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      12-04-2019, 09:15 PM   #1343
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Looks like 2,480ish Supras YTD and ~1,263 Supras on dealers lots. So, some 1200 probably sold to actual customers.

Based on what I saw last month it seems like 100ish Supras got actually sold in November.
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      12-06-2019, 08:54 AM   #1344
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Originally Posted by spiceyxi View Post
Looks like 2,480ish Supras YTD and ~1,263 Supras on dealers lots. So, some 1200 probably sold to actual customers.

Based on what I saw last month it seems like 100ish Supras got actually sold in November.
Does anyone remember, or did they even state sales goals? IE, it will take X number of cars sold per month/year to = success.
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      12-06-2019, 11:58 AM   #1345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hybris View Post
I'm starting to wonder whether they send all the lemons to the US or something. I'm on my third BMW and never had any major problems, also never been worried about it breaking down - while you guys seem like you can't drive further than your local grocery store because you fear the car will fall apart.

BMW is not rated as any worse than other major brands here in Europe, and overall customer satisfaction is very high.
That's because europeans have a FAR higher tolerance for reliability issues. most european cars are absolute garbage in terms of reliability and cost of repairs.

The best one for me is the Golf which is regarded as rock solid in europe but seen as questionable at best here.

I say all this as an owner of Alfas, BMWs and a Saab.
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      12-06-2019, 03:25 PM   #1346
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I’d say that service schedules and habits are different as well.
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      12-07-2019, 02:18 AM   #1347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
That's because europeans have a FAR higher tolerance for reliability issues. most european cars are absolute garbage in terms of reliability and cost of repairs.

The best one for me is the Golf which is regarded as rock solid in europe but seen as questionable at best here.

I say all this as an owner of Alfas, BMWs and a Saab.
Well, Alfa and Saab is actually the least reliable ones, so you weren't that lucky with your pick.

Apart from that it's an interesting comment, we say the same about american brands. So probably a bit of bias involved. But objectively , especially build quality is way worse in american brands compared to european (no, I'm not talking just about Tesla).

The major german brands are generally reliable (BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche, Audi). The last decade or so, Skoda, Opel and even Renault and Peugeot (the last two used to struggle) are quite good. Volvo is also good.

Saab is bankrupt..and Alfa is italian - those guys struggle to build anything reliable, but iusually quite sexy (Lamborghini, Ferrari, Pagani)
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      12-07-2019, 09:30 AM   #1348
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BMW, Audi and Mercedes are not reliable, at all. Almost no one buys used if they can afford it, they are notorious for problems and expensive problems.

Domestics are regraded as junk too, but the Japanese have it all over both domestics and euromobiles. North Americans also do far, far mor emiles than europenas.
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      12-15-2019, 11:39 AM   #1349
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Bunch of Supra's from SEMA:

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      12-15-2019, 11:52 AM   #1350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hybris View Post
Apart from that it's an interesting comment, we say the same about american brands. So probably a bit of bias involved. But objectively , especially build quality is way worse in american brands compared to european (no, I'm not talking just about Tesla).
Ironic, because many American brands have FAR better in reliability than German brands. That old myth that American cars suck and have poor reliability is bias on your part. Now if you don't like American cars and they suck for other reasons, that's fine, but that's not what we are talking about here.
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      12-15-2019, 12:01 PM   #1351
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Ironic, because many American brands have FAR better in reliability than German brands. That old myth that American cars suck and have poor reliability is bias on your part. Now if you don't like American cars and they suck for other reasons, that's fine, but that's not what we are talking about here.
The GM twin midsize trucks are BY FAR the least reliable new vehicle out right now. Their 'new' 8 speed trannies are absolute garbage, and they have tons of electrical problems. 2nd is the Camaro... American quality is usually pretty garbage IMO.
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      12-15-2019, 12:30 PM   #1352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
The GM twin midsize trucks are BY FAR the least reliable new vehicle out right now. Their 'new' 8 speed trannies are absolute garbage, and they have tons of electrical problems. 2nd is the Camaro... American quality is usually pretty garbage IMO.
That may be true, don't know. Show some data. Either way, you are referring to a specific model, not an entire brand (for disclosure, I'm not a GM fan, but I am a fan of actual data).

On that note, EVERY BMW model has massive issues with gaskets, plus a variety of minor issues, annoyances, and long term reliability problems. That's an entire brand, not just one model with a transmission that is actually sourced from a 3rd party supplier. All of us here know that is true, but we still somehow like BMW!
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      12-15-2019, 12:42 PM   #1353
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2019 Reliability Ratings:
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/ratings

GM finished 1st, Ford finished 2nd. This is despite the fact that Americans complain about American cars more than Japanese cars or European cars (long explanation behind psychology behind that behavior that I don't have time to get into). That doesn't mean we have to like the actual cars that these brands are producing, it just means that we can't make current statements about reliability based on historical shortcomings.

BTW, nice M2C!!

Last edited by thebmw; 12-15-2019 at 12:48 PM..
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      12-16-2019, 03:48 PM   #1354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
2019 Reliability Ratings:
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/ratings

GM finished 1st, Ford finished 2nd. This is despite the fact that Americans complain about American cars more than Japanese cars or European cars (long explanation behind psychology behind that behavior that I don't have time to get into). That doesn't mean we have to like the actual cars that these brands are producing, it just means that we can't make current statements about reliability based on historical shortcomings.

BTW, nice M2C!!
Hang on ... Which brand finished 3rd in your reference above?

