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      04-22-2017, 09:58 PM   #45
GrussGott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Who's on first View Post
So disappointed in mine. Clunky, not the smoothest nor the fastest. What's the point?
I love the M-DCT, and think it's perfect for the M4 (both control, feel, and speed, and I only drive it manually), but I understand people who'd like a smoother transmission.

This has been AMG's argument for the MCT: way smoother, way more capable, and in the latest iteration, just as fast as a DCT with a new 9 speed coming out.

It's an interesting case from a dork perspective: wet start-up clutch pack like a motorcycle, then individual clutches on each of the 4 planetary gear sets for "double de-clutching":

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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      04-23-2017, 01:18 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Who's on first View Post
I may get shot for this, but good riddance to the DCT.

So disappointed in mine. Clunky, not the smoothest nor the fastest. What's the point?

I really miss my 6MT M4, but those days are gone for me personally (injury).

If they cannot make the DCT equal or better then It's competitors ... time to find something they can.
Let's get something clear...clunkiness, slower than the ZF or a transmission not better than a transmission has nothing to do with DCT. It has more to do with BMWs engineering or lack there of. case and point. Porsche's PDK. Flawless
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      04-23-2017, 01:45 AM   #47
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And just when you thought it can't get any worse...

Next M3/M4.... A hybrid car that can drive itself and perhaps drive around the track for you.
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      04-23-2017, 01:51 AM   #48
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Having had ZF8 in M135i and now M DCT in F80, I will say that if auto mode is your thing, then the ZF has the edge for sure, creep function and also smoother auto shifts.

However, I always drive in paddles, even in town, and the M DCT is much quicker, much more involved (in that it's less smooth more purposeful) and suits spirited driving better.

You DCT haters on here, it's only America that feels so strongly about 6MT, over in Europe I'd estimate that 90% of M3/4 are DCT, we love it. Manual gearbox M cars can sit unsold for months on end.
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      04-23-2017, 03:38 AM   #49
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Guys,

I had an E92 6speed M I was tired changing gears it took me two years to sell it,
now I drive an F80 DCT Perfect and no problems at all.

Lambros
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      04-23-2017, 03:54 AM   #50
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"Another reason is power. Manual transmissions and dual-clutch autos have difficulty handling extremely torquey engines which, with turbochargers taking over, are becoming more and more common"

Really? so the writer is claiming the automatic transmission is better than manual to handle high power and torque? I always thought it is the manual transmission can handle stress better ?
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      04-23-2017, 04:27 AM   #51
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I really like DCTs but not traditional autos so it was was with a fairly low expectation that I test drove a Giulia QF with the 8 speed ZF...to be honest you could barely tell the difference between the 2 except that the ZF was smoother in both auto and paddle mode. The DCT feels a bit harsher and has a subjectively slightly quicker shift but overall I wouldn't be unhappy with the ZF.
The Giulia is indeed a great drive....better than the M4 in a lot of ways except the interior, the Commodore 64 iDrive interface and the price.
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      04-23-2017, 05:59 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheIceStormOf06 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Who's on first View Post
I may get shot for this, but good riddance to the DCT.

So disappointed in mine. Clunky, not the smoothest nor the fastest. What's the point?

I really miss my 6MT M4, but those days are gone for me personally (injury).

If they cannot make the DCT equal or better then It's competitors ... time to find something they can.
Let's get something clear...clunkiness, slower than the ZF or a transmission not better than a transmission has nothing to do with DCT. It has more to do with BMWs engineering or lack there of. case and point. Porsche's PDK. Flawless
Please read my last two lines.

I agree.
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      04-23-2017, 06:17 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
I love the M-DCT, and think it's perfect for the M4 (both control, feel, and speed, and I only drive it manually), but I understand people who'd like a smoother transmission.

This has been AMG's argument for the MCT: way smoother, way more capable, and in the latest iteration, just as fast as a DCT with a new 9 speed coming out.

It's an interesting case from a dork perspective: wet start-up clutch pack like a motorcycle, then individual clutches on each of the 4 planetary gear sets for "double de-clutching":

One drawback of planetary transmissions is that they have a lot of high speed rotating mass, which hurts engine response and slows acceleration. I guess part of this can be offset with a lighter engine flywheel.
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      04-23-2017, 06:25 AM   #54
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This is going to be the longest Bimmerpost thread ever!
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      04-23-2017, 06:28 AM   #55
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FWIW, I gave the DCT a try on my test drive. It was impressive for sure. If I recall correctly, I was blurting things like "wow" and "oh my God" on my test drive. Repeatedly.

So when I sent my CA my build and he saw a 6MT he called me and thought it was a "mistake".

Silly CA.
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      04-23-2017, 06:41 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JsL View Post
Which car company does DCT implementation better? Not trying to be a smart a**, just curious.
Porsche.

The "narrative" about not being able to handle the power is just that...BMW's narrative. Of course you can design a DCT type transmission properly that will handle massive torque...Porsche has long ago done that, and hammering it through AWD now up to 580hp and 553 ft-lbs before the owners start modifying them, lol.

