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      07-06-2015, 09:09 PM   #111
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Well BMW I'm running out of excuses to stay with the brand. First you are cutting the number of in line 6 available, then you reduce the number of models available with M/T and you make having good brakes an expensive option. The G21 is a no go for N/A market and now it seem like there is no hope for the M brand.
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      07-06-2015, 09:10 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Not everyone values speed above all else even in performance cars. There are plenty of cars that are more expensive than other, faster options and offer feel/drama/theater/whatever you want to call it instead because for some people, how exciting a car is to drive is more important than how fast it is -- otherwise every performance car enthusiast with $100K to spend would buy a GT-R rather than basically anything else. Do you see everyone in that market doing that? I don't.

And if performance car enthusiasts were actually honest with themselves, the overwhelming majority of them would buy for feel rather than speed anyway. Most of the people talking about how much faster DCT is will likely never drive in a context where that last bit of performance really matters, never mind learn to drive well enough that the difference in transmission is really what prevents them from going faster, just as people who get ECU tunes and want their top speed limiter removed will likely never drive that fast anyway. I've never understood armchair racing.



The only consistent production number I've seen is 2500 units worldwide, not 600, but even that number hasn't been confirmed. Anyhow, the GT3 and GT3RS are also limited production cars, but I don't why that makes any of those cars irrelevant. And yes, Porsche may well have put a manual in the GT4 to differentiate it from the GT3, but what's wrong with that? It's still an acknowledgement that the manual transmission has a place even in performance cars. I'm also not arguing that the days of the manual transmission are numbered, just as the days of hydraulic steering and gas-powered engines are as well. That doesn't mean that any of those technologies won't be missed by at least some portion of the market.
So, will they be able to order the GT4 with white walls, crank windows, and non antilock brakes? How about an 8 track player? Because it's all about the honest experience. And damn, if you're going to pony up $175k, you should be able to be sure that the car isn't too much for you.
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      07-06-2015, 09:11 PM   #113
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To all you folks planning on buying an M car, PLEASE consider getting it as a manual transmission. Even if its a hair slower than the DCT version, its still WAY more fun to drive.
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      07-06-2015, 09:12 PM   #114
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At least make it a made-to-order option.
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      07-06-2015, 09:18 PM   #115
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Sad, a car without a stick has no soul to me. Oh well, I'll be saving tons of money in the future by never owning a new car. As well, since the iDummy generation can't figure out to operate a manual, used prices for manuals should plummet.

WIN
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      07-06-2015, 09:23 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snaimpally View Post
Even if its a hair slower than the DCT version, its still WAY more fun to drive.
While the subjective nature of "fun" may be true for the 6MT, the DCT is not a "hair" faster.
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      07-06-2015, 09:27 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by antych View Post
About time. No point wasting resources to cater for few dinosaurs.
Yeah maybe, but when the dinosaurs come back, all hell breaks loose; you've seen Jurassic Park haven't you?
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      07-06-2015, 09:28 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 n X5M View Post
Cannot find better words.

Time to save for a Ferrari.

Driving my E90 M3 I was waiting to trade it for an F80... Now, I plan to keep it and add the F80.

New BMW bosses = Retards.
I find that last phrase does not have precedence on an automotive forum especially if members like myself have children with disabilities.
Hey Scott,

Sorry about offending you or your family. I will not edit the post to preserve your point. However, you can rest assured it was a quick post with not much better thought.

Indeed the poster who used one four-letter word to indicate his reaction to withdrawal of manual transmissions in M cars was more spot on than I could be with more words. And I hope his freedom as well as mine are retained.

The forum is an entertainment and occasionally a learning device for us.

Gettin back on track here:

The BMW operation is right from a business perspective to go the many routes they go, to make bigger and more expensive cars. They are also right to cater to the Fwd market. They are also right to withdraw the manual car. As was Ferrari.

All those new business decisions by BMW make perfect sense.

Before DCT, I drove a DSG VW. The first modern dual clutch car.
DCT and DSG killed half the fun in daily driving. I can't fool myself into lying about this.

It is frustrating to lose our love of the art. The love of shifting a manual. The love of driving a manual smoothly... Even one that most folks recognize is hard to shift from 1 to second. Etc etc.

My complaint stands. The BMW direction is not exciting with the loss of a manual. I owned a DCT M3 for over 1 year, and will not say it is not more fun than a manual.

Regarding my comment about saving for a Ferrari and manual cars...
Save for a Ferrari? I mean for an F355 and cherish it. Or maybe even a manual f360. I could not afford an F430. I have not even looked up the specs of an F458.
And yes I know -The F458 is not a manual.

