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      01-16-2019, 03:49 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MGM135is View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Honestly I have a hard time wrapping my head around people on a BMW forum speaking poorly about Toyota using parts supplied from BMW.
Actually, I’d like it better if it were a badged BMW. What I’m disappointed in is that I guess I was expecting Toyota to do something unique with the underpinnings and they essentially did nothing....that’s what I’m irritated by. It’s like they couldn’t be bothered and the want to charge you $50k for it. If it were BMW, I’d consider paying $60k as weird as that seems.
I don't know man, see where you're going, but think it's basically about the badge with that comment.

Toyota doesn't have the brand prestige to sell a call at $56K; this is true. However, the Supra was always a pricey sports car in comparison to say, a Nissan Z.

The Z4 is a more mature expression of the platform, while the Supra is, what it has always been, a car for more wealthy tuners.

I wouldn't plan to tune either, maybe, but I will likely get one or the other as my 3rd car.
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      01-16-2019, 03:59 PM   #222
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I made a point earlier, but now see that the thread I started was closed.

Since this car is basically a rebadged Bimmer, I think it should have its own area on this forum right next to the G29 area in which is shares the platform.

I know there is some BMW enthusiast pushback, but seeing how this car has turned out, Toyota hasn't really engineered anything in the car of significance. Hell, they couldn't even bother to do the interior or add their infotainment system or design.

For all intents and purposes, I don't even see how you could have this car serviced at a Toyota dealership. I would totally take a Supra to United BMW here in Atlanta and call it a day.

As much as I've hated Toyota over the years, I give them credit for even swallowing their pride and releasing this car. I think they basically reasoned that there was nothing they could improve upon after receiving the platform from BMW.

Always good to have great options.
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      01-16-2019, 04:28 PM   #223
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All this lamenting about too much BMW in a Toyota... wait until we see the rebadged Prius with a Roundel.
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      01-16-2019, 04:41 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Here's my take.

I'm entirely fine with the extensive parts bin sharing, especially if it's more BMW than Toyota.

Labor and parts should be cheaper with the Supra compared to the Z4 for obvious reasons.

Yes, the Supra uses a detuned B58 vs the Z4, but we all know how easy it is to get power out of the turbo BMWs. The B58 in Supra is the same as the MPPK B58 used in the M240. That car puts down ~335whp/370wtq in stock form or around 390hp and 430tq at the flywheel. The Supra weighs about 150lbs less than a M240 8AT. An M240 8AT runs 12.5-12.7@109-111mph stock in the 1/4 mile. With a basic tune, the M240s are running low low 12s. With less weight, the Supra should be a 12.3-12.5@111-113mph car in stock form. That puts it in the acceleration realm of the Mustang GT350. This Supra is monumentally faster in stock form than the previous gen.

The power of the Supra and the power delivery will make for an extremely fun car on the street and track. It's what I love about my M235. It has plenty of power and you can use it without feeling like the car is trying to kill you. The power delivery (stock tune) is linear right up to the fuel cut. The B58 even more so. Thus, it's makes exploring limits exciting and rewarding and something you can do daily if you're a decent driver. The Supra should obviously be an even better handler.

The pricing is spot on for what you get. I'm honestly surprised it's in the low to mid 50s.

Styling wise, I like the overall shape and form. They were going for the Toyota GT2000 look which they did quite nicely. What I don't like is all the tacked on aero work. It's unnecessary. Same goes for tail end. It's too much. They should have made the rear and nose more organic looking. Right now the car is dialed up to 11 and trying a bit too hard. Lots of cars these days have this issue. Dialed down to the 9 would be perfect and timeless for the Supra. All it would take is a better choice of wheel and perhaps a very mild drop.

I'm definitely considering this car assuming it doesn't offend me once I see it in person. White for me and I'd probably yank a few of the aero bits.
Problem is coming form a mkiv owner.

This car has no connection to its heritage whats so ever other then they are both I6s. They absolute have no understanding of what the supra was what it ment to its owners and why, or even Toyota fan base in general and what they wanted and why.

Which is perplexing as hell given the ft1 was the perfect modern interpretation of the Supra. Id much prefer a real Toyora build on the RCF platform and using that 460hp v8 then this abomination.

Sad thing is it might actually be a good car, but its just the wrong name. Call it a FRS 86 Celica whatever and it be ok. But to whore out your legendary halo car to a rival, that's kin to BMW making a M3/4 with Kia.

