Why are 'We' Obsessed with M3/M4 Ride Height?

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Deviant

Noooooo....they built them to go as fast and handle as well as possible while still being able to go up a driveway without destroying the whole front end and making it possible to go over a speed bump. It's called common sense.

That's exactly right. I need for my M4 to do those things and am glad that BMW designed so that it would.

[Jdebitjr]

Originally Posted by RobbyMack

My $0.02, those little German engineers are way smarter than the guy busting out suspension pieces for (insert favorite after market brand). So I'll just leave it well enough alone.

+1

[BhamDavid]

Originally Posted by Deviant

Newsflash: things can be done to these cars to actually "improve performance." You don't have to be an engineer to realize this. It's called common sense.

First, I am an engineer. Second, both my common sense and engineering background tell me that anyone that thinks that simply lowering a car improves its handling hasn't a clue.

Yes, DTM cars sit lower. And you can be assured that many more hours of engineering and tuning goes into their setup than anyone's aftermarket springs or coilovers.

You want look cool? I'm fine with that. It's your car. But don't delude yourself that you have somehow "improved" it's handling.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by BhamDavid

First, I am an engineer. Second, both my common sense and engineering background tell me that anyone that thinks that simply lowering a car improves its handling hasn't a clue.

Yes, DTM cars sit lower. And you can be assured that many more hours of engineering and tuning goes into their setup than anyone's aftermarket springs or coilovers.

You want look cool? I'm fine with that. It's your car. But don't delude yourself that you have somehow "improved" it's handling.

[Deviant]

Originally Posted by BhamDavid

First, I am an engineer. Second, both my common sense and engineering background tell me that anyone that thinks that simply lowering a car improves its handling hasn't a clue.

Yes, DTM cars sit lower. And you can be assured that many more hours of engineering and tuning goes into their setup than anyone's aftermarket springs or coilovers.

You want look cool? I'm fine with that. It's your car. But don't delude yourself that you have somehow "improved" it's handling.

No one said that simply lowering a car improves it's handling. But to categorically say that you can't improve on the handling is as much of a false statement. However, until someone puts the correct coilovers and races the same car stock then these arguments are pointless.

And "improving performance" isn't tied to just lowering. It's tune, exhaust, down pipes, etc and I'd say some of the before/after dynos posted in these threads do show that some of these "improve performance."

[AMPowerJ]

Originally Posted by Deviant

First is, in reference to your other cars posted, in my eyes the gap seems proportionate front and back. I know on my M3 I have 1/2" gap in the rear and 2" in the front. To me it looks extremely disproportionate and I have to disagree with one poster and say to me it looks worse in person than it does in pics.

So I wonder if BMW does this on purpose? Obviously it could be corrected if they saw a need to ... unless the rear sits lower for handling reasons.

Maybe they do it for marketing reasons so they can sell a $4000 Comp package later that includes shorter springs.

Maybe they really just don't see a problem with it. Like building a house and missing a key design point that most people see and you don't.

Maybe I am still obsessing over it.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Deviant

And "improving performance" isn't tied to just lowering. It's tune, exhaust, down pipes, etc and I'd say some of the before/after dynos posted in these threads do show that some of these "improve performance."

BMW also has the requirement to make their automobiles to be street legal. Many of the mods made by people are NOT street legal, yet they make the mod and drive the cars on the street. Apparently, thumbing their nose at authority is as cool as they think their cars are. An M4 DTM car is a high performance car and definitely has "improved performance" over the M4, but you can't drive it on the street.

[W///]

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

So I wonder if BMW does this on purpose? Obviously it could be corrected if they saw a need to ... unless the rear sits lower for handling reasons.

Maybe they do it for marketing reasons so they can sell a $4000 Comp package later that includes shorter springs.

Maybe they really just don't see a problem with it. Like building a house and missing a key design point that most people see and you don't.

Maybe I am still obsessing over it.

It's not like ZCP even drops the car enough where it would be satisfactory to me. But you have to realize, if the car was actually as low as I like, I'm sure many more people would curb the front. Not to mention like someone said the legality of the car in various countries around the world. I know Japan and China are super strict about how wide the track of the car can be vs the body ect...

I at least know to be careful with curbs and speed bumps with my E92. There'd be a lot more damage if I gave it to someone that had no clue.

[M3guy3]

my ZCP M3 with beefy after market PSS looks great IMO. there is zero wheel gap in the rear, and little gap in the front. would never dream of lowering it.

[serieD]

Originally Posted by Deviant

If they engineered these cars for only performance they'd look like a DTM race car. Newsflash: things can be done to these cars to actually "improve performance." You don't have to be an engineer to realize this. It's called common sense.

Exactly the kind of guy who I want working on my F82...

[2sporty]

because

[Zeroblade]

In NYC I cringe at the sight of a lowered car. You give up comfort, flexibility, long term ownership just for looks. Streets are far from perfect here so lowering just for looks just asking for trouble. There's no race tracks in NYC. I call BS if they tell me is for track days. Potholes, curbs, elevation changes, construction sites and list goes on and all I see a car getting damaged over long term.

Then there resale value. My friend and I windowed shopped E46's and E90's sometime back and kept finding local cars just beaten to hell. The majority of them all lowered. I would never consider lowering.