My next and last M car will not be DCT.
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      07-06-2015, 09:29 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C5driver View Post
While the subjective nature of "fun" may be true for the 6MT, the DCT is not a "hair" faster.
ok - two car lengths. damn that's some thick ass hair!
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      07-06-2015, 09:30 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C5driver View Post
While the subjective nature of "fun" may be true for the 6MT, the DCT is not a "hair" faster.
I believe Top Gear did that exact test with two Porsches; one with PDK the other with 3-pedals. Straight line speed the PDK one. Around the full track, the 3-pedal car was faster.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      07-06-2015, 09:38 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Convicted View Post
So, will they be able to order the GT4 with white walls, crank windows, and non antilock brakes? How about an 8 track player? Because it's all about the honest experience. And damn, if you're going to pony up $175k, you should be able to be sure that the car isn't too much for you.
Not all new technology makes drivers feel less connected; nobody is here saying that new is automatically bad. I'm also not sure how white walls, crank windows, and an 8-track are in any way relevant to a discussion around performance cars and driver involvement. As for non-ABS, I suppose there may well have been a time when purists bemoaned ABS since they claimed it removed some of the challenge of driving fast; maybe some still do. I guess everyone draws their line at a different place.

I also don't understand your point about being sure that a $175K car isn't too much for you. Most people who can afford cars like that don't have the time to develop the skills to drive them to their limits and/or choose not to. But even among drivers who have both loads of both money and talent, it's not about whether the car they're buying is "too fast" or whether they need it to be slower. It's about what the driver WANTS! Technology has reached a point where automakers sometimes have to choose to optimize for speed and trade away some driver engagement, raw feel, or whatever you want to call it, or vice versa. They can't maximize both at the same time. And when those decisions have to be made, there will be people who would rather have a slower car that they feel is more fun to drive than a fast one that feels disconnected. In fact there are already those people.

Again, if speed were everything to all performance car enthusiasts, all of them with $100K to burn would drive GT-Rs or Z06s -- and they would get REALLY excited about the prospect of an autonomous car that could drive itself around tracks at pro race driver speeds while they just sat in awe. And before you call that last analogy ridiculous, you're the one who brought in white walls and an 8-track player.

I'm honestly starting to wonder if you're just trolling or maybe don't even realize you're trolling. The only tangible argument you've made is that people who spend $150K on a car want it to be fast above all else, and would not never want a manual if it made the car slower. The simple fact that manual transmissions are available on cars that are faster with a different transmission -- and that people purchase the manual version nonetheless -- completely disproves that point, not to mention the broader fact that at a given price point there are different performance cars with very different feels and design goals that different consumers want for different reasons. An Aston Martin V12 Vantage S and a GT3RS are in the same price ballpark and both attract customers -- but those customers have very different preferences and priorities. Do you think the Aston customers are the least bit bothered by the fact that they could go faster in a GT3RS?
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      07-06-2015, 09:42 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by signes
Not surprising but also seems pretty wishy washy. Agree about 600bhp, hopefully they keep focusing on weight reduction and driving dynamics.
Wishy washy---agreed. Are you sure this guy ain't a politician?
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      07-06-2015, 09:47 PM   #123
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dct is very good.
the future for the
new 30 somethings will enjoy it.
BMW always look'n ahead.

if this is the last decade for MT for BMW let it be. there's enough 3rd pedal cars out there to keep me happy til the end of my existence. My son will enjoy one briefly - my grandson will prob'ly not.

BMW are ur building a brand for long term customers or true car enthusiasts or luxury end users... or all the above. Hopefully bmw has that answered.
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      07-06-2015, 09:48 PM   #124
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Fine by me as long as they continue to reduce weight.
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      07-06-2015, 09:48 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I believe Top Gear did that exact test with two Porsches; one with PDK the other with 3-pedals. Straight line speed the PDK one. Around the full track, the 3-pedal car was faster.
Results like this can be heavily influenced by the ratios that the automaker chooses for each gearbox. If Porsche had used the same ratios on their 7-speed manual as they do for their 7-speed PDK (and the same final drive ratio), I suspect it would have been a lot closer -- but they didn't. And on the Boxster and Cayman side, those cars are sometimes criticized for having too-tall gears in 6MT form compared to the PDK setup that's generally liked and that makes those cars noticeably faster. The conspiracy theorists even claim that this is a concerted effort on Porsche's part to make 6MT less appealing and reduce take rate so that they can justify killing it off.
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      07-06-2015, 09:50 PM   #126
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It's going to be a sad sad day when BMW decides to get rid of MT. I may just have to make the jump to Porsche or Audi (If they decide to keep offering it).
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      07-06-2015, 09:50 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle B
Quote:
Originally Posted by secretsquirrel View Post
I said a long time ago that I will never have a car that isn't a manual.
Hate to say it, but I think a decade from now if you refuse to only drive manual transmission cars you'll be shopping for only used cars. Manual gearboxes are going the way of the dodo bird.
Only if we let it.