BMW.

Yet, in the post previous to this one, you go on and on about how every BMW has gasket issues, issues, annoyances, et. al.

I think the point to be made here is that one can fudge stats just about any way one wants. (J.D. Power certainly does.)

It's no secret that American marques have made great inroads into debunking its poor-reliability stereotype. It's also no secret that Japanese marques have lost ground in the same field. It's no secret, as well, that Italian- and British-built marques bring up the rear.

What no one seems to want to acknowledge is what the 4th-place finisher in the provided results -- Kia -- represents: : How comparatively reliable most Korean marques now are.
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      12-16-2019, 03:54 PM   #1355
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Just about any car is dead reliable now. Well, barring Alfa. Since so many cars are half liter per cylinder with a ZF8, it's perhaps not that surprising.
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      12-16-2019, 04:18 PM   #1356
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      12-16-2019, 04:24 PM   #1357
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Well, I wonder how they measure their reliability metrics. If that’s just over the warranty period then BMWs are dead reliable.
Was looking at my cars service records and before the end of warranty it only had tire and oil changes. There might have been an ofhg leak and vanos solenoid replacement, but these might have been at 80kmiles. There also was a valve cover gasket leak at 80kmiles, too. I was very shocked by the quotes to get these repairs as well as the run flat tire prices, though.
Anyways, these were all past the regular warranty period so not likely to be caught by JD Power
@VifferMike - am I correct to assume that viffer in your nickname refers to Honda VFR?
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      12-16-2019, 04:59 PM   #1358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastboatster View Post
Well, I wonder how they measure their reliability metrics. If that’s just over the warranty period then BMWs are dead reliable.
Was looking at my cars service records and before the end of warranty it only had tire and oil changes. There might have been an ofhg leak and vanos solenoid replacement, but these might have been at 80kmiles. There also was a valve cover gasket leak at 80kmiles, too. I was very shocked by the quotes to get these repairs as well as the run flat tire prices, though.
Anyways, these were all past the regular warranty period so not likely to be caught by JD Power
@VifferMike - am I correct to assume that viffer in your nickname refers to Honda VFR?
There is a reason why many warranty time periods/mileage are set. Very unlikely a OEMs car will break with in 3 years/30k miles. They realize if it does, you deserve it to be fixed. That 4-5+ year is when things start happening.
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      12-16-2019, 05:26 PM   #1359
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@VifferMike - am I correct to assume that viffer in your nickname refers to Honda VFR?
Yessir. Rode a lightly customized first-run '02 Interceptor for several years; was my last bike, and the one I owned the longest. I haven't ridden in more than a decade but the S/N's stuck, dating from my presence on motorcycle forums and such.
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      12-16-2019, 06:25 PM   #1360
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Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
Yessir. Rode a lightly customized first-run '02 Interceptor for several years; was my last bike, and the one I owned the longest. I haven't ridden in more than a decade but the S/N's stuck, dating from my presence on motorcycle forums and such.
Got it. Former gixxer “squid” here, not that I really was a squid, though)
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      12-16-2019, 08:19 PM   #1361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
2019 Reliability Ratings:
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/ratings

GM finished 1st, Ford finished 2nd. This is despite the fact that Americans complain about American cars more than Japanese cars or European cars (long explanation behind psychology behind that behavior that I don't have time to get into). That doesn't mean we have to like the actual cars that these brands are producing, it just means that we can't make current statements about reliability based on historical shortcomings.

BTW, nice M2C!!
Part of the confusion is that 'quality' and 'reliability' are two different things.

The ford mustang has horrible panel gaps, but that doesn't mean it'll necessarily break down.

My old 350z had a cheap, junky interior with plastics that were hard and scratchy and a bunch of black paint that would peel off any time you touched it with a fingernail.

But it also pretty much didn't break through 13 years of ownership and close to 100K miles. And I drove the absolute crap out of that car, even beating on it on gravel roads from time to time.
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      12-16-2019, 09:10 PM   #1362
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Speaking of 350z - I thought about getting one, it looks like the early years are very problematic, 6mt wears out quickly and the engine consumes a lot of oil. So I guess even generally solid cars can have years to avoid even among the same generation. How did you like yours, they also seem to be somewhat heavy for a sporty car like this.
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      12-16-2019, 09:21 PM   #1363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
Hang on ... Which brand finished 3rd in your reference above?

BMW.

Yet, in the post previous to this one, you go on and on about how every BMW has gasket issues, issues, annoyances, et. al.

I think the point to be made here is that one can fudge stats just about any way one wants. (J.D. Power certainly does.)

It's no secret that American marques have made great inroads into debunking its poor-reliability stereotype. It's also no secret that Japanese marques have lost ground in the same field. It's no secret, as well, that Italian- and British-built marques bring up the rear.

What no one seems to want to acknowledge is what the 4th-place finisher in the provided results -- Kia -- represents: : How comparatively reliable most Korean marques now are.
Mike, we are saying the same thing. The point was that previous reputations don't always hold true. But yes, isn't it amazing that BMW is ranking third. I'm not sure if that speaks more to JD Powers way of assessing brand reliability or how poor some other manufacturers are.
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      12-16-2019, 09:24 PM   #1364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastboatster View Post
Well, I wonder how they measure their reliability metrics. If that’s just over the warranty period then BMWs are dead reliable.
They usually base it on initial reliability. It is not based on how long these things last after 5 years.
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