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BMW 5-Series (G30) Forum Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain, Tuning Modifications Piggyback vs ECU flash if both produce 600hp

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      01-25-2020, 08:39 AM   #1
Dutt1113
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Piggyback vs ECU flash if both produce 600hp

What is the point of an ecu flash if a good piggyback like JB4 or expensive Dinan (warranty) if both produce 600hp at the crank? The piggyback will be removable and won't void your warranty.
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      01-25-2020, 12:37 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Dutt1113 View Post
What is the point of an ecu flash if a good piggyback like JB4 or expensive Dinan (warranty) if both produce 600hp at the crank? The piggyback will be removable and won't void your warranty.
This is a loaded question. Dinan is not making 600hp from their piggy. My flash tune doesn't even make 600hp. Don't go by advertising and what their websites say. Go by what people have done at the track or dragy with stage 1 tunes or a piggy back.

I have the Dinan for 2019M550 and it was a great breath of fresh air for my car, a solid 45-55hp over stock. My stock f10 M5 that dyno'd 504 to the wheels would slowly walk away on a 40 roll from the M550 with Dinan. 0-60 there's no competition but it's due to traction. 1/4 M550 probably still beats f10 M5 but due to traction again.
Just saying watch out for all the claims of what your reading as advertisements
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      01-28-2020, 10:46 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutt1113 View Post
What is the point of an ecu flash if a good piggyback like JB4 or expensive Dinan (warranty) if both produce 600hp at the crank? The piggyback will be removable and won't void your warranty.
The biggest advantage for an ECU flash if done right is the power delivery. Its much smoother on an ECU flash vs a piggyback
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      07-20-2020, 03:21 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
The biggest advantage for an ECU flash if done right is the power delivery. Its much smoother on an ECU flash vs a piggyback
It looks like you are a vendor for both flash and piggy back tunes, however I am curious how far the flash tuners for the M550i go that are generally sold via the vendors? I am more familiar with Weistec, Eurocharged and Renntech coming from my AMG days and I never got around to tuning my old E60 M5,but I spent a lot of time tuning my Chevy LS powered cars. I have seen tuners (at the owners request) squeeze everything they could from their engine at a risk of longevity. I am just curious if the power these tuners put in their standard flash tunes is not so called pushing the envelope on these engines. And yes, I am aware that if you can't afford to pay, don't play but most tuners can tune a car that can make great power a handful of times before a tear down is needed. Are you aware of any tuning mistakes from these canned tunes or excessive maintenance after decent time on the tunes?

On a side note, do you know if there are any differences between the base JB4 and Berger Stage 1 tunes for the car? Is the additional cost only in the added features of the JB4 or are the tunes different as well? I emailed them directly but have not heard back yet.

Yes, first time post on this forum as I just became an owner of the M550i, but I have always been an avid reader of this forum.

Last edited by drwoodberry; 07-20-2020 at 03:21 PM.. Reason: added remarks
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      07-20-2020, 05:21 PM   #5
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Anything can happen. There's results posted all over the forums with peoples results, just search.
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      07-20-2020, 06:14 PM   #6
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Anything can happen. There's results posted all over the forums with peoples results, just search.
Thanks for the smart answer and providing nothing useful to the post. I’m not a first time forum user and I do know how the search function works. I have done a great bit of searching but you don’t really find tuners sharing the adjustments they make, and yet alone most of the people getting tunes of any sort aren’t versed in every aspect of what is being adjusted. My question wasn’t based around results (HP/ft lbs) and the numbers tuners are getting can be manipulated by adjustments that are not necessarily going to let the engine last, for example excessive boost and lean conditions can make more power but reduce longevity and reliability. I haven’t seen a lot of information regarding how much boost or boost ramp up across the range or even the AFR that’s being targeted. So my question to the vendor is really have they seen the numbers and specifics around some of the tunes.
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      07-21-2020, 05:44 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by drwoodberry View Post
Thanks for the smart answer and providing nothing useful to the post. I’m not a first time forum user and I do know how the search function works. I have done a great bit of searching but you don’t really find tuners sharing the adjustments they make, and yet alone most of the people getting tunes of any sort aren’t versed in every aspect of what is being adjusted. My question wasn’t based around results (HP/ft lbs) and the numbers tuners are getting can be manipulated by adjustments that are not necessarily going to let the engine last, for example excessive boost and lean conditions can make more power but reduce longevity and reliability. I haven’t seen a lot of information regarding how much boost or boost ramp up across the range or even the AFR that’s being targeted. So my question to the vendor is really have they seen the numbers and specifics around some of the tunes.
So we're just to assume you want specific technical information without asking for it? Gotcha.

