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      08-06-2019, 04:20 PM   #947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by super51fan View Post
Youre welcome to grow up a pair and @ me, it won't hurt my feelings ...
I'm still laughing.

Both comparos prefer the Cayman because of its 'completeness'. The Top Gear reviewer was apparently afraid that he'd spin the mid-engine chassis. (Whaaaa?) Motor Trend hasn't been a serious, objective mag in at least a decade -- and it did zero actual testing of both cars (that piece is basically pre-production fluff) ...

... and Top Gear? The author did his own accel runs. Anecdotally. No controlled variables.

Still laughing. Call me biased (see my sig), but also call me a realist.

Finally: track times are worthless unless the same driver is driving the same car on the same day, back to back. See Randy Pobst's track oeuvre for a reference.
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      08-06-2019, 04:28 PM   #948
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Anyone expecting Toyota to build and develop a $80-90K sportscar solo in today's economic climate is smoking rocks.

And this whole Supra vs GT-R thing isn't even historically accurate. The MkIV was an anomaly. Early 90's Japan and its over the top product in general was an anomaly.

People are acting like this car is a failure and its really not. Its still a performer and will be pretty rare on the street. The C8, which is probably underpriced, really rained on its parade along with people just not liking the BMW partnership. Another sportscar on the road isn't a bad thing to me.

Last edited by See5; 08-06-2019 at 04:36 PM..
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      08-06-2019, 04:50 PM   #949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
The Supra and GTR are supposed to be rivals..
It's more of a Nissan Z and Mazda RX competitor. Even in the 90s, cars like the NSX and Skyline GT-R were slightly more expensive when compared to the A80 Supra.

In other news.





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      08-06-2019, 05:09 PM   #950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by See5 View Post
People are acting like this car is a failure and its really not. Its still a performer and will be pretty rare on the street.
Not for long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn
... unless you're dead set on a Launch Edition one.

Production of LEs is now finished. Regular Supras are being made at a pretty rapid pace. Approximately 2500 (including LEs) have been already assembled just for the US market alone. This means within a couple of months every Toyota dealer will have several in stock, available for pickup on the spot. Production volumes do not appear to be restricted, so do not expect any exclusivity or limited availability for a non-LE car. Dealers will not be able to maintain ADM for long. Wait it out.
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      08-06-2019, 05:26 PM   #951
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According to A70TTR and other, Toyota is looking to sell around 4,000 units this year. The goal for next year is 12,000 units.

Globally, they are looking to make 25,000 units a year.

Compare to the C7 just in the US:

2014- 34,839
2015- 33,329
2016- 29,995
2017- 25,079
2018- 18,789
2019- 9,731 (YTD)

Last edited by supra93; 08-06-2019 at 05:32 PM..
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      08-06-2019, 05:35 PM   #952
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2020 Toyota Supra tuned to 420 horsepower already by U.K. company

Quote:
The BMW inline-six appears to respond well to a simple ECU tune

The 2020 Toyota Supra has only been on dealer lots for a couple weeks, but a U.K tuner company is already extracting more horsepower from the 3.0-liter turbocharged inline-six engine. Pistonheads is reporting that Litchfield managed to return 420 horsepower via an ECU remap. No hardware changes were involved with the tune ó this is simply computer work at this point.

As a reference, Toyota says the Supra makes 335 horsepower from the factory ó it's fast, and we got even more confirmation of that the other day with the first official lap time being set. If the car truly is making that amount of power stock, then this base tune adds an impressive 85 horsepower. Previous dyno runs of stock Supras have returned conflicting data, but the car may have more power than Toyota is letting on. Due to the variation in dynamometers, climate and cars used, comparing all these cars to each other just isnít possible.

What is neat to see is that Litchfield isnít anywhere close to being done yet. The report goes on to say that Litchfield is working to optimize a tune with bolt-on modifications. Litchfield is eliminating the factory particulate filter (not installed on U.S. spec cars) and then giving folks the choice between a Milltek or Akrapovic exhaust. These light-touch changes should net another 20-30 horsepower, according to Litchfield.

