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      02-22-2015, 02:24 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by vsix View Post
Well...that's a prob you have not me. I just go to the dealer and pick stuff up, no shipping for me.
Back to the thread no used watches, I'm out.


I hope no one sneezes in your soup, bro
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      02-24-2015, 09:02 AM   #46
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to the OP,

I've had to both Aqua Terra and Milgauss, both selection are great

Rolex will withstand the test of times on their new current models and I can attest that I have gone through the Tag Heuer, then Omega, then settling with Rolex

You just cannot beat the quality and workmanship that goes in to Rolex (vs Tag Heuger and Omega)

My current Submariner 114060 is always -2 seconds/day and I use it everyday biking, working out, desk diving, driving, etc...

You can also try the new Rolex dials and they should be as comfortable and within the price range of AT and Milgauss

http://revo-online.com/rolex-and-the...-dial-colours/
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      02-24-2015, 06:16 PM   #47
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Their must be a language barrier type thing going on because VSIX is literally making no sense.
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      02-24-2015, 07:43 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by originalgoods13 View Post
to the OP,

I've had to both Aqua Terra and Milgauss, both selection are great

Rolex will withstand the test of times on their new current models and I can attest that I have gone through the Tag Heuer, then Omega, then settling with Rolex

You just cannot beat the quality and workmanship that goes in to Rolex (vs Tag Heuger and Omega)

My current Submariner 114060 is always -2 seconds/day and I use it everyday biking, working out, desk diving, driving, etc...

You can also try the new Rolex dials and they should be as comfortable and within the price range of AT and Milgauss

http://revo-online.com/rolex-and-the...-dial-colours/
I agree that the workmanship that results in the quality of an uncomplicated Rolex cannot be beat. It can be, and often enough is, matched. The issue is that very few other makers are trying to make a watch that is what a Rolex Oyster is.

Rolex is well aware that their watches are over engineered/over built in nearly every way, and they know the technical design of their watches is not substantively different now than it was 50+ years ago. There are pros and cons to all of that. Whether a Rolex can be "beat" or not is a matter of the value proposition that most resonates with any given consumer.
  • Movement -- scores of makers have equally good movements. Any chronometer grade ETA is as good a movement as anything inside of any uncomplicated Rolex. Adorn a 2892-2 chronometer grade with some decorative flourishes and it's all but the same thing as a Rolex movement.
  • Case/Stainless Steel -- Rolex use 914L steel. That steel is more resistant to corrosion when exposed to salt water for extended periods, periods measured by a calendar, not a clock. Otherwise, there's no difference that's relevant to watches.
  • Bracelet -- some people make heavier weight ones, some less heavy ones. The weak point in any bracelet is where it attaches to the clasp or watch case, and the bracelet isn't the weak point, but rather the pins that effect the attachment. There are several kinds of pins, but be sure that whatever pin the maker uses, it is what will fail before the bracelet itself does.

    For example, I can't tell you how many folks rant and rave about Rolex's solid end links on their bracelets. Rolex didn't implement solid end links until 1998. They weren't the first to use them, but Rolex was among the first to tell anyone they use them. These days, one can buy a $500 watch that is as well constructed in the case and bracelet as any Rolex Oyster.
  • Crystals -- Rolex used to use acrylic crystals. Why? Because they could be easily buffed clean of any surface scratches and they were less prone to breaking. Also, synthetic sapphire, which is what they use now, was considerably more expensive. Now that Rolex have recognized that by and large their customers buy their watches for luxury, and that that luxury is luxury for its own sake rather than for practical reasons, Rolex have upped the luxury factor in their watches. Sapphire is less easily scratched, but more susceptible to breaking than is acrylic. Apparently Rolex has figured out that its customers scrape their watches across things, but don't so much bang them into things.

    Either way, sapphire crystal is sapphire crystal. That some of them are thicker than others reflects the maker's needs re: watch overall thickness, water resistance and depth ratings, not a desire to make a higher quality watch.
The above are just a few examples of how one can indeed match a Rolex. What is fair to say is that to get all of a Rolex Oyster features in a big name brand and at a lower price is hard to accomplish at a price below what one must pay to get a Rolex. IMO, an Omega Planet Ocean, Hour Vision or Seamaster/Aqua Terra is probably the closest one can get. There will be minor differences, but none that really matter unless one has a very specific need for those things that are different.