You will find more information on the N54 forums. Also you're more likely to get a reply from the folks that tune em.

Terry helped me get my settings dialed in for boost/afr/ff/pid/duty bias. (for my mods and flash)
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      07-22-2020, 08:04 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by ZulaM5 View Post
So we're just to assume you want specific technical information without asking for it? Gotcha.

You will find more information on the N54 forums. Also you're more likely to get a reply from the folks that tune em.

Terry helped me get my settings dialed in for boost/afr/ff/pid/duty bias. (for my mods and flash)
I can see how my question was a little vague, some intentional. I will check out the N54 forum in more detail, I just stumbled upon that yesterday. I was actually hoping more graphs would show AFR, but not many do and I wish it was easier to find the max PSI some of these tunes are running. Many people are number chasers and don't truly consider what added stresses are being put on the mechanics.

Can I ask how flat your AFR line is and what it is?
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      07-22-2020, 06:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AddyDaddy View Post
This is a loaded question. Dinan is not making 600hp from their piggy. My flash tune doesn't even make 600hp. Don't go by advertising and what their websites say. Go by what people have done at the track or dragy with stage 1 tunes or a piggy back.

I have the Dinan for 2019M550 and it was a great breath of fresh air for my car, a solid 45-55hp over stock. My stock f10 M5 that dyno'd 504 to the wheels would slowly walk away on a 40 roll from the M550 with Dinan. 0-60 there's no competition but it's due to traction. 1/4 M550 probably still beats f10 M5 but due to traction again.
Just saying watch out for all the claims of what your reading as advertisements
Thinking about M550 after my F10 M5, how does it compare with a flash tune and DPs to the F10?
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      07-24-2020, 05:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drwoodberry View Post
I can see how my question was a little vague, some intentional. I will check out the N54 forum in more detail, I just stumbled upon that yesterday. I was actually hoping more graphs would show AFR, but not many do and I wish it was easier to find the max PSI some of these tunes are running. Many people are number chasers and don't truly consider what added stresses are being put on the mechanics.

Can I ask how flat your AFR line is and what it is?
This is one of my very first 10 second runs.

I'm now peaking at 24 psi.
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File Type: zip 10 Second Run.zip (2.5 KB, 88 views)
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      07-24-2020, 06:16 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ZulaM5 View Post
This is one of my very first 10 second runs.

I'm now peaking at 24 psi.
Thanks for sharing. What tune/mods do you have done? One thing I found interesting is the AFR going very lean once it indicated you were in 6th gear. Is that just the throttle closing I assume?

10 seconds is moving. Really impressive.
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      07-25-2020, 02:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drwoodberry View Post
Thanks for sharing. What tune/mods do you have done? One thing I found interesting is the AFR going very lean once it indicated you were in 6th gear. Is that just the throttle closing I assume?

10 seconds is moving. Really impressive.
Yes. Flash+JB4, Downpipes, Exhaust, straight pipe, 3.5 BAR TMAP Sensors.

Last edited by ZulaM5; 07-25-2020 at 02:36 PM..
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      08-01-2020, 11:35 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Jonzny View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AddyDaddy View Post
This is a loaded question. Dinan is not making 600hp from their piggy. My flash tune doesn't even make 600hp. Don't go by advertising and what their websites say. Go by what people have done at the track or dragy with stage 1 tunes or a piggy back.

