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      01-17-2020, 05:55 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by alex2364 View Post
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
I'm going to suggest that the flat 6 manual will hold it's value better than the dyson.
So you’re saying I can buy the faster turbo 4 GTS for a heavy discount.
I mean if your looking mainly for a fast car, Tesla's are widely available.

The GTS4.0 is not about being fast. Its aimed squarely for the Porsche enthusiasts who prefers their NA Flat-Sixes to the current Flat-Four, as well as trying to bring in sales for the Cayman/Boxster since the new Flat-Fours haven't been received well and are possible reasons for the decline in sales.
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      01-17-2020, 07:21 PM   #46
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So you’re saying I can buy the faster turbo 4 GTS for a heavy discount.
Sure, and good for you if you want a turbo 4 banger with PDK over a car with heart and soul that will retain its value.
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      01-17-2020, 08:14 PM   #47
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Oh, they do. There are probably a dozen worldwide buyers who'd want an N/A SUV. The rest want torque and more torque. The Model Y will rule this market just like the Model 3 swept the floor with German sedans.
Not so sure, yes off roaders want torque but I'm not sure they are the types that are going to jump on the EV bandwagon. Time will tell I guess.
Wait, what off-roaders? No one driving a German SUV takes it off road. They're grocery getters.
My cayenne gets used for everything. I don't have a problem getting it dirty.

I lose my shit when I see these suvs without tow hitches.
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      01-19-2020, 08:09 AM   #48
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Check out promo vid. MT and flat six sounds great. Not sure how they can do that with particle filters required by EU unless the audio track was enhanced. Or it being NA maybe that helps.
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      01-19-2020, 08:41 AM   #49
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Check out promo vid. MT and flat six sounds great. Not sure how they can do that with particle filters required by EU unless the audio track was enhanced. Or it being NA maybe that helps.
Damn, I wish we had roads like that here.
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      01-19-2020, 02:06 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post

Check out promo vid. MT and flat six sounds great. Not sure how they can do that with particle filters required by EU unless the audio track was enhanced. Or it being NA maybe that helps.
Damn, I wish we had roads like that here.
Come south.
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      01-19-2020, 04:22 PM   #51
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Damn, I wish we had roads like that here.
We have roads like that in SoCal. Angeles Crest.
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      01-19-2020, 04:29 PM   #52
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We have roads like that in SoCal. Angeles Crest.
I know, I went to school in LA in 1982....I'm OLD OK. I was just saying to my wife I thought about driving Route 66 to LA when I was going to school then but it was cheaper to fly....I would like to do the drive though, my 993 would be kool but some old school Detroit hot rod might be better.....decisions....
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      01-23-2020, 05:03 PM   #53
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Not sure how they can do that with particle filters required by EU unless the audio track was enhanced. Or it being NA maybe that helps.
It's enhanced. Trust me on that.

(Other things in other posts):
As for Porsche reacting to the customer base: False. That's classic PR-style spin doctoring on Porsche's part. Porsche planned this from the get-go, from even before the 718 was introduced. It follows a pattern it's established with other models. The only break that this represents from those precedents is that Porsche is moving the GTS closer to full-on GT-level models.

As for Porsche doing this because of falling sales: Sales were already falling in the years before the 982. And 718 availability was severely curtailed in 2018 for a number of reasons that range from emissions-testing backlogs to manufacturing-plant transfer and retooling. People are simply buying less German-made cars. Simply buying less 2-seaters. Simply buying less mid-engine cars (C8 notwithstanding). Simply buying less 2-door cars. Worldwide. Research it. Engine choice has little to do with it ... besides: Porsche can't turn on a dime and shove any ol' engine into a car just because. Many forces are at play that take years to play out -- meaning years of planning ... Also-besides: The 4.0 GTS will be a limited-run model just like the GT4 and the Spyder, so sales volume really isn't what is motivating Porsche here. Think about that.

As for the 4.0 flat-6 being slower than the 2.5 T4: Yep. And about 300 pounds heavier, too. And manual only, which makes it even slower. Hey, but you sound better (to some)! I'd rather be faster, thanks ...

As for the lower-rung 718s becoming EVs: Not in this generation. Almost certainly in the next -- and, likely, with the flat-4 still in play.

