N52 before and after nitrous dyno

[JimD]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

Even then, if the goal is more power, go for more power. Nick G(under the name of MaxPSI) makes a really good DD friendly S54 turbo kit that puts down serious power.

I simply don't get the allure of nitrous. It gives you a stat sheet number, not a real performance change.

I would phrase it that nitrous gives you high power for only a limited time period, not continuously. I think that is interesting because we can rarely use all the power we have anyway. A burst of high power at just the right time could be fun. But it won't help your track times and is much more suited to drag racing (which BMWs aren't really well suited for IMHO) or messing around. It seems like the latter is more the goal in this case.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

Even then, if the goal is more power, go for more power. Nick G(under the name of MaxPSI) makes a really good DD friendly S54 turbo kit that puts down serious power.

I simply don't get the allure of nitrous. It gives you a stat sheet number, not a real performance change.

Agreed. Drop in an S54, find more fuel, add giant turbos courtesy of UGR/MaxPSI/whoever, make silly numbers on pump gas, move on. All while putting down ridiculous traps, ETs, all that good stuff.

Or sit on a dyno with an alu block and hope it doesn't melt while you spray.

Choice seems obvious

[TheSt|G]

I guess at the end of the day, the best way to put is that there is another very good car that is nearly identical to the 128i that gives the owner the ability to have silly power figures.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

Agreed. Drop in an S54, find more fuel, add giant turbos courtesy of UGR/MaxPSI/whoever, make silly numbers on pump gas, move on. All while putting down ridiculous traps, ETs, all that good stuff.

Or sit on a dyno with an alu block and hope it doesn't melt while you spray.

Choice seems obvious

1950s metallurgy called, they want their skeptics back :P
Tell that to the VQ and LSx Engines.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

1950s metallurgy called, they want their skeptics back :P
Tell that to the VQ and LSx Engines.

LSx are semi-closed or fully closed decks with at a minimum, iron lined sleeves. Surely you aren't comparing an N52 to an LSx from the standpoint of robustness because they are not in the same zip code. The 52 is an outstanding motor, but not a power platform. I'm not sure if the crank of the 52 is forged, I tend to doubt it.

VQ motors don't make power on stock blocks. 26DETT is one thing, recent VQs are not impressive in my mind. Sound nice though...

Bottom line: if you want to make big power with a BMW, you use an S54. Maybe a 65. I couldn't think of a much more poorly suited motor from BMW to spray on than the N52. It’s not meant for boost, it’s not meant for power, it sure as hell isn’t meant for spray.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

LSx are semi-closed or fully closed decks with at a minimum, iron lined sleeves. Surely you aren't comparing an N52 to an LSx from the standpoint of robustness because they are not in the same zip code. The 52 is an outstanding motor, but not a power platform. I'm not sure if the crank of the 52 is forged, I tend to doubt it.

VQ motors don't make power on stock blocks. 26DETT is one thing, recent VQs are not impressive in my mind. Sound nice though...

Bottom line: if you want to make big power with a BMW, you use an S54. Maybe a 65. I couldn't think of a much more poorly suited motor from BMW to spray on than the N52. It’s not meant for boost, it’s not meant for power, it sure as hell isn’t meant for spray.

Define "power" on stock block?

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Define "power" on stock block?

35s let go in a hurry, and 37s hold what, 6-8 pounds before the bottom end starts to run in opposite directions? The limits for stock internal cars are what in the 450-550 wheel range? I could be wrong there, i'm not a VQ expert and don't pretend to be. But relative to the motors being discussed, no that is not a lot of power on a stock block.

S54s will make twice that all day long. I’m not knocking any of the aforementioned platforms. They’re all great in different regards. My motor will never sound like a VQ, and that makes me jealous.

But when we’re talking big power, stock block setups…No, neither the N52 nor the VQ are strong platforms. Just my 2C.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

35s let go in a hurry, and 37s hold what, 6-8 pounds before the bottom end starts to run in opposite directions? The limits for stock internal cars are what in the 450-550 wheel range? I could be wrong there, i'm not a VQ expert and don't pretend to be. But relative to the motors being discussed, no that is not a lot of power on a stock block.

S54s will make twice that all day long. I’m not knocking any of the aforementioned platforms. They’re all great in different regards. My motor will never sound like a VQ, and that makes me jealous.

But when we’re talking big power, stock block setups…No, neither the N52 nor the VQ are strong platforms. Just my 2C.

Double/triple stock whp output isn't a lot? What planet do you live on?

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Double/triple stock whp output isn't a lot? What planet do you live on?

In relative terms, of course it's a lot of power. But again, we're talking about motors that take well to nitrous on stock internals. The people doing that are usually shooting for BIG numbers. And in that world, no, 400-500WHP is pretty modest.