Road and Track tested that supposition by doing a 50 year celebration of Porsche in 2014 with a 911 Turbo S with PDK by doing 50 launch control starts *in a row*; they lost count, actually did 61. No issues, no overheating, no limp mode, and all runs within a few tenths of each other...snapping off 0-60mph times in the mid-2s in the process.

Quote:
"There is no limit."

That's what Porsche chief propeller-head Wolfgang Hatz said when someone asked him how many violent, Bugatti-quick launches the 911 Turbo S can perform before grenading itself.

"You have to have very intelligent cooling for the clutches," explained Hatz, "and choose the right material." The 911's clutches are bathed in oil, which is cooled, as are all the car's powertrain fluids. Hatz added that those Porsche-designed and ZF-built clutches are considered lifetime parts, good for well over 100,000 miles.
To any competent engineer, Wolfgang Hartz's comment is of course a "duh" response. He's simply stating the obvious and of course knows that.

BMW has never even designed *any* DCT type transmission with an objective like Porsche's. Beancounters run the show at BMW and would never allow them to actually design it as in the TurboS above, M-car or not. Hence the propaganda mission is started since the goal is financialization, and consolidating the entire product high end line behind the same torque converter automatic transmission is the goal. Leave it to the high-dollar paid
spindoctors in the BMW marketing group to figure out "technical reasons" to make it sound legit and watch the masses buy the spin.
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      04-23-2017, 07:01 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
BMW has never even designed *any* DCT type transmission with an objective like Porsche's. Beancounters run the show at BMW and would never allow them to actually design it as in the TurboS above, M-car or not.
"BMW has never even designed *any* DCT type transmission" because they buy them off the shelf from Getrag.
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      04-23-2017, 07:08 AM   #58
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Pretty sad to see the potential of the new gen ///M3/4 not having manual transmission. And DCT going away too at some point....#savethemanual

Also first time reading what the M folks think of the max output the MT can handle and their perception of the American MT.
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      04-23-2017, 07:22 AM   #59
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I guess the Bugatti Veron is low on torque, because it uses a DCT

That being said, the new Chiron now uses a planetary auto.
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      04-23-2017, 07:55 AM   #60
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Which transmission is planned for the F90 M5 with the S63B44T4?
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      04-23-2017, 08:52 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I guess the Bugatti Veron is low on torque, because it uses a DCT

That being said, the new Chiron now uses a planetary auto.
Didn't know that about the Chiron - figured it just carried the same one over from the Veyron. As I'm sure you know, the DCT used for the Veyron was specially designed for the application and cost prohibitive for a non-super-car. I know you were just being facetious though.

It seems to me that the real issue is scalability. As torque goes up, the planetary box scales better. The DCT and manual seem to require incrementally heavier, more costly components and materials at steeper rate than the planetary transmission does. Crossing over the 600ft-lb threshold seems to be the point where this really starts to show. As engine torque outputs climb higher and higher, especially now with hybrid assist becoming more and more common, it is easy to see we are coming to the end of the line for the DCT and manual transmissions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drexplode View Post
Which transmission is planned for the F90 M5 with the S63B44T4?
It will almost surely be the ZF8.

I don't have any problem with BMW M switching from DCT to planetary transmissions as long as they maintain lighting quick, neck snapppng shifts. Audi is moving away from DCTs as well and Mercedes only uses them in the AMG GT and in their transverse platform.
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      04-23-2017, 09:13 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speed2th View Post
"Another reason is power. Manual transmissions and dual-clutch autos have difficulty handling extremely torquey engines which, with turbochargers taking over, are becoming more and more common"

Really? so the writer is claiming the automatic transmission is better than manual to handle high power and torque? I always thought it is the manual transmission can handle stress better ?
Yeah, this point is bs. Supercars are all dct. You're telling me they all have low torque numbers? And my 335i has a 1000hp clutch. Not much different feeling than stock. Z06 has them, zl1, etc. Same argument. This point is bull. Does BMW plan over 1000hp motors?
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      04-23-2017, 09:51 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Yeah, this point is bs. Supercars are all dct. You're telling me they all have low torque numbers? And my 335i has a 1000hp clutch. Not much different feeling than stock. Z06 has them, zl1, etc. Same argument. This point is bull. Does BMW plan over 1000hp motors?
That's not what the article said. For clarity it should have been written like this.

As for dual-clutch transmissions, Quintus said, "The advantages they once offered over an automatic, such as their lighter weight and superior shift speed, were no longer apparent".

Audi has also determined that dual-clutch transmissions canít reliability handle high-torque loads and is reverting to automatic transmissions for its own high-performance cars.
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      04-23-2017, 09:58 AM   #64
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And the march against manuals continues.
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      04-23-2017, 10:06 AM   #65
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Self driving cars! You guys need to go "Back to the Future". I'm willing to bet that we will never see anything more than a concept vehicle made in our lifetimes, non-the less a production line.
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      04-23-2017, 10:20 AM   #66
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They have self driving i3 taxis in California already.
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