[tooch]

Lowering is a must for me. Just looks so much better also I enjoy the ride quality much more . The car just feels tighter overall and that always good.

[Nate2046]

Is this thread for real? You do realize that all our vaunted manufacturers (BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, etc) put out Competition, Challenge, GT, etc versions of their cars that almost always include lower than standard spec suspensions, right? None of these cars in standard trim are at their optimum ride height out of the factory for performance. They're compromised for tons of factors, many of which relate to selling the most cars to the broadest spectrum of buyers. As to not being able to drive a car lowered on springs because of road conditions or stiffness, again, I don't get it. To me, the compromises are minimal. My wife is the furthest thing from an enthusiast but she loved driving my e86M lowered on Eibach springs as well as my current e92M on H&R Race springs. She drove both cars stock and had no idea when I made the switch to the aftermarket springs. Both cars were/are year round drivers here in the Midwest and I've never had any issues relating to lack of ground clearance.

I get that you want to keep your car stock because it better suits your needs, and I agree not to post incessant comments about your stock ride height. How about the same courtesy in return

[IND-Distribution]

Automotive manufacturers make many compromises when designing a car, and not all are tailored around performance in particular. Ultimately BMW gives you an overall package with the M3 or M4, and both cars represent a juggling of thousands of different criteria and constraints.

Ride height is only one of many factors that are considered when modifying a car's suspension, including spring rate, roll center, roll axis inclination, and centers of mass. Simply saying a given ride height is too high of too low is truly only discussing a small fraction of the complete picture.

[Deviant]

Originally Posted by Nate2046

Is this thread for real? You do realize that all our vaunted manufacturers (BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, etc) put out Competition, Challenge, GT, etc versions of their cars that almost always include lower than standard spec suspensions, right? None of these cars in standard trim are at their optimum ride height out of the factory for performance. They're compromised for tons of factors, many of which relate to selling the most cars to the broadest spectrum of buyers. As to not being able to drive a car lowered on springs because of road conditions or stiffness, again, I don't get it. To me, the compromises are minimal. My wife is the furthest thing from an enthusiast but she loved driving my e86M lowered on Eibach springs as well as my current e92M on H&R Race springs. She drove both cars stock and had no idea when I made the switch to the aftermarket springs. Both cars were/are year round drivers here in the Midwest and I've never had any issues relating to lack of ground clearance.

I get that you want to keep your car stock because it better suits your needs, and I agree not to post incessant comments about your stock ride height. How about the same courtesy in return

Where's the Like Button?

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Nate2046

I get that you want to keep your car stock because it better suits your needs, and I agree not to post incessant comments about your stock ride height. How about the same courtesy in return

The whole idea of these forums is for people to share information and express their opinions on various topics. Amazingly enough, everybody will not always share your opinion and even more amazingly, you will not always share their opinion. It is not a lack of courtesy to post comments that disagree with your viewpoint.

[Mandi90TT]

Originally Posted by gmcconn535

The whole idea of these forums is for people to share information and express their opinions on various topics. Amazingly enough, everybody will not always share your opinion and even more amazingly, you will not always share their opinion. It is not a lack of courtesy to post comments that disagree with your viewpoint.

Of course people will disagree. What is a lack of courtesy, veering towards being a downright ass, is to post comments saying that this mod or that mod looks like shit, or is disresptectful to the German engineers, or some other rudely disparaging remark.

For me, I like the look of a lowered car, but will not be doing it to my M4, because I also like the ability to easily go over curbs and speedbumps without having to turn almost sideways to get better clearance.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

Of course people will disagree. What is a lack of courtesy, veering towards being a downright ass, is to post comments saying that this mod or that mod looks like shit, or is disresptectful to the German engineers, or some other rudely disparaging remark.

For me, I like the look of a lowered car, but will not be doing it to my M4, because I also like the ability to easily go over curbs and speedbumps without having to turn almost sideways to get better clearance.

Well, I most certainly apologize if I have been an ass to anyone.

[Mandi90TT]

Originally Posted by gmcconn535

Well, I most certainly apologize if I have been an ass to anyone.

I'll make it clear, in case there was confusion. I was quoting you, not because I have seen any such thing from you, but because you wer eboth the last person to post, and had a relevant point that I wanted to discuss. I apoligize if it sounded like I was saying that you were an ass, that certainly wasn't my intent.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

I'll make it clear, in case there was confusion. I was quoting you, not because I have seen any such thing from you, but because you wer eboth the last person to post, and had a relevant point that I wanted to discuss. I apoligize if it sounded like I was saying that you were an ass, that certainly wasn't my intent.

Great!! Thanks.

[kitw]

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

So I wonder if BMW does this on purpose? Obviously it could be corrected if they saw a need to ... unless the rear sits lower for handling reasons.

Maybe they do it for marketing reasons so they can sell a $4000 Comp package later that includes shorter springs.

Maybe they really just don't see a problem with it. Like building a house and missing a key design point that most people see and you don't.

Maybe I am still obsessing over it.

One of the key things that manufacturers often have to do differently for the US market is change front ride height for US headlight regulations. We force headlights to be a given distance above the ground in the front.

I think it looks terrible, personally.