So when it comes to value and being "beat," I'd say that if one, for example, won't spend days on end in sea water, that a Rolex is made of 914L steel is irrelevant and paying a tidy sum more to get a Rolex which may differ from an Omega only in terms of the steel isn't a good value proposition for that consumer. When it comes to one watch being "better" or "worse" for a given end user, there are no absolutes. It's a matter of what matters, what doesn't matter and what one is willing to pay for as a result of what does/doesn't matter.

Curatorial Collectors:
Curatorial collectors are "odd birds." We buy watches for very specific reasons. It's rare that it's a matter of a Rolex vs. an Omega or Tag, say. Rather it's a matter of which Rolex we want to buy (or even which version, reference, movement, and/or vintage of a given model) and whether we'd be satisfied with a different one given the right circumstances: price, state of repair, availability, etc.

One either wants/needs a Rolex in their collection (for whatever reason) or one doesn't. Either way, one can't have a Rolex in their collection unless one buys a Rolex. An Omega or JLC quite simply won't do, regardless of whether they match, best or are inferior to a Rolex in any regard. Similarly, if one is creating a Swatch collection, for example, no Rolex is as good as any Swatch.

From a curatorial collecting standpoint, the differences between a Rolex and its competing brands are irrelevant entirely. It's about the differences between this Rolex and that one. Might occasionally a curatorial collector come across a situation where they'd intended to get a given, say Rolex, and end up buying something made by someone else? Yes, that can and does happen, but when it does, it's generally a matter of an unexpected opportunity coming about and one's knowing one needs to jump on it while one can. Even having availed oneself of such an opportunity, the need to add a Rolex into the collection hasn't gone away, it's merely been deferred (assuming one lacks the funds to buy both the Rolex and the unplanned for other watch).

All the best.
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Last edited by tony20009; 02-25-2015 at 07:57 PM.. Reason: corrected a "typo" re: sapphire crystals
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      02-25-2015, 02:45 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I agree that the workmanship that results in the quality of an uncomplicated Rolex cannot be beat. It can be, and often enough is, matched. The issue is that very few other makers are trying to make a watch that is what a Rolex Oyster is.

Rolex is well aware that their watches are over engineered/over built in nearly every way, and they know the technical design of their watches is not substantively different now than it was 50+ years ago. There are pros and cons to all of that. Whether a Rolex can be "beat" or not is a matter of the value proposition that most resonates with any given consumer.
  • Movement -- scores of makers have equally good movements. Any chronometer grade ETA is as good a movement as anything inside of any uncomplicated Rolex. Adorn a 2892-2 chronometer grade with some decorative flourishes and it's all but the same thing as a Rolex movement.
  • Case/Stainless Steel -- Rolex use 914L steel. That steel is more resistant to corrosion when exposed to salt water for extended periods, periods measured by a calendar, not a clock. Otherwise, there's no difference that's relevant to watches.
  • Bracelet -- some people make heavier weight ones, some less heavy ones. The weak point in any bracelet is where it attaches to the clasp or watch case, and the bracelet isn't the weak point, but rather the pins that effect the attachment. There are several kinds of pins, but be sure that whatever pin the maker uses, it is what will fail before the bracelet itself does.

    For example, I can't tell you how many folks rant and rave about Rolex's solid end links on their bracelets. Rolex didn't implement solid end links until 1998. They weren't the first to use them, but Rolex was among the first to tell anyone they use them. These days, one can buy a $500 watch that is as well constructed in the case and bracelet as any Rolex Oyster.
  • Crystals -- Rolex used to use acrylic crystals. Why? Because they could be easily buffed clean of any surface scratches and they were less prone to breaking. Also, synthetic sapphire, which is what they use now, was considerably more expensive. Now that Rolex have recognized that by and large their customers buy their watches for luxury, and that that luxury is luxury for its own sake rather than for practical reasons, Rolex have upped the luxury factor in their watches. Sapphire is less resistant to scratching, but more susceptible to breaking than is acrylic. Apparently Rolex has figured out that its customers scrape their watches across things, but don't so much bang them into things.