My point wasn't to try to bash other platforms or the N52. Main point was that if your goal is big power on a BMW, you go with an S54. That's been the case for a decade, and will likely continue to be the case until someone figures out a standalone ECU for S85 forced induction or gets the S63 to play nice. I just don't understand why you'd go through the trouble and risk to run nitrous on a motor like the 52. It'll never be a huge power platform, and you run a serious risk of melting expensive metal.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

In relative terms, of course it's a lot of power. But again, we're talking about motors that take well to nitrous on stock internals. The people doing that are usually shooting for BIG numbers. And in that world, no, 400-500WHP is pretty modest.

My point wasn't to try to bash other platforms or the N52. Main point was that if your goal is big power on a BMW, you go with an S54. That's been the case for a decade, and will likely continue to be the case until someone figures out a standalone ECU for S85 forced induction or gets the S63 to play nice. I just don't understand why you'd go through the trouble and risk to run nitrous on a motor like the 52. It'll never be a huge power platform, and you run a serious risk of melting expensive metal.

Honestly, I could care less about dyno dick stroking. If he wants to try it and is aware of the risk, I say go for it. Research for the rest of us.

And for OP, I'd consider some form of stronger/powerful standalone system that has a RPM switch/Map switch for when N20 is activivated to make the valvetiming/a-F/timing adjustments needed.

[kobeballer96]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Honestly, I could care less about dyno dick stroking. If he wants to try it and is aware of the risk, I say go for it. Research for the rest of us.

And for OP, I'd consider some form of stronger/powerful standalone system that has a RPM switch/Map switch for when N20 is activivated to make the valvetiming/a-F/timing adjustments needed.

I talked to another member that's been spraying his n52 for two years and he's been running a electronic sensor for fuel pressure, nitrous pressure, bottle temperature as a safety device, and a PLC controller to control everything on a AA nitrous tune. I'm making a list for the safety devices, and as for a standalone motec would be idea but I don't want to lose all the bells and whistles since this isn't a race car. Just a fun weekend track car/ rolling races for fun type of deal. I plan on only running a nitrous map on OFT on nights where I plan on spraying and then just a regular tune when I'm off the bottle for every day DD.

[Pothole]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

What are heads? Engine generally only has a head...

I suspect there was something lost in translation here. Last I heard on this project it was just a straight S54 swap, which would make the most sense from a motorsport perspective.

I mean the head. Including valves & cams.

I emailed them for details and will post here after receipt of response.

[JimD]

I do not see a strong technical basis to claim that a n52 is a poor candidate for power increase including by spraying. I see why somebody wanting to autocross or road race is not impressed by spray power. But I do not see a basis for the comments on the aluminum block or the lack of steel liners. Porsche motors, including boosted ones, use the same unlined silicon aluminum block of the n52. In other words, the Porsche equivalent of a n54 is unlined aluminum silicon like the n52. The aluminum + magnesium block would be more of a concern to me but only because it is rare and it seems like the two castings could come apart. But for me to say that makes it weaker and unsuitable for a large power increase would just be speculation.

Airplanes are aluminum, vette motors are mainly aluminum. I know of one vette motor that has dyno'd around 800 hp (it's turbo charged) and it is a decent daily driver. Seems like a lot for a "weak" aluminum block. I think there is reason to be cautious until there is experience doing this but I don't see a reason to speculate and pretend it is fact.

Both the n52 and n54 have one solid piece for all the main bearing caps. That is race car technology, something no vette has. So in at least that way the n52 is extremely suitable for a large power increase.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by JimD

I do not see a strong technical basis to claim that a n52 is a poor candidate for power increase including by spraying. I see why somebody wanting to autocross or road race is not impressed by spray power. But I do not see a basis for the comments on the aluminum block or the lack of steel liners. Porsche motors, including boosted ones, use the same unlined silicon aluminum block of the n52. In other words, the Porsche equivalent of a n54 is unlined aluminum silicon like the n52. The aluminum + magnesium block would be more of a concern to me but only because it is rare and it seems like the two castings could come apart. But for me to say that makes it weaker and unsuitable for a large power increase would just be speculation.

Airplanes are aluminum, vette motors are mainly aluminum. I know of one vette motor that has dyno'd around 800 hp (it's turbo charged) and it is a decent daily driver. Seems like a lot for a "weak" aluminum block. I think there is reason to be cautious until there is experience doing this but I don't see a reason to speculate and pretend it is fact.

Both the n52 and n54 have one solid piece for all the main bearing caps. That is race car technology, something no vette has. So in at least that way the n52 is extremely suitable for a large power increase.