Hilarious thing is mkiv owners and previous owners are in life positions now that a 60k to 100k proper Supra would be a sure buy. With in the next 5 years ill be Lexus LC or new M4 for me. A 80k Supra(ft1) would have been a must buy.
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      01-16-2019, 05:21 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nextbooost View Post
Problem is coming form a mkiv owner.

Hilarious thing is mkiv owners and previous owners are in life positions now that a 60k to 100k proper Supra would be a sure buy. With in the next 5 years ill be Lexus LC or new M4 for me. A 80k Supra(ft1) would have been a must buy.
This is, unfortunately, exactly why neither BMW or Toyota are going to spend the engineering money it would have cost to make the car that the diehard fans would have really really wanted in their heart of hearts.

If that small, small market would be willing to buy products they have already in their lineup, at a higher price point, why bother spending all that money to just cannibalize sales of those existing products?

I'm not saying it's something I agree with ... it would have been cool to have seen a "proper Supra" but alas, the beancounters would have never allowed it. In this market where everyone wants a SUV, it's a small miracle that we're even getting this.

Just curious, if at some point they drop a S58 engine in this would it be more appealing to you?
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      01-16-2019, 05:26 PM   #226
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The worst thing is some dickhead will put an M badge on it.
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      01-16-2019, 05:48 PM   #227
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What I dont get is if Toyota cant afford to build a proper Supra then how does everyone else do it? Isn't Toyota one of if not the biggest Auto manufacture in the world? I know GM & VW go back and fourth at #1 etc but still.. How did they afford to build the LFA? Could you imagine the much smaller Nissan outsourcing their GTR motor? They purposely designed a hand built engine for it vs just souping up the VQ that makes 350HP from 3.7 liters and revs 7500 in stock trim. They didnt want their halo car using the same or a variant of the same engine a Maxima / Pathfinder etc uses.. So Nissan didnt even take a chance with another Nissan engine let alone another brand for the whole car...
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      01-16-2019, 06:25 PM   #228
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Not that they can't, they just didn't want to, not economically smart on their part. The LFA was an engineering/design challenge.
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      01-16-2019, 06:30 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QUiKSR20 View Post
What I dont get is if Toyota cant afford to build a proper Supra then how does everyone else do it? Isn't Toyota one of if not the biggest Auto manufacture in the world? I know GM & VW go back and fourth at #1 etc but still.. How did they afford to build the LFA? Could you imagine the much smaller Nissan outsourcing their GTR motor? They purposely designed a hand built engine for it vs just souping up the VQ that makes 350HP from 3.7 liters and revs 7500 in stock trim. They didnt want their halo car using the same or a variant of the same engine a Maxima / Pathfinder etc uses.. So Nissan didnt even take a chance with another Nissan engine let alone another brand for the whole car...
Well, for one, Nissan has a bonified racing heritage, as does BMW, and most Marqs. VW has both Audi Sport and Porsche. Toyota doesn't really participate in major motorsports (NASCAR does not count!)

Toyota has been out of the bespoke racing engine game for some time. Those that remain in the company are busy over at Lexus trying to turn that flaccid mess into something that people may actually enjoy driving.

I think a friendly version of corporate espionage is afoot here. Toyota has torn down every bit of that Z4, parts and engine soup to nuts. I predict in the next couple of years, you'll see something similar in Lexus as far as sportiness.

I understand your point on the whoring out of the legendary halo car, but I give credit for swallowing ones pride, admitting that you can't do it anymore, and seeking out help and education from a master. Going to BMW, the company they've mimicked for 20 years now, must have been humbling, but the long term benefits will reap rewards. Most true BMW guys won't buy this car, but we aren't the market either. Young, aspiring Toyota owners are the target, so if they can steal some sales from the BMW 2 or 3 series, mission would be accomplished.

The other issue is drivers like me; I'm now electric and am wavering on ever going back full time. (own an older 911 for Saturdays and track days). However, driving the Supra on the weekends and when the kids aren't a factor would be very fun.
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      01-16-2019, 07:22 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolltidef32 View Post
Well, for one, Nissan has a bonified racing heritage, as does BMW, and most Marqs. VW has both Audi Sport and Porsche. Toyota doesn't really participate in major motorsports (NASCAR does not count!)

Toyota has been out of the bespoke racing engine game for some time. Those that remain in the company are busy over at Lexus trying to turn that flaccid mess into something that people may actually enjoy driving.
Wat.