    Either way, sapphire crystal is sapphire crystal. That some of them are thicker than others reflects the maker's needs re: watch overall thickness, water resistance and depth ratings, not a desire to make a higher quality watch.
The above are just a few examples of how one can indeed match a Rolex. What is fair to say is that to get all of a Rolex Oyster features in a big name brand and at a lower price is hard to accomplish at a price below what one must pay to get a Rolex. IMO, an Omega Planet Ocean, Hour Vision or Seamaster/Aqua Terra is probably the closest one can get. There will be minor differences, but none that really matter unless one has a very specific need for those things that are different.

So when it comes to value and being "beat," I'd say that if one, for example, won't spend days on end in sea water, that a Rolex is made of 914L steel is irrelevant and paying a tidy sum more to get a Rolex which may differ from an Omega only in terms of the steel isn't a good value proposition for that consumer. When it comes to one watch being "better" or "worse" for a given end user, there are no absolutes. It's a matter of what matters, what doesn't matter and what one is willing to pay for as a result of what does/doesn't matter.

Curatorial Collectors:
Curatorial collectors are "odd birds." We buy watches for very specific reasons. It's rare that it's a matter of a Rolex vs. an Omega or Tag, say. Rather it's a matter of which Rolex we want to buy (or even which version, reference, movement, and/or vintage of a given model) and whether we'd be satisfied with a different one given the right circumstances: price, state of repair, availability, etc.

One either wants/needs a Rolex in their collection (for whatever reason) or one doesn't. Either way, one can't have a Rolex in their collection unless one buys a Rolex. An Omega or JLC quite simply won't do, regardless of whether they match, best or are inferior to a Rolex in any regard. Similarly, if one is creating a Swatch collection, for example, no Rolex is as good as any Swatch.

From a curatorial collecting standpoint, the differences between a Rolex and its competing brands are irrelevant entirely. It's about the differences between this Rolex and that one. Might occasionally a curatorial collector come across a situation where they'd intended to get a given, say Rolex, and end up buying something made by someone else? Yes, that can and does happen, but when it does, it's generally a matter of an unexpected opportunity coming about and one's knowing one needs to jump on it while one can. Even having availed oneself of such an opportunity, the need to add a Rolex into the collection hasn't gone away, it's merely been deferred (assuming one lacks the funds to buy both the Rolex and the unplanned for other watch).

All the best.
Your posts on watches on always very informative and great to read, thank you for spending the time on them!

Just one thing, I think you may have meant "Sapphire is more resistant to scratching"
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      02-25-2015, 07:55 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K19BMW View Post
Your posts on watches on always very informative and great to read, thank you for spending the time on them!

Just one thing, I think you may have meant "Sapphire is more resistant to scratching"
TY. I'm glad you think so, and I appreciate your saying so publicly. That's very kind of you to do.

Sapphire Crystal:
I absolutely meant that. I'll have to correct the post. TY for bringing the mistake to my attention.

All the best.
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      02-26-2015, 12:13 PM   #51
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So I've now spent copious time evaluating all different watches.

I've had one interesting thing pop up. I really enjoy the SMOOTH movement of a mechanical watch. Ironically, I find many of the higher end watches to have an un-attractive movement to observe. Omega's new co-axial, for example, is too stuttering for me. They lowered the beats per hour speed and increased the watch size which, in combination, results in a second hand whose movement is less aesthetically appealing to me.

Ironically, I'm finding some "lower end" watches employing an ETA Valjoux movement at 28,800 beats per hour (bph), such as a Bell & Ross BR 02, to be more enjoyable to view.

I really, really enjoy the history of the Omega Speedmaster in terms of the toughness of it's original movement, the original use in space, etc....and I find it be a very attractive watch with several different bands too - so it's still in the running.

That's where I'm at today....been an interesting journey.
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      02-26-2015, 12:27 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vsix View Post
Yes I even did it on my brand new car I bought back in 2013...
I don't know maybe it's just my psyche but when a car come's I order everytime:
New keys
New steeringwheel
New shift knob
New floormat's, new trunkmat
...yep even on brand new car's...

