Automatic over Manual??

swebmw · 02-12-2006, 12:41 AM

Hi folks!

Dear Moderators, Im gonna touch a kinda tabu subject now, and I would appreciate if you let us have a healthy debate.
I would also appreciate if people would think threw their answers before posting them. Im not trying to be offensive by any means, so dont flame me. I´m just curios. (this post is mainly directed to american drivers)

I´m from Sweden and I´ve ordered a E90 330i (will arrive end of Mars hopefully). When we order cars in sweden (any car), manual transmission is standard, and automatic is an option. In the US it´s the other way around. Why?

Is it because people are lazier in the states? Or are people in general not capable of driving with the stick? Or could it be that those "in charge" dont have any faith in american driving-skills?

In Sweden, 90% use Manual transmission and the rest are either old/disabled people, or taxidrivers. Now I´ve been to the states and I would say those numbers are the opposite over there.
Question is, why does two very similar people and countries drive their cars so different (dont compare this to the english driving on the other side)? Is it due to one of my earlier stated reasons, or could it be something else?

Now I´ve been to the US several times and I can honestly say that the common american is a far worse driver than the common swede. This is probably due to the american "no-brainer" driving-license-tests, which require a minimun amount of skills and knowledge, for kids (= 16 years). In Sweden you have to take lessons atleast for 2 years before even attemting taking the license when turning 18 years old. And unless you have special reasons, you have to learn the Manual transmission and nothing else. And believe me, tests are hard and expensive.

My opinion is that Manual transmission creates much more skilled drivers, both in handling and thinking when driving. And anyone that have driven Manual from the beginning knows that arguments like "its distracting" or "it gets confusing having to think about switching" is pure bs. Once you learn Manual, it gets as automatic in your driving as the Automatic transmission. If you have kids, I woudl recommend you to force them drive Manual, for their own safety.

So is this difference just a cultural thing, or could it be somethig else? Two reason to why I posted it here. People seem to know their cars, and also I believe ordering a E90 without Automatic Transmission is a waste of money.

E90-4life · 02-12-2006, 12:47 AM

have we done a poll on this? Anyone?

Oz · 02-12-2006, 12:50 AM

Manual transmission is also standard here as well. I got an automatic transmission myself mainly because its what my family drive and I commute to NYC often and we do have good amount of traffic here.

I know at least in Turkey most people drive manuals because gasoline is VERY expensive and it's easier&cheaper to fix a manual transmission. I don't know the reason why all cars in United State are automatic myself so I can't comment on that.

I agree with the fact that it's much easier to acquire a driver license here in United States but I don't think it makes them worse drivers. I have seen many good and bad drivers in all the countries I have been to.

swebmw · 02-12-2006, 01:03 AM

Well even if it sounds like it, I´m not saying that having Automatic is wrong...I´m just curios to why ALL americans have it from the beginning.

I would say having an automatic would reduce the gas flow (manual drivers tend to drive a little bit harder)...I could be wrong though.
Gas in Sweden is 3-4 times more expensive than in the US

I´m not saying there aint good american drivers...I´m just saying that the average american driver is without a doubt less skilled than the average swedish. That being said, you guys probably have alot more "top"-drivers than we have.

thunderbirdsarego · 02-12-2006, 01:12 AM

swebmw,

I'm originally from the UK and when I first came to North America was horrified by the cold beer, cars that float like boats and the abundance of automatic transmissions.

However, having been here for coming on for 2 decades I noticed a few other things.

Summer: they actually have them over here. Not only does the sun come out for many days in a row (months in fact in some places like Colorado and Utah) it is also hot. Cold beer turns out to be quite refreshing when it is 30+ C outside. (This also explains the existence of BBQs which although they I hear they have these in Britain now make about as much sense to me as warm beer in the desert.)

Driving: they drive their cars over here. I don't mean to the corner store but lots, everywhere. They eat in cars and even watch movies in cars. But seriously, people will drive 50km for dinner or 200km if the food is really good - gas is way cheaper than water! When commuting and general travelling distances are high the appeal of the automatic transmission should need no explanation especially given that for most people, worldwide, driving is a means to get from A to B.

Roads: in some areas of the US the roads are dreadful (potholes like mine shafts). This coupled with the amount of driving people do (none of those exorbitant Euro gas taxes) means that people will often want a softer suspension to prevent haemorrhoids. In addition, roads in North America are generally wide and straight. Cities did not evolve over the last 1000 years but were designed, most in a logical grid like fashion. Cars that handle are thus not always appreciated. Cars that take off in a straight line are. Why? I've already told you, the roads are straight. This also explains why many US built cars have large engines with lots of low down torque and are generally better matched to automatic transmissions than typical European engines (which are themselves typically smaller than the engines they export to North America).

The long and short of it is that people worldwide adapt to their environment, and Americans are no different. This also explains why you can get outstanding warm beer in Seattle and Vancouver and even in Colorado (because they have winters there, ah yes, and AWD vehicles! ;-)

Of course, I am a creature of habit and still drive a standard. Most likely I always will ... hmmm, but I must say that the A3 I test drove with the Audi DSG was kinda interesting!