I have the Dinan for 2019M550 and it was a great breath of fresh air for my car, a solid 45-55hp over stock. My stock f10 M5 that dyno'd 504 to the wheels would slowly walk away on a 40 roll from the M550 with Dinan. 0-60 there's no competition but it's due to traction. 1/4 M550 probably still beats f10 M5 but due to traction again.
Just saying watch out for all the claims of what your reading as advertisements
Thinking about M550 after my F10 M5, how does it compare with a flash tune and DPs to the F10?
It's hard to compare. With tune new car has about 30hp more than my M5. From a dig there's no comparison period 0-100. 60-100 my M550 seems heavier but I think 60-100 they would be about even due to drivetrain loss. Hard to say. I just raced a brand new M4 and being behind him by 2 cars and hitting the gas when I heard him hit it at 45mph by 70 I was next to him putting pace and by 100 I had 4 cars. So if you include him getting jump being 2 cars ahead and the distance I put on him by 100 I'd say M550 with the modest tune I have does pretty well. I wanted to put my rear window down as I was passing him to show him the baby seat i have anchored in the car
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      08-05-2020, 02:21 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by AddyDaddy View Post
It's hard to compare. With tune new car has about 30hp more than my M5. From a dig there's no comparison period 0-100. 60-100 my M550 seems heavier but I think 60-100 they would be about even due to drivetrain loss. Hard to say. I just raced a brand new M4 and being behind him by 2 cars and hitting the gas when I heard him hit it at 45mph by 70 I was next to him putting pace and by 100 I had 4 cars. So if you include him getting jump being 2 cars ahead and the distance I put on him by 100 I'd say M550 with the modest tune I have does pretty well. I wanted to put my rear window down as I was passing him to show him the baby seat i have anchored in the car
Thanks for the response. This is comparing a tuned M550 vs stock M5?

How does the tuned M550 feel in comparison to the M5 w tune and DP?

Either way sounds like this is the route I am going.
Torn between this and the M340, these new B58s seem to reliably hold quite a bit of power.
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      08-05-2020, 04:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonzny View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AddyDaddy View Post
It's hard to compare. With tune new car has about 30hp more than my M5. From a dig there's no comparison period 0-100. 60-100 my M550 seems heavier but I think 60-100 they would be about even due to drivetrain loss. Hard to say. I just raced a brand new M4 and being behind him by 2 cars and hitting the gas when I heard him hit it at 45mph by 70 I was next to him putting pace and by 100 I had 4 cars. So if you include him getting jump being 2 cars ahead and the distance I put on him by 100 I'd say M550 with the modest tune I have does pretty well. I wanted to put my rear window down as I was passing him to show him the baby seat i have anchored in the car
Thanks for the response. This is comparing a tuned M550 vs stock M5?

How does the tuned M550 feel in comparison to the M5 w tune and DP?

Either way sounds like this is the route I am going.
Torn between this and the M340, these new B58s seem to reliably hold quite a bit of power.
Yes tuned 2019 M550 and my F10 M5 with exhaust.
M550 with tune feels heavier. 60-100 I feel like it would be neck and neck, I can't say if I would have 2 cars ahead or behind.
0-60 or 0-100 M550 with tune would kill my M5 with exhaust period due to traction all day. It's why I love racing NOT the new vettes. Anything 2 wheel drive from a dig on non prepped track and doesn't have slicks cant compete with all wheel drive. So it's a conundrum.

The feeling of the cars are just so different from a full blown M 5 to as we say a half of an M being M550. Tune for sure wakes the car up. The new 3 series isn't a joke either for the money and can be tuned with great results.

I will tune any BMW I get due to the increases. I say this now as I haven't blown a motor
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      08-06-2020, 05:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AddyDaddy View Post
Yes tuned 2019 M550 and my F10 M5 with exhaust.
M550 with tune feels heavier. 60-100 I feel like it would be neck and neck, I can't say if I would have 2 cars ahead or behind.
0-60 or 0-100 M550 with tune would kill my M5 with exhaust period due to traction all day. It's why I love racing NOT the new vettes. Anything 2 wheel drive from a dig on non prepped track and doesn't have slicks cant compete with all wheel drive. So it's a conundrum.

The feeling of the cars are just so different from a full blown M 5 to as we say a half of an M being M550. Tune for sure wakes the car up. The new 3 series isn't a joke either for the money and can be tuned with great results.

I will tune any BMW I get due to the increases. I say this now as I haven't blown a motor
Haha blew the F10 M5 motor with a simple stage 1 BM3 tune...
Which is what is kind of pushing me to the M340i, the B58's are incredibly solid
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      08-21-2020, 10:59 PM   #17
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Main difference between a JB4 and a tune is the JB4 can only affect boost in a semi direct manner and a/f ratios / ignition timing in an extremely indirect manner (no matter what the dealers tell you).

A real tune can change everything that is "changeable" by an ecu (ignition timing, boost, a/f ratio, vanos which is cam timing and lift, throttle opening... all vanos engines still have a physical butterfly valve throttle, exhaust butterfly valves if you have it, etc.) it doesn't mean that you NEED to change these things and if you have a bad tune it can be worse than stock but assuming everything is done properly, you would rather have the ability to change these things than not, the stock ecu tune was optimized for a certain set of conditions that by definition you are stealing away from when you modify the car.