That is insane man. You are a serious germaphobe.
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      02-26-2015, 12:44 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I agree that the workmanship that results in the quality of an uncomplicated Rolex cannot be beat. It can be, and often enough is, matched. The issue is that very few other makers are trying to make a watch that is what a Rolex Oyster is.

Rolex is well aware that their watches are over engineered/over built in nearly every way, and they know the technical design of their watches is not substantively different now than it was 50+ years ago. There are pros and cons to all of that. Whether a Rolex can be "beat" or not is a matter of the value proposition that most resonates with any given consumer.
  • Movement -- scores of makers have equally good movements. Any chronometer grade ETA is as good a movement as anything inside of any uncomplicated Rolex. Adorn a 2892-2 chronometer grade with some decorative flourishes and it's all but the same thing as a Rolex movement.
  • Case/Stainless Steel -- Rolex use 914L steel. That steel is more resistant to corrosion when exposed to salt water for extended periods, periods measured by a calendar, not a clock. Otherwise, there's no difference that's relevant to watches.
  • Bracelet -- some people make heavier weight ones, some less heavy ones. The weak point in any bracelet is where it attaches to the clasp or watch case, and the bracelet isn't the weak point, but rather the pins that effect the attachment. There are several kinds of pins, but be sure that whatever pin the maker uses, it is what will fail before the bracelet itself does.

    For example, I can't tell you how many folks rant and rave about Rolex's solid end links on their bracelets. Rolex didn't implement solid end links until 1998. They weren't the first to use them, but Rolex was among the first to tell anyone they use them. These days, one can buy a $500 watch that is as well constructed in the case and bracelet as any Rolex Oyster.
  • Crystals -- Rolex used to use acrylic crystals. Why? Because they could be easily buffed clean of any surface scratches and they were less prone to breaking. Also, synthetic sapphire, which is what they use now, was considerably more expensive. Now that Rolex have recognized that by and large their customers buy their watches for luxury, and that that luxury is luxury for its own sake rather than for practical reasons, Rolex have upped the luxury factor in their watches. Sapphire is less easily scratched, but more susceptible to breaking than is acrylic. Apparently Rolex has figured out that its customers scrape their watches across things, but don't so much bang them into things.

    Either way, sapphire crystal is sapphire crystal. That some of them are thicker than others reflects the maker's needs re: watch overall thickness, water resistance and depth ratings, not a desire to make a higher quality watch.
The above are just a few examples of how one can indeed match a Rolex. What is fair to say is that to get all of a Rolex Oyster features in a big name brand and at a lower price is hard to accomplish at a price below what one must pay to get a Rolex. IMO, an Omega Planet Ocean, Hour Vision or Seamaster/Aqua Terra is probably the closest one can get. There will be minor differences, but none that really matter unless one has a very specific need for those things that are different.

So when it comes to value and being "beat," I'd say that if one, for example, won't spend days on end in sea water, that a Rolex is made of 914L steel is irrelevant and paying a tidy sum more to get a Rolex which may differ from an Omega only in terms of the steel isn't a good value proposition for that consumer. When it comes to one watch being "better" or "worse" for a given end user, there are no absolutes. It's a matter of what matters, what doesn't matter and what one is willing to pay for as a result of what does/doesn't matter.

Curatorial Collectors:
Curatorial collectors are "odd birds." We buy watches for very specific reasons. It's rare that it's a matter of a Rolex vs. an Omega or Tag, say. Rather it's a matter of which Rolex we want to buy (or even which version, reference, movement, and/or vintage of a given model) and whether we'd be satisfied with a different one given the right circumstances: price, state of repair, availability, etc.

One either wants/needs a Rolex in their collection (for whatever reason) or one doesn't. Either way, one can't have a Rolex in their collection unless one buys a Rolex. An Omega or JLC quite simply won't do, regardless of whether they match, best or are inferior to a Rolex in any regard. Similarly, if one is creating a Swatch collection, for example, no Rolex is as good as any Swatch.