Matt_UKTX · 02-12-2006, 01:15 AM

OK...first of all, I don't think you can make generalizations about the driving skills of some 250 million (or more) drivers. There are good drivers and bad in the US, as I am sure there are in Sweden. Your question is a little like me asking "Why don't you drive a Saab or a Volvo?" Anyway, enough said about that, so let's move on...

I agree that the driving test is much easier in the US than other countries, and there is a simple reason for that. There is little or no public transportation in the US, compared to Europe. Some cities have great public transportation, but for the most part a car is a necessity here, and every kid has one from the age 0f 16 (or younger)

I grew up in the UK, where it is mandatory to drive a stick (manual) when learning to drive. I have to be honest and say that I couldn't face driving one now. Driving an automatic is so much smoother and less stressful. Does that make me lazy? ...perhaps, but I much prefer the auto trans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

Well even if it sounds like it, I´m not saying that having Automatic is wrong...I´m just curios to why ALL americans have it from the beginning.

I would say having an automatic would reduce the gas flow (manual drivers tend to drive a little bit harder)...I could be wrong though.
Gas in Sweden is 3-4 times more expensive than in the US

I´m not saying there aint good american drivers...I´m just saying that the average american driver is without a doubt less skilled than the average swedish. That being said, you guys probably have alot more "top"-drivers than we have.

visor · 02-12-2006, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

Gas in Sweden is 3-4 times more expensive than in the US

You answered your own question right there.

It also explains why more than half the vehicles on the road in the US are gas-guzzling SUV's, ... and I can bet that 99% of them are automatics.

Another reason for the difference is that most American commuting is done in heavy traffic in cities+suburbs, so manuals can be quite tiring to shift frequently.

///E90pilot · 02-12-2006, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

Is it because people are lazier in the states? Or are people in general not capable of driving with the stick? Or could it be that those "in charge" dont have any faith in american driving-skills?

Yes, that's it. Just as reflected in the US's GDP & rate of unemployment. What a generalization.

But truthfully, it's a cultural thing. Once upon a time the auto transmission was perceived as a luxury and it has been that way ever since. In the States, standard transmissions are for cheap cars or race cars.

Americans have much better driving skills, although they drive slow. And the pedestrian always has the right-of-way.

user1 · 02-12-2006, 01:40 AM

I find people who start out saying, “I don’t mean to offend, but…” tend to always be the ones offending. Your questions are rather assuming and the words appear to have been chosen to offend. But I'm just going to write this off as a lack of education to better formulate your questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

Is it because people are lazier in the states? Or are people in general not capable of driving with the stick? Or could it be that those "in charge" dont have any faith in american driving-skills?

The way these questions are worded is like if I asked, “Why are all the people in Sweden ignorant?” If I had asked that I would be assuming the all people in Sweden are ignorant and I just want an answer to why it is the case. I don’t mean to be offensive here

But hopefully you can see my point.

You could have written a less offensive post by leaving out your assumptions and ask straight forward questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

When we order cars in sweden (any car), manual transmission is standard, and automatic is an option. In the US it´s the other way around. Why?

You have bad information. The majority of vehicles in the US are sold with manual standard and automatics are an option. This includes the e90.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

Is it because people are lazier in the states?

There are many reasons Americans buy automatics. For one, they are less concerned with gas mileage and more concerned with convenience. Another reason is the traffic is much worse in many US cities than in Sweden. Many Americans find it less stressing to drive an automatic in traffic. E90Pilot also had a good point that autos were once perceived to be luxury and the perception stuck. I could list many more reasons but you have too many questions to answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

Or are people in general not capable of driving with the stick?

Not at all. The majority of people I know how to drive a stick. Most Americans that I know that have multiple cars have at least one as a stick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

Or could it be that those "in charge" dont have any faith in american driving-skills?

In case you hadn’t heard America has been free for quite some time

The only people “in charge” is the person buying the vehicle. So the decision to have an automatic is not up to anyone but the purchaser of the vehicle. Its called personal choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

In Sweden, 90% use Manual transmission and the rest are either old/disabled people, or taxidrivers. Now I´ve been to the states and I would say those numbers are the opposite over there.

This is the first thing you got right in your post. In the US there are about 90% automatics. I need to do some searching but there are several articles about manuals and automatics in various countries. Some of the articles point to a trend where European automatic sales are on the rise. This is partially due to increased engine technologies that allow for improved gas mileage in automatics. With the improved mileage people in Europe are beginning to switch. If I were you this is where I would enter an offensive comment like asking “Is the increase in automatics in Europe due to laziness?”

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

Question is, why does two very similar people and countries drive their cars so different (dont compare this to the english driving on the other side)? Is it due to one of my earlier stated reasons, or could it be something else?

I believe I answered this above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

Now I´ve been to the US several times and I can honestly say that the common american is a far worse driver than the common swede.