Gazoo Racing is Toyota's brand.

The won Le Man's last year, and did fantastic in the WRC with a freaking boosted Yaris.
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      01-16-2019, 07:28 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormhammer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolltidef32 View Post
Well, for one, Nissan has a bonified racing heritage, as does BMW, and most Marqs. VW has both Audi Sport and Porsche. Toyota doesn't really participate in major motorsports (NASCAR does not count!)

Toyota has been out of the bespoke racing engine game for some time. Those that remain in the company are busy over at Lexus trying to turn that flaccid mess into something that people may actually enjoy driving.
Wat.

Gazoo Racing is Toyota's brand.

The won Le Man's last year, and did fantastic in the WRC with a freaking boosted Yaris.
Gazoo? Guess I'm out of the loop. WEC does have a Toyota in one of the classes. Thought it was Toyota Hybrid.

At any rate, the racing heritage isn't strong like say, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, even Mitsubishi in rally.
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      01-16-2019, 09:02 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nextbooost View Post
Hilarious thing is mkiv owners and previous owners are in life positions now that a 60k to 100k proper Supra would be a sure buy. With in the next 5 years ill be Lexus LC or new M4 for me. A 80k Supra(ft1) would have been a must buy.
Not only do I support a more "modest" Supra that is priced significantly lower than an M2, rather than a Supra priced in M4 territory... But I think it's the smarter move for something badged as a Toyota. I also argue this new one is priced more similarly to the last generation than a $80k Supra would be.

EDIT: I need to retract my last point regarding relative pricing. While a 1995 Supra $38k Base Liftback is $49k in today's money; the $49k Turbo Liftback works out to $80k in today's money. Interesting.
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      01-16-2019, 09:09 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QUiKSR20 View Post
What I dont get is if Toyota cant afford to build a proper Supra then how does everyone else do it? Isn't Toyota one of if not the biggest Auto manufacture in the world? I know GM & VW go back and fourth at #1 etc but still.. How did they afford to build the LFA? Could you imagine the much smaller Nissan outsourcing their GTR motor? They purposely designed a hand built engine for it vs just souping up the VQ that makes 350HP from 3.7 liters and revs 7500 in stock trim. They didnt want their halo car using the same or a variant of the same engine a Maxima / Pathfinder etc uses.. So Nissan didnt even take a chance with another Nissan engine let alone another brand for the whole car...
Let's be fair here, if the claim is Toyota cannot alone afford to build the Supra, then you can say the same that BMW cannot alone afford to build the Z4. It goes both ways and it looks like this joint venture was Toyota provided the investment money and BMW did the work.

I do agree though that Toyota has committed blasphemy in commissioning BMW to build a car as iconic as the Supra on their behalf. It's sacrilegious, sinful, and if I was a Toyota enthusiast and fanatic, I would be very disappointed at this BMW Supra.
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      01-16-2019, 09:11 PM   #234
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I'm mixed on the Supra hyped for years similar to the NSX.

Here is a good article detailing the differences between the z4, 3 series and the Supra.

https://jalopnik.com/what-we-found-w...sup-1831800550
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      01-16-2019, 09:31 PM   #235
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Well, they must have done something to please some people that aren't folks that hang out on car forums all day. Appears that the entire years allotment is all but sold out already.
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      01-16-2019, 11:05 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolltidef32 View Post
At any rate, the racing heritage isn't strong like say, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, even Mitsubishi in rally.
Might want to read up on your history a little more. Toyota (4) has as many WRC constructors championships as Subaru (3) and Mitsubishi (1) combined.

If you're looking at driver's championships then Toyota has 4 compared to Subaru's 3 and Mitsubishi's 4. 2 of Subaru's came after Toyota's departure from the series.

However you choose to look at it, Toyota has been the most successful Japanese manufacturer in WRC.

Nissan has seen success in touring car and GT racing but has very rarely strayed from that realm.

Honda's racing heritage, aside from motorcycles, lies largely in open wheel (F1, Indy) racing.

Toyota is one of the few manufacturers that has dared to throw their hat in the ring across a large number of racing formats. They've certainly taken a step back from the well know racing series over the last decade but making silly claims regarding their lack of racing heitage and claiming "NASCAR doesn't count" just makes you sound ignorant. They were pretty dominant across a large portion of the racing world in the 80s and 90s.
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      01-16-2019, 11:30 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pukicabuki View Post
Might want to read up on your history a little more. Toyota (4) has as many WRC constructors championships as Subaru (3) and Mitsubishi (1) combined.

