal
Dallas Morning News
NPR
WAPO
BBC
Bloomberg
AP
Reuters
Etc
Etc
Meh - your source comparison is a bit thin:

Wall Street Journal: Leans pretty far to the right
Dallas Morning News: Leans somewhat left
NPR: Leans heavily to the left
WAPO: Leans somewhat to the right
BBC: Leans heavily to the left
Bloomberg: Strong non-biased source
AP: Strong non-biased source
Reuters: Strong non-biased source
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