I’m also well traveled. I’m even part Swede. I can point out many worse countries than the US for bad driving but I don’t wish to offend. I guess this observation is just your perception and I will leave it at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

This is probably due to the american "no-brainer" driving-license-tests, which require a minimun amount of skills and knowledge, for kids (= 16 years). In Sweden you have to take lessons atleast for 2 years before even attemting taking the license when turning 18 years old. And unless you have special reasons, you have to learn the Manual transmission and nothing else. And believe me, tests are hard and expensive.

Yet another assumption made through ignorance. Did you have a bad time when you visited the US that you have such a poor view of the US? In any case, each state in the US has their own set of laws which require different levels of aptitude and knowledge to get a license. Some states are easier and others are harder. But all states do share generally accepted laws for driving. In the state where I grew up you could get a driving permit at 14 where you could drive with a licensed adult above the age of 25. You also had to take a drivers education course which consisted of practical driving skills (manual included), class time and tests. At 16 you could then apply for a license by taking a written test, eye exam and driving test. Only then could you get a license at the age of 16. If you failed a test you have a minimum of 2 weeks before taking the next test and you may be required to repeat a portion of training that you failed. While this is not as expensive as Sweden, it sounds like it involves more training and time over those 2 years than Sweden.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

My opinion is that Manual transmission creates much more skilled drivers, both in handling and thinking when driving. And anyone that have driven Manual from the beginning knows that arguments like "its distracting" or "it gets confusing having to think about switching" is pure bs. Once you learn Manual, it gets as automatic in your driving as the Automatic transmission. If you have kids, I woudl recommend you to force them drive Manual, for their own safety.

For the most part I can agree with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

So is this difference just a cultural thing, or could it be somethig else?

Its just personal preference in the US. I think events such as traffic & lower gas prices (not as concerned with mileage) are more of a reason for the automatics than culture. Traffic is an environmental reason, not cultural.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

Two reason to why I posted it here. People seem to know their cars, and also I believe ordering a E90 without Automatic Transmission is a waste of money.

I’m confused by this. Wasn’t your post up to this point calling Americans lazy for having automatics? So why would you think an “E90 without Automatic Transmission is a waste of money”? Does this mean you have an Automatic and you are in fact lazy? I don’t mean to offend

aapriadi · 02-12-2006, 01:49 AM

whoooaaa go easy on this dude, i hope u meant no offense to the american drivers!!

Now I´ve been to the US several times and I can honestly say that the common american is a far worse driver than the common swede. This is probably due to the american "no-brainer" driving-license-tests, which require a minimun amount of skills and knowledge, for kids (= 16 years). In Sweden you have to take lessons atleast for 2 years before even attemting taking the license when turning 18 years old. And unless you have special reasons, you have to learn the Manual transmission and nothing else. And believe me, tests are hard and expensive.

how can u say far worse and no-brainer?? thats not cool pal!

i'm from indonesia and if u've ever been there, u'll be surprised at the traffic! its just like the traffic in thailand? get it? and yes in my country, the cars are right-hand drive unlike the u.s.a's left-hand..
plus i think the american driving test is not a no-brainer, its just as difficult as the test in indonesia

i love manual and have driven sticks since i was 15, for ur info indonesia is a corrupt country..if u've the money, u can (most of the times) buy ur way out of everythin! but u know why i bought auto? its because i got so sick of shiftin gears all day long when i was in indonesia, traffic jams there is way worse than ny's

another thing, dont ever jump to conclusion about this topic! it could be the americans' preference too that they rather get automatic, as we know americans appreciate technology...and auto gears is a part of advanced tech...drivin a manual car doesnt mean u're a better driver, it proves nothin...

i hope to offend no one, but please especially when it comes to this kinda topic, dont ever call other people worse drivers or lazy or no-brainer..

be tolerant and respect one another alright? peace out

docbolo · 02-12-2006, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swebmw

Im not trying to be offensive by any means, so dont flame me.

I'm not trying to offend swebmw, but if not for us lazy americans (with 10000 times the GDP of sweden) we would all be speaking in german now.

aapriadi · 02-12-2006, 01:56 AM

whoops forgot to mention, there's no legal age for drivers in indo...u can buy these fake driving license and hence i was able to drive when i was 15...if u're caught, u can always bribe ur way out lol!

and i'm sorry if i offended anyone, i meant u no offense swebmw but just go easy ok

ksfrogman · 02-12-2006, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E90-4life

have we done a poll on this? Anyone?

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9422

hotsand5 · 02-12-2006, 02:20 AM

I think that the automatic transmission was first marketed as a luxury in the US, as it is in the rest of the world now, but then car makers saw that people were moving farther out of the cities and into the suburbs. We were spending more time in the car traveling to and from work, visiting family across this vast country, or just crawling in traffic jams. They wanted to make it easier to operate and drive a car, and actually advertised that they wanted a car in every garage. GM's Oldsmobile offered the first automatic as an option in a production car in the 1940's called the hyramatic, followed by chryslers "fluid-drive." Gas was cheap, so the fuel efficiency benefits of a manual didn't give much leeway to the convenience and the ease of operation of the auto. I remember when I was a kid, we would take vacations to Las Vegas, Nevada in the car from Chicago, which took almost 3 days to get there. The roads are straight for 100's of miles at a time. Just set the cruise control to 65mph, and enjoy the boring senery. We wanted to soft suspension to soak up any bumps, and feel like we are floating on water. There were no curves where you needed both hands on "10 and 2" on the steering wheel. The steering was so light that you could make a U turn with your pinky finger. Even today, it is not uncommon to spend at LEAST 15 hrs a week in a car. (Sorry for the long history guys)!