From a curatorial collecting standpoint, the differences between a Rolex and its competing brands are irrelevant entirely. It's about the differences between this Rolex and that one. Might occasionally a curatorial collector come across a situation where they'd intended to get a given, say Rolex, and end up buying something made by someone else? Yes, that can and does happen, but when it does, it's generally a matter of an unexpected opportunity coming about and one's knowing one needs to jump on it while one can. Even having availed oneself of such an opportunity, the need to add a Rolex into the collection hasn't gone away, it's merely been deferred (assuming one lacks the funds to buy both the Rolex and the unplanned for other watch).

All the best.
Great post.

I saw this vid a couple of nights ago and just about died laughing at this numpty. This is NSFW for language. Get a load of this guy.

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      02-26-2015, 01:01 PM   #54
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That is insane man. You are a serious germaphobe.
Yeah maybe but it's just a slight germaphope touch I got.
I'm not like detective monk but have to admit Iam VERY pickey when it goes to stuff that could contact my skin.
I was once ( few yrs. ago ) driving subway and got a bad germ inflamation, it was really bad, that triggered my fear a little bit more and from that day Iam the steering wheel replacer no.1

As for my contribution to the thread:
At the end it's personal preference I guess, I prefer new.
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      02-26-2015, 02:01 PM   #55
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vsix, my girlfriend turned me into a big germaphobe, public seating particularly fabric lined chairs, buffet style food - she keeps alcohol wipes in her pocket book and just whips those things out.
She was born in rural Korea on a farm so I can't quite figure out where she inherited such a sanitary lifestyle.
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      02-26-2015, 02:08 PM   #56
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Great post.

I saw this vid a couple of nights ago and just about died laughing at this numpty. This is NSFW for language. Get a load of this guy.

Great vid.
Reminds me of Youtuber Nick Murray.
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      02-26-2015, 02:36 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric@helix View Post
Great post.

I saw this vid a couple of nights ago and just about died laughing at this numpty. This is NSFW for language. Get a load of this guy.

Well, I didn't watch the video, but looking at the title, I'd have to say that broadly speaking, I agree. When given the choice between a watch priced (MSRP) ~$2500 and one priced ~$1500 (give or take 15%), I'd pick the less expensive one nine of ten times.

When someone says they specifically want a given Tag, Breitling, or most other watches of that ilk, I generally won't any more bother trying on a forum to convince them that they should look a few rungs lower in price instead. All that gets me is a lot of "back and forth" and it's just not worth it to me to deal with that.

I already shared my thinking about Tag specifically:I don't really have a different opinion about Breitling.

Are Tags and Breitlings nice watches? Yes, they are. That's not ever been in doubt as far as I'm concerned. Could one get effectively the same thing for less money? Absolutely. That's less true today than it was when I made the first post cited above, but it's still true.

I should at this point note that my idea of "stepping up their game" can happen in multiple ways:
  • Offering more at the lower price points of say the basic Aquaracer models while keeping the price at ~$1500 or so.
  • Offering something that one can only get from the given maker at higher price points.
Omega plays in the middle tier, but one can get their co-axial escapement movement and/or a Gerald Genta original design for a mid-tier price. There's no other place else one can go to to get that, so that makes those Omega's a good thing to buy.

Hamilton tiptoe around the bottom of the middle tier also. But their Valjoux-based H-21 and H-31 movements are solid, but more importantly they offer something over the movements on which they are based: increased accuracy and a larger power reserve. Those two features aren't the most Earth shattering things one will find, but it's something, and something tangible. And that is more than what Tag have historically done with the movements they received from third party suppliers.

"Historically done" is the key. Tag and Breitling are upping their game, and that makes their non-entry level products better buys. Their entry level wares haven't ever been the issue; they've always been good buys. But most folks don't hop onto forums asking about entry level watches. I don't know why that is; I just know that it is. Everyone seems to want to spend more and feel better for having done so.

The truth of the matter is that with just about every watch company out there, the best buy is their entry level watch. Almost without exception these days, the entry level watch has everything the pricier ones have, except the higher price tag. With Rolex, the Air King had exactly the same movement inside that the Submariner No Date, Explorer I and Oyster Perpetual had. It was a few millimeters smaller, and half the price of a Sub/Explorer. Now you tell me, are a few millimeters on the case and bracelet, worth $4K to you to get an Explorer or Sub?