As for 4-pot models losing resale value: Perhaps. Most of us 718 owners don't give a whit about that, anyway.

Sound ain't everything ... especially with particulate filters installed.
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      01-23-2020, 06:29 PM   #54
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I freely admit that I'd buy a Golf R with the flat four (and a manual.)
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      01-23-2020, 06:41 PM   #55
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I freely admit that I'd buy a Golf R with the flat four (and a manual.)
You mean inline four?
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      01-23-2020, 06:42 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
It's enhanced. Trust me on that.

(Other things in other posts):
As for Porsche reacting to the customer base: False. That's classic PR-style spin doctoring on Porsche's part. Porsche planned this from the get-go, from even before the 718 was introduced. It follows a pattern it's established with other models. The only break that this represents from those precedents is that Porsche is moving the GTS closer to full-on GT-level models.

As for Porsche doing this because of falling sales: Sales were already falling in the years before the 982. And 718 availability was severely curtailed in 2018 for a number of reasons that range from emissions-testing backlogs to manufacturing-plant transfer and retooling. People are simply buying less German-made cars. Simply buying less 2-seaters. Simply buying less mid-engine cars (C8 notwithstanding). Simply buying less 2-door cars. Worldwide. Research it. Engine choice has little to do with it ... besides: Porsche can't turn on a dime and shove any ol' engine into a car just because. Many forces are at play that take years to play out -- meaning years of planning ... Also-besides: The 4.0 GTS will be a limited-run model just like the GT4 and the Spyder, so sales volume really isn't what is motivating Porsche here. Think about that.

As for the 4.0 flat-6 being slower than the 2.5 T4: Yep. And about 300 pounds heavier, too. And manual only, which makes it even slower. Hey, but you sound better (to some)! I'd rather be faster, thanks ...

As for the lower-rung 718s becoming EVs: Not in this generation. Almost certainly in the next -- and, likely, with the flat-4 still in play.

As for 4-pot models losing resale value: Perhaps. Most of us 718 owners don't give a whit about that, anyway.

Sound ain't everything ... especially with particulate filters installed.
Yes I find it funny they switch to a slower flat six. I really like the 2.5t GTS. I almost traded my base 718 for one, just couldn’t make the numbers work. I will just get an APR tune instead once they offer APR+.
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      01-23-2020, 06:52 PM   #57
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I freely admit that I'd buy a Golf R with the flat four (and a manual.)
You mean inline four?
No, I mean the 718 motor. Now that the TT-S is going away, seems like the demand for the higher output EA888 is going away, so share the 718 boxers with the Golf R. It would differentiate it from the regular GTI and TCR version.

Plus it would sound different, something I really enjoyed about the first two R32s. This all assumes that you can run it sideways of course.

I'm one of the few that seems to find flat fours in VWs and Porsches perfectly nostalgic and awesome. Even if I also think the GT4 with the n/a six is perfect. Both can and should exist, and it would be especially cool to see a GT4 RS with the full boat 4.0L at some point.
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      01-23-2020, 07:10 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
No, I mean the 718 motor. Now that the TT-S is going away, seems like the demand for the higher output EA888 is going away, so share the 718 boxers with the Golf R. It would differentiate it from the regular GTI and TCR version.

Plus it would sound different, something I really enjoyed about the first two R32s. This all assumes that you can run it sideways of course.

I'm one of the few that seems to find flat fours in VWs and Porsches perfectly nostalgic and awesome. Even if I also think the GT4 with the n/a six is perfect. Both can and should exist, and it would be especially cool to see a GT4 RS with the full boat 4.0L at some point.
OIC. I Am not sure how they’d fit it, maybe at an angle? And you’re right, it does sound good especially in sport mode.
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      01-23-2020, 07:18 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
No, I mean the 718 motor. Now that the TT-S is going away, seems like the demand for the higher output EA888 is going away, so share the 718 boxers with the Golf R. It would differentiate it from the regular GTI and TCR version.

Plus it would sound different, something I really enjoyed about the first two R32s. This all assumes that you can run it sideways of course.