I do think that we are somewhat lazy when it comes to driving, as those are the traits that were implied to us. Unlike Europe, and I guess the rest of the world, driving is not an experience for us, it is a chore that we MUST do every single day, for hours a day, since all of our residental zones are greatly seperated from commercial and industrial zones. Hence the FWD 3 or 4 speed auto's, with a 5,000rpm redline. I don't know if we could ever change our culture to match the driving behavior that you guys are used to. I'd hate to say it, but there is almost no need to, considering the factors that we are faced with; low speed limits, straight roads, etc. But we do have many drivers here that drive with "your kind" of respect for the car, the rules, the behavior, the entire driving aura that you mentioned, and with an automatic. I, on the other hand, believe that a true driving machine should have a manual trans, not auto manual, not tiptronic, not even SMG. I tell you (the car) when to shift, how long to hold the gear, how hard to shift, not the other way around. And yes, all my cars are manual, which I drive in downtown Chicago traffic every day (13 miles to work takes 1 hour one way). It is second nature and definatley not a chore, and as soon as I hit that open stretch of road, where I can double clutch from third to second and shift till the top of third, it is all well worth it; when I can keep it in 2nd at 6,000 rpm on the entire onramp, it is once again well worth it and rewarding in itslef! I also agree with swebmw when he states that we are more distracted with an auto than w/ a manual. I have also drivin in Germany, Croatia, Austria, Switzerland, Slovenia and Bosnia, so I don't think that it is a generalization when I again agree with swebmw when he says that we are worse drivers here than they are over there. Maybe the culprit is the automatic transmission, where at the same time you can talk on your phone, sip your coffee and eat breakfast, shave, read the sports page and check your email at the same time??? Sorry for the very long thread, but maybe this can stir up some debate as well.

akhbhaat · 02-12-2006, 02:51 AM

I don't find the notion of average American drivers as "terrible" to be offensive, because they are. I'd estimate that up to 50% of licensed drivers in this country are completely unfit to operate the vehicles that they drive on a daily basis. Nevermind the fact that lax enforcement of essential traffic laws/behavior (such as interstate lane discipline) encourages the development of bad/lazy habits which then last in most drivers for a lifetime.

For my part, I make a concerted effort NOT to conform to that stereotype. Just because my countrymen have a taste for tacky gas guzzling SUVs, bad music, and bad driving doesn't mean that I have to as well.

Anyway, there has been a sort of resurgence of manual transmission use among younger American drivers (particularly young males), who are attracted to them for one reason or another, usually because they've been glorified in import tuner culture (notice the Fast and the Furious movies, for example). In fact, driving a remotely sporty car (such as a 350Z) with an automatic trans is nwo a good way to get yourself laughed at. Though manuals have now long been regarded as an economy car staple or some sort of exotic toy found in high end sports cars, there is a new sort of allure emerging that comes with driving a manual trans car in a culture dominated by automatics. For example, most women I've asked have told me that a man who can drive a manual transmission well is more attractive to them than one who cannot (though I think this naturally follows along the lines of "men who can do things" being more attractive anyway). Who knew?

SRT · 02-12-2006, 02:59 AM

Might seem contrary to popular belief, but I find manual easier - it has a lot to do with preference and ability - if you enjoy driving manual, and know how to do it properly - you probably will prefer a manual transmission - I find it to be the better option, especially when needing to park rapidly or make adjustments to positioning, can flick from reverse, to first gear, back to reverse etc quite rapidly - it's a lot easier to control a car at lower speeds too, which also helps with parking or negotiating tight spots (situation you will find yourself in quite often here in London)

I have never driven an auto, but I have sat in a car which was (a BMW 330ci) - it probably is as easy as it sounds - especially with all the sport options and sequential gear selection. I found that I could sit further back and felt far more relaxed- it is an expensive option though - certainly could treat your ride to a lot of extra goodies, in exchange for some self-cog-changing experience

e90rocks · 02-12-2006, 03:57 AM

Well, I could respond with logic, pseudonationalism, sexism or humor.

Let's do this in reverse order.

Humor: America is rampant with asinistropodism. Didn't you notice that Yanks don't have left feet? How do you expect us to operate the clutch?

Sexist answer: All our wives in USA drive, and so we get automatic transmission for them. (easy there....just being facetious)

Pseudonationalism: Oh, you Swedes, without us you'd be speaking German. So be quiet and go buy Saabs.