A similar tune for other BMW vehicles Litchfield has worked on only costs £600, which translates to about $730. The tune and an exhaust would likely be around $1,500 total, so you could have a 450 horsepower Supra for not a whole lot of money. Of course, Litchfield being a U.K. company, folks in the U.S. wonít be able to take advantage of this tune right away. Litchfield isnít even ready to sell to European customers yet. This information does serve as a solid baseline for what to expect when American tuners start to unlock more of that BMW power. Weíll be watching closely for that to occur in the near future.
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/08/05/...ne-litchfield/

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      08-06-2019, 06:14 PM   #953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox View Post
It seems some of you were expecting a $40k car that was going to keep up with Ferrari's or something.
Most Supra fans were expecting(or wanting) a car actually built by Toyota. Something in the $75-$85k range would have been ideal. Nissan did it in 2008, Toyota has no excuse with the amount of cash they have on hand. In 2008 Nissan provided a $69k car that blew the doors off 911 Turbo, Ferrari, Lambo, etc. Instead we got a hairdresser's BMW with a fixed roof and Supra badge.
i tend to agree; the GTR was also a shock as no one expected what Nissan did... it also came out during a worldwide economic crisis and atill did well... Toyota basically was lazy as funk and even with its cash hoards wouldnt create something outstanding... this doesnt surprise from the guys that still make 4runners and Tacomas with drum brakes, 5 spd trannys and and a 10 year old NA V6 on a false pretense of reliability... imho Toyota is the worst car company in existance.
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      08-06-2019, 06:28 PM   #954
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supra93 View Post
According to A70TTR and other, Toyota is looking to sell around 4,000 units this year. The goal for next year is 12,000 units.

Globally, they are looking to make 25,000 units a year.

Compare to the C7 just in the US:

2014- 34,839
2015- 33,329
2016- 29,995
2017- 25,079
2018- 18,789
2019- 9,731 (YTD)
Holy hell. I'd be shocked if they break 10k globally in the first full year and 6k in any year after that.

I mean, I'm sure BMW wanted to sell 25k i8's annually, but we all know how that went.
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      08-06-2019, 06:44 PM   #955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duder13 View Post
Well, at $50K-$60K, it looks like people are saying "Sorry, I'm buying a C8 at that price point." In fact, I'd probably still buy a regular Cayman over the current Supra.

I think the Supra would be more compelling if it was $85k, designed in house, and competed with the 911s and GTRs at a higher price point. Less Z4, more LFA.
I agree.

FT1 body, S58 motor, ceramics, >3200 lbs, functional vents, a from scratch toyota interior. i'd pay 85k and wouldn't look twice at a 4 cylinder cayman.
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      08-06-2019, 06:58 PM   #956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Holy hell. I'd be shocked if they break 10k globally in the first full year and 6k in any year after that.

I mean, I'm sure BMW wanted to sell 25k i8's annually, but we all know how that went.
At that rate they will have discounts on them sooner rather than later. There are already more 2020 Supraís listed on Autotrader than 2020 M2ís.
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      08-06-2019, 07:36 PM   #957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
i tend to agree; the GTR was also a shock as no one expected what Nissan did... it also came out during a worldwide economic crisis and atill did well... Toyota basically was lazy as funk and even with its cash hoards wouldnt create something outstanding... this doesnt surprise from the guys that still make 4runners and Tacomas with drum brakes, 5 spd trannys and and a 10 year old NA V6 on a false pretense of reliability... imho Toyota is the worst car company in existance.
Boring and quotidian. Yep.
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      08-06-2019, 07:40 PM   #958
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      08-06-2019, 08:30 PM   #959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Holy hell. I'd be shocked if they break 10k globally in the first full year and 6k in any year after that.

I mean, I'm sure BMW wanted to sell 25k i8's annually, but we all know how that went.
At that rate they will have discounts on them sooner rather than later. There are already more 2020 Supra’s listed on Autotrader than 2020 M2’s.
Kind of like Mk4s? I know there's a post coital love for the previous sales flop, but no Supra sold well. The Mk3 was the only one that seemed to actually sell beyond the second or third year.
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      08-06-2019, 10:52 PM   #960
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^The A40 and A60 weren't too bad. Not true, A70's sales started tanking pretty bad as with most niche products. Toyota never intended for the A80 to be a huge seller, but the rising Yen made it even worst.



http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales.../toyota-supra/
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      08-06-2019, 11:48 PM   #961
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Wow, didn't realize the A70 had that short of a run of success. I thought it had seen a little resurgence towards the end. Guess I was wrong.