Yet that's what everyone wants to buy. Fine by me. It makes getting a good price on the Air King or Oyster Perpetual easier. Now that the Air King has been discontinued, it's destined to become a collector's item and within a few years will start to rise in price on the pre-owned market. It won't be long before, like every other discontinued Rolex, it sells for more than it did new. That while the price of a new Sub drops the instant one leaves the store in which it was bought.

Getting back to Tag and other mid-tier watches....The thing in my mind is that even as Tag, Breitling and their ilk are indeed stepping up their game, they haven't done so across their lines. The low end Aquaracer is still a better buy, but at least now the 1887 and 1969 are at least somewhat unique to Tag.

The 1887 still uses an oscillating pinon clutch rather than a vertical clutch as the 1969 does, so as a chronograph it's just less accurate re: its stopwatch functionality. That's really a shame for Tag made their name on chronographs; therefore, in my mind, their top models should be fully first rate pieces. So though the 1887 is pretty, it's not really a better machine than a great many other chrono movements that appear in watches costing far less.

Aesthetically, Tag are finally taking a somewhat bolder stance with their designs and not merely mimicking and minorly tweaking the styling found from other makers. (For years the Aquaracer was Tag's take on a Rolex Sub. Their Link models were essentially Tag's take on Bertolucci's bracelet design.) That's a good thing, IMO. It means there is at least a reason to want a Tag, a reason other than that it's a more affordable way to get nice watch at a price below Rolex, Bertolucci, or someone else's. In short, Tag are finally offering watches that one cannot go anywhere else and get something similar unless one buys a Tag-inspired/homage watch.

Are there Tags that make sense to buy? Sure there are. The Monaco is one of them. It's a design that entirely unique to Tag. It doesn't even matter what's inside; it's singularly a Tag watch. Tag's Mikro-series of watches are also ones I'd buy.

Would I choose an 1889? No, I wouldn't. I would either buy a less pricey one that has the same compromises the 1887 does, or I'd save a bit longer and get one having the 1969 inside.

With regard to the choices offered in this thread, I'd buy buy a Ball rather than the Tag, and the Ball I'd buy would have tritium tube lume on it. Why? Because tritium tube lume rocks!! It always works and doesn't need charging. But more importantly, several of Ball's watches that have it are styles of watch that aren't anywhere else offered with tritium tube lume. You just plain won't see another dress watch that has that lume on it. And quite frankly, tritium lume is handy as hell in the dark; if one spends a lot of time doing things in the dark -- clubbing, driving, working, etc. -- it's super nice to be able to see the markers and hands on one's watch. I love my tritium tube watch. I love that when I wake in the middle of the night and glance at it to see the time, I can tell what time it is.

If one just wants to, there're even a Ball for BMW watches. (I think they are a bit pricey as go Ball watches but if one wants the BMW novelty, have at it. I can see myself buying one, but then I'm 56 and have pretty well decided that a BMW will always be my daily driver car, so I won't find it weird to drive, say a Mercedes, and wear a roundel bearing watch.)



All the best.
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      02-27-2015, 12:27 PM   #58
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Wow. Another great post. I did peruse your link about TAG and its relative value. I would only quibble with one fact: you said that Frederique Constant is a Swatch Group watch, which I believe is incorrect. Being an Alpina fan, It's my understanding that they are independent (FC owns Alpina).

My daily is an Alpina Avalanche Chrono Automatic.
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      02-27-2015, 02:09 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric@helix View Post
Wow. Another great post. I did peruse your link about TAG and its relative value. I would only quibble with one fact: you said that Frederique Constant is a Swatch Group watch, which I believe is incorrect. Being an Alpina fan, It's my understanding that they are independent (FC owns Alpina).

My daily is an Alpina Avalanche Chrono Automatic.
Yes, you are right. I don't know why I wrote that for I know they and Alpina are sister companies, but I sure did write that.

TY for pointing it out. I'll correct.

All the best.
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      06-27-2015, 07:28 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
LOVE my Monaco.

Love mine too



Like my Grand Carrera too



To OP: buy what you like because you've got to live with your choice unlike those around you (like us for instance) who don't!
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