Logic:
Let's analyze your syllogism.
A. A higher percentage of Americans drive automatics
B. Automatic drivers are lazy
C. Therefore Americans are lazy, or at least lazy drivers.

Let's stipulate that A. is true.

B. is not as clear a statement. While a lazy driver would likely choose an automatic, the converse is not necessarily true. There are a number of reasons why one might choose an automatic, including
1) learned to drive in one and so feel more comfortable in it
2) lots of hills and/or heavy traffic makes automatic more convenient
3) using automatic makes it easier to use the cell phone, eat (I have not eaten in my car since I bought my BMW, however

), navigate, or deal with children in the back.

Also the march of technology changes the game.
1) automatics are much closer now as far as fuel efficiency and performance
2) Steptronic allows many to feel like they can have their cake and eat it, too. One member of the family may drive with full automatic, another with DS and another with Manual mode.

A Lazy People?
As for Americans being lazy, why is it that Americans average two weeks of vacation annually instead of 4-6? Why do so many American families have both parents at work? Surely this is not because we are lazy. Now let's be clear on this....I'm an Asian American born here in the States, and admittedly don't work more than 60 hours a week. I have been only to the UK and Taiwan as far as other continents....Still....if someone from across the Pacific called Americans lazy, maybe that would be a reasonable perspective, seeing the fanatical work habits in East Asia...I'm not so sure about comments from across the Atlantic. If this is offensive, correct me with statistics, not indignation. Show me that Swedes work more hours and take fewer vacations.

Lazy Drivers?
Americans log MANY miles annually. There is a fatigue factor involved here. As fatigue sets in, safety is also affected. I do agree with the concept that many Americans are unskilled drivers. Part of that may have to do with the ease of Driver's exams and low ages for permits. Nevertheless, because of the relative inconvenience of public transportation in much of the USA, people are in a hurry to drive as soon as possible.

Hey - I just thought of something....how common are automatics in the Far East? (oh....here come the stereotypes...)

I think much of this may be cultural, but I wouldn't be so quick to suggest that there is an American laziness or inappreciation of the driving experience, especially on a message board heavy with BMW enthusiasts, almost all of whom attribute their Bimmer ownership to their love of the driving experience (?Pfarfadnugen [sp?]) and not for status.

akhbhaat · 02-12-2006, 05:15 AM

An anecdotal study would likely reveal that the perception of American "laziness" is taken indirectly from the "physically unfit/fat American" stereotype which itself indirectly suggests poor physical exercise habits which may or may not be reflective of actual "laziness."

In reality, the epidemic of American obesity (a trait which falsely lends itself to to the perception of a "lazy" society) is due to primarily to a combination of the type of food consumed and the way in which it is consumed; i.e. fast foods (TV dinners, drive-thru McDonalds, microwaveable frozen food) high in fat/cholesterol/calorie content (considered desirable because they can be prepared in a minimal amount of time and usually provide quick bursts of energy) which is consumed at uneven, inconsistent intervals...and this is all because Americans work such long hours.

Long, hard working hours mean little time for eating, which means little time to prepare and enjoy proper (and healthy) foods...and which also means the consumer usually lacks the time and energy for purposeful physical exercise as well. Ironic, no?

An old mentor of mine once made an interesting observation: he would rub his rather substantial gut and remark, "In some cultures, this is considered a sign of prosperity."

Another ironic observation that I myself made came in college, when I would go to the gym at night. I always noted with amusement how people would circle around the parking lots nearest the building, looking for or waiting for spots, when the overflow lot just 50-100 meters down the road was nearly empty. If you're going to the gym with the intention of exercising, what difference does it make if you have to walk an additional 50 meters to and from your car? Clearly there's some sort of mental block that people have when it comes to allocating time in this society - most of them were probably thinking that they would spend X amount of minutes in the gym, but the extra walk could add up to 5-10 minutes to the duration of the trip as a whole (and never stopped to consider that they could simply spend 5 fewer minutes in the gym itself, and use the walk to their car as a cool down period...perhaps they didn't have time to think about it

).

SteveMD · 02-12-2006, 05:37 AM

Oh come on. Americans are terrible drivers. I put a post up about it a few weeks ago and most agreed. Now we're all indignant because someone who lives outside of the US actually dares to point it out?

There's no lane protocol on any highway, people pass on the wrong side, do 55 in the fast lane, drivers ed requirements are weak, the driving tests are weak, cars are able to be on the road in just about any condition, bald tires, no indicators etc, people have TVs in their cars (I do!!) and eat, talk on cell phones. Of course we're bad drivers. Make having to change gear manually a requirement and there would be no hope.

Generally speaking of course. I'm a brilliant driver

I will say this having moved here myself in the 80s. Having a house on a piece of land bigger than postage stamp is a huge plus. The beer is infinitely better than it used to be (real beer, not the fizzy generic crap), I seem to have more 'stuff' than I think I would have ever owned in the UK and we have the NFL! On the downside, the quality of TV really really sucks and private school is a must if you want your children to have the capability of writing meaningful sentences and adding numbers together.