What any ecu does is take a bunch of inputs of sensors, compare them against a table of (what should I do if I see air temps here, rpm here, engine load here, driver pedal position here, etc ....) then do some things it looks up from a table "the tune " ( command a certain level of boost via the electronic waste gate, inject this much fuel, change ignition timing to this, use this vanos setting) while observing from other sensors whether things are safe and ok (measured air fuel ratio, exhaust temperature, boost measured, knock sensors, etc)

What the jb4 does is intercept the manifold air pressure and boost pressure sensor inputs into the ecu and tell them they are lower than they actually are so the stock ecu does not send a command to the waste gate to back off on the boost until much later than it otherwise would normally. That's it. That's how the jb4 makes power, full stop.

The problem is that ignition timing settings and to a certain extent vanos settings used by the ecu are now the settings that were optimized from the factory for 10psi of boost but in reality the boost level is 16psi or something. In the bad case scenario this is going to lead to knock (which the STOCK ECU will detect and retard timing). The best case scenario is you simply run suboptimal ignition timing and vanos which could be either (both) less smooth, less efficient (less power).


Air fuel ratio is a bit of a special case which I didn't include in the above because most modern engines run on closed loop cycle nearly all the time (it aims for 14.7 AFR nearly all the time and constantly checks the oxygen sensor to adjust the fueling to attain this) even when under load in high horsepower /throttle scenarios. In the old days turbo engines would just run rich in high throttle high boost situations (by operating open loop and commanding AFR of 9 or something) as the extra fuel being atomized in the intake charge would cool the intake charge and help prevent knocking. There's nothing about modern engines that would make this strategy not work, it's just bad for the environment so OEMs are highly disincentivized to go down this road in tuning strategy (something an aftermarket tuner has no issue with)

The JB4 hooks up to the obd2 and canbus so it had the ability to (listen) to the same sensors that the ecu is listening to but the jb4 has no way of actually changing AFR or ignition timing or vanos settings directly. In the above example of jb4 adding 6psi, let's say the ignition timing should be retarded 3 degrees or something compared to the stock timing in the same scenario the jb4 can't do this. It simply can't. The JB4 IS safer than other boost controllers that don't observe these settings because the JB4 can observe when things go wrong (it sees the stock ecu and "undo/back off" it's adjustments to the TMAP and boost sensors so the engine returns to "stock" conditions. This is a REACTIVE system not a PROTECTIVE one. I would also find it extremely dubious if someone claimed that the JB4 could predict the preconditions to knock occurring better than factory engineers (this would be the holy grail of tuning, to predict knock before it occurs, you wouldn't need a knock sensor now would u).

One might then ask, if the JB4 doesn't actually back off its adjustments until something bad actually occurs, and relies on the stock ecu to do so, how is it better than something like race chip which doesn't have this obd2/CANBUS listening system. Well consider the scenario where both systems are running the same setting (eg 6psi above stock boost) setting. When knock is detected the ecu will immediately back off timing for both cars. But it doesn't do it forever, knock is a rare thing for stock engines. The ecu will after a set amount of time return to its original programming. But we know the precursor to knock is highly likely to be because of the uprated boost conditions (in conjunctions with environmental factors that day, let's say it is really hot and dry day). As soon as the factory ecu returns to initial settings, knock occurs again. The jb4 can see (oh shit, knock is happening a lot in a short interval, maybe we should back off a bit, save this data in the logging file and let our user know, maybe only command +4psi instead), while the race chip will be happilly unaware and continue chugging along ignorantly. That's the reason why race chip doesn't add as much boost as jb4, racechip and jb4 does the same thing (manipulate what TMAP and boost sensor data the ecu "sees") but the jb4 is able to check its work whereas racechip cannot, so racechip engineers must specify a lower amount of excess boost it's system can "safely" provide.

An aftermarket tune is both better and worse than the jb4 in that factory engineers coded for a lot of those corner cases that took millions of dollars of development to find (those 1/100,000 scenarios). A JB4 "keeps" these settings intact but a custom tune wipes it out. At the end of the day, what's more important to you, that's something only you can decide for yourself.

Last edited by Knifeedge2k1; 08-21-2020 at 11:01 PM.. Reason: Spelling
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