If you're looking at driver's championships then Toyota has 4 compared to Subaru's 3 and Mitsubishi's 4. 2 of Subaru's came after Toyota's departure from the series.

However you choose to look at it, Toyota has been the most successful Japanese manufacturer in WRC.

Nissan has seen success in touring car and GT racing but has very rarely strayed from that realm.

Honda's racing heritage, aside from motorcycles, lies largely in open wheel (F1, Indy) racing.

Toyota is one of the few manufacturers that has dared to throw their hat in the ring across a large number of racing formats. They've certainly taken a step back from the well know racing series over the last decade but making silly claims regarding their lack of racing heitage and claiming "NASCAR doesn't count" just makes you sound ignorant. They were pretty dominant across a large portion of the racing world in the 80s and 90s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_in_motorsport

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota...rmula_One_team)

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      01-17-2019, 12:10 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I think it's fine for them to share stuff with BMW and create a car... Engine, chassis, interior etc. but this is 100% BMW. There is no uniqueness for this car as a Toyota. Toyota basically just slapped a body kit on the Z4, a hard top and a bunch of emblems and call this a Supra. It's a massive failure for Toyota as a car company.

The 86 cars that were created as a joint venture is a much better example of how a car is created by two companies working together. It has a chassis made and tuned by Toyota and Subaru and a Subaru flat 4 with Toyota DI technology. It utilizes the expertise of both companies to create something truly unique and an example of both company's engineering.

Will this be a fun car? Probably, but from a Toyota sports car standpoint, its a very sad day.
You forgot that Toyota added much in the way of fake air vent technology.
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      01-17-2019, 05:46 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nextbooost View Post
Hilarious thing is mkiv owners and previous owners are in life positions now that a 60k to 100k proper Supra would be a sure buy. With in the next 5 years ill be Lexus LC or new M4 for me. A 80k Supra(ft1) would have been a must buy.
Not only do I support a more "modest" Supra that is priced significantly lower than an M2, rather than a Supra priced in M4 territory... But I think it's the smarter move for something badged as a Toyota. I also argue this new one is priced more similarly to the last generation than a $80k Supra would be.

EDIT: I need to retract my last point regarding relative pricing. While a 1995 Supra $38k Base Liftback is $49k in today's money; the $49k Turbo Liftback works out to $80k in today's money. Interesting.
Well, your point is still a good one vs market. The sports car market is tiny compared to 20 years ago also.

I guess people were expecting the new Supra to me more of a Skyline GTR. Even Nissan admits that Godzilla is a hard car to keep developing for the small number sold globally.

I'm not sure what else the Supra could have been. A more Toyota/Lexus interior? A more Lexus feel to the ride? Even though they've proven that outside of the LFA have struggled to design a sporty suspension. The turbo has finally been embraced, and then there is the issue of engine design.

Developing an engine costs billions. In the case of a bespoke engine for a Supra, those billions couldn't be recovered since it wouldn't go into other vehicles across the family lines. To their defense, Toyota is working on electric motors and battery tech in R&D, so an engine for a sports car was likely far from their minds, thus this mashup.

I don't know, does seem weird that Toyota hardly touched the car under the hood. Guess they know that their fans really want a BMW.
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      01-17-2019, 07:42 AM   #240
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The fact this is a BMW opens the door to countless after market tuning options. Toyota should partner with an aftermarket flash tuning organization to produce a factory sanctioned TRD app that flashes the engine using a mobile app through ODB. A cheap flash tune for instant horsepower gain that doesn't void warranty would be a huge hit with the tuner community and give this car a massive advantage over the competition. Allow the end user to customize the car to their liking by coding on or off any option they like, etc.
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      01-17-2019, 08:25 AM   #241
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I don’t have a problem with the looks or the specs. I like it. I do have a problem with the gall and sheer nerve Toyota has to call this car a Supra and not offer it in manual. Don’t care if they’re talking about possibly adding it in the future. Should NEVER have been engineered without a manual in mind from the outset. This is such an epic fail!
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      01-17-2019, 08:26 AM   #242
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The Supra Dupra is hideous! And why didn't Toyota develope the engine for it? And why do I need it? It offers very little beyond what I already have.

What I do need is a nice '14 or '15 Audi R8 V8!
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