Still would be shocked to see this one ever hit 25k global sales.
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      08-07-2019, 12:45 AM   #962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by See5 View Post
Anyone expecting Toyota to build and develop a $80-90K sportscar solo in today's economic climate is smoking rocks.

And this whole Supra vs GT-R thing isn't even historically accurate. The MkIV was an anomaly. Early 90's Japan and its over the top product in general was an anomaly.

People are acting like this car is a failure and its really not. Its still a performer and will be pretty rare on the street. The C8, which is probably underpriced, really rained on its parade along with people just not liking the BMW partnership. Another sportscar on the road isn't a bad thing to me.
Why not? Toyota is still the largest automaker in the world. They could have easily developed their own sportscar without BMW's help.
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      08-07-2019, 07:26 AM   #963
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Originally Posted by MisterF80M3 View Post
Why not? Toyota is still the largest automaker in the world. They could have easily developed their own sportscar without BMW's help.
And they have already stated in multiple interviews, had they developed their own engine and platform, the car would have been north of $100k.

Sure, I realize there are quite a few here that can afford a $100k, or multiple used expensive cars, but Toyota is in the business of making money.

$50-55k is a lot more attainable on an upper-middle class salary than $100k+
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      08-07-2019, 07:55 AM   #964
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Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox View Post
And they have already stated in multiple interviews, had they developed their own engine and platform, the car would have been north of $100k.

Sure, I realize there are quite a few here that can afford a $100k, or multiple used expensive cars, but Toyota is in the business of making money.

$50-55k is a lot more attainable on an upper-middle class salary than $100k+
Yet GM is able to do a C8 for $60k. Toyota is loaded with asshats then
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      08-07-2019, 09:18 AM   #965
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Yet GM is able to do a C8 for $60k. Toyota is loaded with asshats then
To be fair, the LT2 in the new 'Vette isn't using an entirely new engine. It's just an evolution of the LT1.

For example, look how much the Mercury Marine SB4 (yes, it was designed as an automotive engine) costs. It's an LS7 with DOHC heads and 8k redline. They built it on an existing block architecture, but developed new heads/cams/intake, etc.

That engine alone is $33k dollars with a 12-month warranty. Not a 5/60k like most powertrain warranties, nor the added expense of the emissions systems, certification with the Feds and on and on and on.
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      08-07-2019, 09:29 AM   #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterF80M3 View Post
Why not? Toyota is still the largest automaker in the world. They could have easily developed their own sportscar without BMW's help.
That's not how things work.

The program still needs to be profitable and sell in numbers to support that.

Here in the US, the Supra at $80K+ would run into the same exact problem they had last time, the Corvette and the 911. They kill off almost everything in their price range. You have to dance around the fringes. They wanted no parts of dumping $500 million into a niche car that wouldn't sell over 30K units in a cycle and lose money. BMW probably was thinking in a similar fashion.

At a time when profit margins are tightening and companies are having to dump billions into EV, sportscars make no sense especially not without platform sharing.

Last edited by See5; 08-07-2019 at 09:38 AM..
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      08-07-2019, 11:09 AM   #967
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Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox View Post
To be fair, the LT2 in the new 'Vette isn't using an entirely new engine. It's just an evolution of the LT1.

For example, look how much the Mercury Marine SB4 (yes, it was designed as an automotive engine) costs. It's an LS7 with DOHC heads and 8k redline. They built it on an existing block architecture, but developed new heads/cams/intake, etc.

That engine alone is $33k dollars with a 12-month warranty. Not a 5/60k like most powertrain warranties, nor the added expense of the emissions systems, certification with the Feds and on and on and on.
To be fair, Toyota jacked a BMW engine...
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      08-07-2019, 11:48 AM   #968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supra93 View Post
Considering the same engine in the M340i puts out 380hp, it's pretty normal for a tune to add 50hp.
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