If we buy them, they will still make them.

Personally, I will never buy a BMW without a clutch pedal. If they do not offer it, I will absolutely NOT buy one.
Totally agree! The day BMW stops making manual MT is the day I go elsewhere. I've never owned an auto in my life and don't plan on it. My 2 daughters and my son will both learn to drive on a stick, because like a previous poster said, it will be a lost art form and takes SKILL to operate. DCT may be slightly faster, but who the hell are you racing?? I buy for driving pleasure and that alone. I can't stand the sight of automatic sports cars.

(And yes...I will buy used if it ever does get phased out completely)
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      07-06-2015, 10:06 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antych
About time. No point wasting resources to cater for few dinosaurs.
Agreed. Sitting in New York State and the tristate area traffic sucks big time!

DTC & M xDrive for me!
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      07-06-2015, 10:08 PM   #129
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I love manual transmissions as much as the next guy, or maybe a little less.

If you guys are so passionate about having a manual offered, why don't you form some sort of "Save the manuals" campaign... Prove to them that theres a business case for these or eventually you'll be asking BMW to make manual transmission cars for the 15 dudes here that want one and can also afford it and are serious enough to actually buy it... I hate to see this dead horse beaten so much... It seems as they will continue to offer it if there's a demand for it.
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      07-06-2015, 10:12 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Not all new technology makes drivers feel less connected; nobody is here saying that new is automatically bad. I'm also not sure how white walls, crank windows, and an 8-track are in any way relevant to a discussion around performance cars and driver involvement. As for non-ABS, I suppose there may well have been a time when purists bemoaned ABS since they claimed it removed some of the challenge of driving fast; maybe some still do. I guess everyone draws their line at a different place.

I also don't understand your point about being sure that a $175K car isn't too much for you. Most people who can afford cars like that don't have the time to develop the skills to drive them to their limits and/or choose not to. But even among drivers who have both loads of both money and talent, it's not about whether the car they're buying is "too fast" or whether they need it to be slower. It's about what the driver WANTS! Technology has reached a point where automakers sometimes have to choose to optimize for speed and trade away some driver engagement, raw feel, or whatever you want to call it, or vice versa. They can't maximize both at the same time. And when those decisions have to be made, there will be people who would rather have a slower car that they feel is more fun to drive than a fast one that feels disconnected. In fact there are already those people.

Again, if speed were everything to all performance car enthusiasts, all of them with $100K to burn would drive GT-Rs or Z06s -- and they would get REALLY excited about the prospect of an autonomous car that could drive itself around tracks at pro race driver speeds while they just sat in awe. And before you call that last analogy ridiculous, you're the one who brought in white walls and an 8-track player.

I'm honestly starting to wonder if you've just never driven a car on a track, are just trolling, or don't even realize you're trolling.
No, your simplistic, better than thou pontificating doesn't really make me want to tuck my tail. I've tracked my last 4 cars, the E39m, the E46m, the E92m, and my current, about 10-12x per year for a long time. First 2 were mt, last 2 are DCT. So if you want to preach about how true enthusiasts only want mt, save it for your fellow "those were the days" buds. I'm involved in my driving experience every time I get in the car, and even though I'm not great at performance driving, I'm 100% sure that with a DCT, I could beat me. And that's my marker.

And as far as you calling my reference to white walls and 8 tracks ridiculous, I don't think you could even hear the whoosh. I want a performance car that performs. You want this sensory unicorn that strengthens your link to the memory of grandpa. Which is fine with me. Spend $75-100-150k on a car and configure it so it won't perform as well as it could. Your money, your choice. Just please, ease up on the preaching.
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      07-06-2015, 10:13 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Results like this can be heavily influenced by the ratios that the automaker chooses for each gearbox. If Porsche had used the same ratios on their 7-speed manual as they do for their 7-speed PDK (and the same final drive ratio), I suspect it would have been a lot closer -- but they didn't. And on the Boxster and Cayman side, those cars are sometimes criticized for having too-tall gears in 6MT form compared to the PDK setup that's generally liked and that makes those cars noticeably faster. The conspiracy theorists even claim that this is a concerted effort on Porsche's part to make 6MT less appealing and reduce take rate so that they can justify killing it off.
but 6mt won in the correct situation.

Fifth gear did one too (don't remember if Cayman or Carrera), 6mt won on track due to less weight. And those buys Tiff and Plato could actually drive.
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      07-06-2015, 10:14 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCG View Post
Agreed. Sitting in New York State and the tristate area traffic sucks big time!

DTC & M xDrive for me!


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