NPinUK · 02-12-2006, 05:40 AM

Ordering a steptronic in a BMW is not a waste of money. People have different circumstances and tastes when buying a car.

Most ppl who buy BMW's are middle class working ppl so there is going to to be a lot of commuting to do. Therefore it will be a no brainer to buy a manual when your going to be spending a lot of time in traffic.

Dizzy330i · 02-12-2006, 06:14 AM

Wow, there seems to be a lot of circuitous extraneous debate going on here.

Well here's my contribution.

Mind you, this is coming from a person who ordered Steptronic because of traffic issues, but now regrets it and wishes he had a manual with ZSP.

As for lifestyle differences, certainly Americans drive more and drive further than a large number of other nationalities. Places are just further apart on average. That, paired along with the convenience argument makes lots of sense. It also helps to consider that a large percentage of the U.S. is flat, making the benefits of manual transmission not immediately apparent to the median commuter.

The other point is more difficult to illustrate given the differences from state to state, but it does seem that the driver's license exams are much easier here than they are in most European countries or in Japan. It is very expensive and difficult to get a driver's permit in Japan, but that isn't much of a problem when you consider the excellent public transportation system they have in place. Conversely, the mass transit system is a joke here in Miami and in most of the U.S. (except for a few metropolitan areas).

Also, I wasn't insulted by what you posted, friend. No worries! Although it was a bit brusque.

I don't think you meant to be as offensive as it sounded. When engaging in courteous debate it helps if you don't reveal any stereotypes you may have about the debate topic.

ben1364 · 02-12-2006, 08:25 AM

swebmw made interesting and accurate (mostly <g>) observations and presented them in a non-confrontional manner. Many of the responses were equally objective but a few took offense for no good reason that I can fathom. Give our Scandanavian friend a break, for goodness sake!

To you swebmw, welcome aboard. I owned one Volvo 544 (?) I think it was, ...the one that looked like a smaller 1946 American Ford 2 door sedan and one of the few 123GTs that were imported to the U S. Both were bullet proof and a hoot to drive!