I'm one of the few that seems to find flat fours in VWs and Porsches perfectly nostalgic and awesome. Even if I also think the GT4 with the n/a six is perfect. Both can and should exist, and it would be especially cool to see a GT4 RS with the full boat 4.0L at some point.
OIC. I Am not sure how they’d fit it, maybe at an angle? And you’re right, it does sound good especially in sport mode.
The exhaust would obviously be a mess for the Golf, and not equal length. I suppose you could do it like the VR6 with a central setup but you'd lose some of the sound. The Haldex setup would actually probably be easier since the motor should be a good bit smaller width wise (when sideways) than the EA888.
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      01-24-2020, 02:30 AM   #60
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There's always the toyota 86 option. Flat 4 in that. And there are tons of aftermarket options with forced induction. I had one for about a year. Very fun car. The fit and finish inside is terrible compared to even the mk6 golf though.

i need to hear a 718 in person but if it sounds like a subaru motor... no thanks.
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      01-24-2020, 07:37 AM   #61
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Now if BMW would just follow suit with the M cars... and go back to hydraulic steering, and keep offering manual trans/rwd.

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Indeed, they are just modern station wagons without the stigma. Jeep Wranglers and Ford Raptors hardly ever go off road.
I be a similar percent of Wrangler owners go off road as M car owners go to the track.
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      01-24-2020, 07:46 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by alex2364 View Post
$10k more for a 6 cylinder that’s slower then the turbo 4 and won’t even offer PDK? No thanks.
How can you not want the manual.
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      01-24-2020, 07:47 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Now if BMW would just follow suit with the M cars... and go back to hydraulic steering, and keep offering manual trans/rwd.



I be a similar percent of Wrangler owners go off road as M car owners go to the track.
But they are still offering manual and RWD M cars.
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      01-24-2020, 07:52 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
Sound ain't everything ... especially with particulate filters installed.
a preference for natural aspiration is not just about sound

it's also about the immediacy of the experience...feeling connected to all the controls of the car including the throttle

turbos take away from connection...they create a barrier between the driver's input and the car's response...a lag

Porsche GT cars are aimed at maximizing the connection between the driver and the car

this is why GT cars have NA engines and why I for one will always prefer NA engines
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      01-24-2020, 09:22 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baege View Post
a preference for natural aspiration is not just about sound

it's also about the immediacy of the experience...feeling connected to all the controls of the car including the throttle

turbos take away from connection...they create a barrier between the driver's input and the car's response...a lag

Porsche GT cars are aimed at maximizing the connection between the driver and the car

this is why GT cars have NA engines and why I for one will always prefer NA engines
I find that's not really the case these days, "lag" is throttle mapping and auto-transmissions, not engines that develop full torque at 1500rpm flat to redline. While there's a microsecond of spool-up, driving these cars around in their sport/sport+ or whatever equivalent setting resets the mapping and you say "oh, wow, it's pretty responsive". The NA engines that you have to rev up to 5-6K to build significant torque are going to also "lag" at lower RPMs when trying to accelerate. You'll have to shift and build some RPMs. That's normal for most engines, save some monster torque-machines that use big displacement or again, FI, to provide more torque at lower RPM. I think you'd have more of a point if you were arguing about some massive-lag turbo that only starts to spool at 3K rpm, creating the frustrating driving situation where you either drive around at 4-5K all the time, or have to downshift to do anything. These are no longer the 930 days and turbo tech is pretty advanced now. I just don't see this as a valid argument anymore. The reason most cars at "laggy" IME is throttle mapping and transmissions, comparing to the ones that are not.
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      01-24-2020, 09:41 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by baege View Post
a preference for natural aspiration is not just about sound

it's also about the immediacy of the experience...feeling connected to all the controls of the car including the throttle

turbos take away from connection...they create a barrier between the driver's input and the car's response...a lag

Porsche GT cars are aimed at maximizing the connection between the driver and the car

this is why GT cars have NA engines and why I for one will always prefer NA engines
Axeschully hehe, some Porsche GT cars do have turbos in them. Not all, but street and race application models do have them. The lag can be tuned out but part of the reason the lag is there is for simplicity and fuel economy. On race applications, the turbo is almost always spooled. And there are other means to eliminate or significantly reduce the lag through anti lag or electric boost to tie throttle input demands/commands to get a turbo spooling before exhaust gasses can push it etc. getting a tune usually helps because the tuners don’t worry about the EPA so much.
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