I'll stop after this as my goal here really isn't to ruffle feathers, but the N52 simply put is not a platform that was designed for big power.

You are totally correct that LS motors have been made of alu, though generally they are sleeved. We also have to consider over vs undersquare designs, the (imo) poor oil circulation on the 52/54 series of motor, relative to P-car motors. The scavenging system on a 996TT is in another universe than our platform. Most LS motors are partially closed decks, Porsche motors are fully closed decks, N52s are fully open decks. From what I understand of the design, the water jacket is not set particularly high in the crank either.

When you add up the materials of the block, the lack of cylinder sleeves, the high native CR, the open deck, the cast magnesium crank case and cast crankshaft, the fact that the gaskets and retainers are not meant for boost and the cylinder pressures that accompany spray...

It's not a strong candidate for nitrous, in my opinion. Just my 2C, doesn't change the fact that it is an exceptional motor in almost every regard.

[kobeballer96]

I'm just going to say this if the n52 is still running strong after being sprayed for 2 years and over 20 bottles she's good to go for sometime.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

I'll stop after this as my goal here really isn't to ruffle feathers, but the N52 simply put is not a platform that was designed for big power.

You are totally correct that LS motors have been made of alu, though generally they are sleeved. We also have to consider over vs undersquare designs, the (imo) poor oil circulation on the 52/54 series of motor, relative to P-car motors. The scavenging system on a 996TT is in another universe than our platform. Most LS motors are partially closed decks, Porsche motors are fully closed decks, N52s are fully open decks. From what I understand of the design, the water jacked is not set particularly high in the crank either.

When you add up the materials of the block, the lack of cylinder sleeves, the high native CR, the open deck, the cast magnesium crank case and cast crankshaft, the fact that the gaskets and retainers are not meant for boost and the cylinder pressures that accompany spray...

It's not a strong candidate for nitrous, in my opinion. Just my 2C, doesn't change the fact that it is an exceptional motor in almost every regard.

Well said.

[edisapimp]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

I'll stop after this as my goal here really isn't to ruffle feathers, but the N52 simply put is not a platform that was designed for big power.

You are totally correct that LS motors have been made of alu, though generally they are sleeved. We also have to consider over vs undersquare designs, the (imo) poor oil circulation on the 52/54 series of motor, relative to P-car motors. The scavenging system on a 996TT is in another universe than our platform. Most LS motors are partially closed decks, Porsche motors are fully closed decks, N52s are fully open decks. From what I understand of the design, the water jacked is not set particularly high in the crank either.

When you add up the materials of the block, the lack of cylinder sleeves, the high native CR, the open deck, the cast magnesium crank case and cast crankshaft, the fact that the gaskets and retainers are not meant for boost and the cylinder pressures that accompany spray...

It's not a strong candidate for nitrous, in my opinion. Just my 2C, doesn't change the fact that it is an exceptional motor in almost every regard.

Thank you for saying this. It's scary when people who don't know what actually happens inside of an engine compare one to another (that's probably an insult).

Also just a quick aside, the RB26DETT wasn't a VQ. The RBs (excluding the single cams) were as close to "perfect" as I've ever seen in their day.

[Pothole]

I have recieved an email with info on the rally car. It is the block from a 125i (n52) with the head of an E46 M3.

[kobeballer96]

Originally Posted by Pothole

I have recieved an email with info on the rally car. It is the block from a 125i (n52) with the head of an E46 M3.

Ha knew it! E46 m3 head probably flows better and also running itbs. I know are bottom end blocks aren't weak.

[Obioban]

Fun N52 bottom end pic that just got posted on reddit this morning:

[kobeballer96]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Fun N52 bottom end pic that just got posted on reddit this morning:

Peakaboo lol. So who's block is this and what was the cause?

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

I'll stop after this as my goal here really isn't to ruffle feathers, but the N52 simply put is not a platform that was designed for big power.

You are totally correct that LS motors have been made of alu, though generally they are sleeved. We also have to consider over vs undersquare designs, the (imo) poor oil circulation on the 52/54 series of motor, relative to P-car motors. The scavenging system on a 996TT is in another universe than our platform. Most LS motors are partially closed decks, Porsche motors are fully closed decks, N52s are fully open decks. From what I understand of the design, the water jacket is not set particularly high in the crank either.

When you add up the materials of the block, the lack of cylinder sleeves, the high native CR, the open deck, the cast magnesium crank case and cast crankshaft, the fact that the gaskets and retainers are not meant for boost and the cylinder pressures that accompany spray...

It's not a strong candidate for nitrous, in my opinion. Just my 2C, doesn't change the fact that it is an exceptional motor in almost every regard.

Spot on and well written.