02-12-2006, 12:41 AM	#1
swebmw New Member 1 Rep 5 Posts Drives: bmw E90 325i Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: sweden iTrader: (0)	Automatic over Manual?? Hi folks! Dear Moderators, Im gonna touch a kinda tabu subject now, and I would appreciate if you let us have a healthy debate. I would also appreciate if people would think threw their answers before posting them. Im not trying to be offensive by any means, so dont flame me. I´m just curios. (this post is mainly directed to american drivers) I´m from Sweden and I´ve ordered a E90 330i (will arrive end of Mars hopefully). When we order cars in sweden (any car), manual transmission is standard, and automatic is an option. In the US it´s the other way around. Why? Is it because people are lazier in the states? Or are people in general not capable of driving with the stick? Or could it be that those "in charge" dont have any faith in american driving-skills? In Sweden, 90% use Manual transmission and the rest are either old/disabled people, or taxidrivers. Now I´ve been to the states and I would say those numbers are the opposite over there. Question is, why does two very similar people and countries drive their cars so different (dont compare this to the english driving on the other side)? Is it due to one of my earlier stated reasons, or could it be something else? Now I´ve been to the US several times and I can honestly say that the common american is a far worse driver than the common swede. This is probably due to the american "no-brainer" driving-license-tests, which require a minimun amount of skills and knowledge, for kids (= 16 years). In Sweden you have to take lessons atleast for 2 years before even attemting taking the license when turning 18 years old. And unless you have special reasons, you have to learn the Manual transmission and nothing else. And believe me, tests are hard and expensive. My opinion is that Manual transmission creates much more skilled drivers, both in handling and thinking when driving. And anyone that have driven Manual from the beginning knows that arguments like "its distracting" or "it gets confusing having to think about switching" is pure bs. Once you learn Manual, it gets as automatic in your driving as the Automatic transmission. If you have kids, I woudl recommend you to force them drive Manual, for their own safety. So is this difference just a cultural thing, or could it be somethig else? Two reason to why I posted it here. People seem to know their cars, and also I believe ordering a E90 without Automatic Transmission is a waste of money.
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02-12-2006, 12:47 AM	#2
E90-4life auto pilot 266 Rep 822 Posts Drives: E60 M5 chilln on slicks Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: SoCal iTrader: (0)	have we done a poll on this? Anyone?
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02-12-2006, 12:50 AM	#3
Oz Lieutenant Colonel 33 Rep 1,770 Posts Drives: 2006 330i, 2004 X5 Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wayne, NJ iTrader: (1) Garage List 2006 330i [0.00]	Manual transmission is also standard here as well. I got an automatic transmission myself mainly because its what my family drive and I commute to NYC often and we do have good amount of traffic here. I know at least in Turkey most people drive manuals because gasoline is VERY expensive and it's easier&cheaper to fix a manual transmission. I don't know the reason why all cars in United State are automatic myself so I can't comment on that. I agree with the fact that it's much easier to acquire a driver license here in United States but I don't think it makes them worse drivers. I have seen many good and bad drivers in all the countries I have been to. __________________ 2006 330i Steptronic/Alpine White/Black Leather/Burl Walnut Trim/Premium Package/iDrive/Heated Seats/Winter: STYLE 159 Blizzak LM-22 RFT/Summer: TBD 2004 X5 Steptronic/Alpine White/Grey Leather/Poplar Trim/Premium Package/Heated Seats/iPod Adapter
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02-12-2006, 01:03 AM	#4
swebmw New Member 1 Rep 5 Posts Drives: bmw E90 325i Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: sweden iTrader: (0)	Well even if it sounds like it, I´m not saying that having Automatic is wrong...I´m just curios to why ALL americans have it from the beginning. I would say having an automatic would reduce the gas flow (manual drivers tend to drive a little bit harder)...I could be wrong though. Gas in Sweden is 3-4 times more expensive than in the US I´m not saying there aint good american drivers...I´m just saying that the average american driver is without a doubt less skilled than the average swedish. That being said, you guys probably have alot more "top"-drivers than we have.
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02-12-2006, 01:12 AM	#5
thunderbirdsarego Private 5 Rep 90 Posts Drives: 330xi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vancouver iTrader: (0)	swebmw, I'm originally from the UK and when I first came to North America was horrified by the cold beer, cars that float like boats and the abundance of automatic transmissions. However, having been here for coming on for 2 decades I noticed a few other things. Summer: they actually have them over here. Not only does the sun come out for many days in a row (months in fact in some places like Colorado and Utah) it is also hot. Cold beer turns out to be quite refreshing when it is 30+ C outside. (This also explains the existence of BBQs which although they I hear they have these in Britain now make about as much sense to me as warm beer in the desert.) Driving: they drive their cars over here. I don't mean to the corner store but lots, everywhere. They eat in cars and even watch movies in cars. But seriously, people will drive 50km for dinner or 200km if the food is really good - gas is way cheaper than water! When commuting and general travelling distances are high the appeal of the automatic transmission should need no explanation especially given that for most people, worldwide, driving is a means to get from A to B. Roads: in some areas of the US the roads are dreadful (potholes like mine shafts). This coupled with the amount of driving people do (none of those exorbitant Euro gas taxes) means that people will often want a softer suspension to prevent haemorrhoids. In addition, roads in North America are generally wide and straight. Cities did not evolve over the last 1000 years but were designed, most in a logical grid like fashion. Cars that handle are thus not always appreciated. Cars that take off in a straight line are. Why? I've already told you, the roads are straight. This also explains why many US built cars have large engines with lots of low down torque and are generally better matched to automatic transmissions than typical European engines (which are themselves typically smaller than the engines they export to North America). The long and short of it is that people worldwide adapt to their environment, and Americans are no different. This also explains why you can get outstanding warm beer in Seattle and Vancouver and even in Colorado (because they have winters there, ah yes, and AWD vehicles! ;-) Of course, I am a creature of habit and still drive a standard. Most likely I always will ... hmmm, but I must say that the A3 I test drove with the Audi DSG was kinda interesting!
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02-12-2006, 01:49 AM	#10
aapriadi Colonel 189 Rep 2,068 Posts Drives: '13 F30 AW 320i Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia iTrader: (10)	whoooaaa go easy on this dude, i hope u meant no offense to the american drivers!! Now I´ve been to the US several times and I can honestly say that the common american is a far worse driver than the common swede. This is probably due to the american "no-brainer" driving-license-tests, which require a minimun amount of skills and knowledge, for kids (= 16 years). In Sweden you have to take lessons atleast for 2 years before even attemting taking the license when turning 18 years old. And unless you have special reasons, you have to learn the Manual transmission and nothing else. And believe me, tests are hard and expensive. how can u say far worse and no-brainer?? thats not cool pal! i'm from indonesia and if u've ever been there, u'll be surprised at the traffic! its just like the traffic in thailand? get it? and yes in my country, the cars are right-hand drive unlike the u.s.a's left-hand.. plus i think the american driving test is not a no-brainer, its just as difficult as the test in indonesia i love manual and have driven sticks since i was 15, for ur info indonesia is a corrupt country..if u've the money, u can (most of the times) buy ur way out of everythin! but u know why i bought auto? its because i got so sick of shiftin gears all day long when i was in indonesia, traffic jams there is way worse than ny's another thing, dont ever jump to conclusion about this topic! it could be the americans' preference too that they rather get automatic, as we know americans appreciate technology...and auto gears is a part of advanced tech...drivin a manual car doesnt mean u're a better driver, it proves nothin... i hope to offend no one, but please especially when it comes to this kinda topic, dont ever call other people worse drivers or lazy or no-brainer.. be tolerant and respect one another alright? peace out
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02-12-2006, 01:56 AM	#12
aapriadi Colonel 189 Rep 2,068 Posts Drives: '13 F30 AW 320i Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia iTrader: (10)	whoops forgot to mention, there's no legal age for drivers in indo...u can buy these fake driving license and hence i was able to drive when i was 15...if u're caught, u can always bribe ur way out lol! and i'm sorry if i offended anyone, i meant u no offense swebmw but just go easy ok
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02-12-2006, 02:20 AM	#14
hotsand5 hotsand5 49 Rep 806 Posts Drives: 2006 BMW 330i 6spd Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: chicago iTrader: (0) Garage List 2006 330i [0.00]	I think that the automatic transmission was first marketed as a luxury in the US, as it is in the rest of the world now, but then car makers saw that people were moving farther out of the cities and into the suburbs. We were spending more time in the car traveling to and from work, visiting family across this vast country, or just crawling in traffic jams. They wanted to make it easier to operate and drive a car, and actually advertised that they wanted a car in every garage. GM's Oldsmobile offered the first automatic as an option in a production car in the 1940's called the hyramatic, followed by chryslers "fluid-drive." Gas was cheap, so the fuel efficiency benefits of a manual didn't give much leeway to the convenience and the ease of operation of the auto. I remember when I was a kid, we would take vacations to Las Vegas, Nevada in the car from Chicago, which took almost 3 days to get there. The roads are straight for 100's of miles at a time. Just set the cruise control to 65mph, and enjoy the boring senery. We wanted to soft suspension to soak up any bumps, and feel like we are floating on water. There were no curves where you needed both hands on "10 and 2" on the steering wheel. The steering was so light that you could make a U turn with your pinky finger. Even today, it is not uncommon to spend at LEAST 15 hrs a week in a car. (Sorry for the long history guys)! I do think that we are somewhat lazy when it comes to driving, as those are the traits that were implied to us. Unlike Europe, and I guess the rest of the world, driving is not an experience for us, it is a chore that we MUST do every single day, for hours a day, since all of our residental zones are greatly seperated from commercial and industrial zones. Hence the FWD 3 or 4 speed auto's, with a 5,000rpm redline. I don't know if we could ever change our culture to match the driving behavior that you guys are used to. I'd hate to say it, but there is almost no need to, considering the factors that we are faced with; low speed limits, straight roads, etc. But we do have many drivers here that drive with "your kind" of respect for the car, the rules, the behavior, the entire driving aura that you mentioned, and with an automatic. I, on the other hand, believe that a true driving machine should have a manual trans, not auto manual, not tiptronic, not even SMG. I tell you (the car) when to shift, how long to hold the gear, how hard to shift, not the other way around. And yes, all my cars are manual, which I drive in downtown Chicago traffic every day (13 miles to work takes 1 hour one way). It is second nature and definatley not a chore, and as soon as I hit that open stretch of road, where I can double clutch from third to second and shift till the top of third, it is all well worth it; when I can keep it in 2nd at 6,000 rpm on the entire onramp, it is once again well worth it and rewarding in itslef! I also agree with swebmw when he states that we are more distracted with an auto than w/ a manual. I have also drivin in Germany, Croatia, Austria, Switzerland, Slovenia and Bosnia, so I don't think that it is a generalization when I again agree with swebmw when he says that we are worse drivers here than they are over there. Maybe the culprit is the automatic transmission, where at the same time you can talk on your phone, sip your coffee and eat breakfast, shave, read the sports page and check your email at the same time??? Sorry for the very long thread, but maybe this can stir up some debate as well. __________________ -2006 BMW 330i-Sapphire Black- Tera Leather-Aluminum trim- 6spd manual- Sport- Premium- Cold- Navigation- Euro. delivery -2005 Yamaha Warrior 1700 102cu"
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02-12-2006, 02:51 AM	#15
akhbhaat Captain 181 Rep 883 Posts Drives: ///M318ti Type-R Turbo S Join Date: May 2005 Location: T1 run-off iTrader: (0)	I don't find the notion of average American drivers as "terrible" to be offensive, because they are. I'd estimate that up to 50% of licensed drivers in this country are completely unfit to operate the vehicles that they drive on a daily basis. Nevermind the fact that lax enforcement of essential traffic laws/behavior (such as interstate lane discipline) encourages the development of bad/lazy habits which then last in most drivers for a lifetime. For my part, I make a concerted effort NOT to conform to that stereotype. Just because my countrymen have a taste for tacky gas guzzling SUVs, bad music, and bad driving doesn't mean that I have to as well. Anyway, there has been a sort of resurgence of manual transmission use among younger American drivers (particularly young males), who are attracted to them for one reason or another, usually because they've been glorified in import tuner culture (notice the Fast and the Furious movies, for example). In fact, driving a remotely sporty car (such as a 350Z) with an automatic trans is nwo a good way to get yourself laughed at. Though manuals have now long been regarded as an economy car staple or some sort of exotic toy found in high end sports cars, there is a new sort of allure emerging that comes with driving a manual trans car in a culture dominated by automatics. For example, most women I've asked have told me that a man who can drive a manual transmission well is more attractive to them than one who cannot (though I think this naturally follows along the lines of "men who can do things" being more attractive anyway). Who knew?
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02-12-2006, 02:59 AM	#16
SRT Second Lieutenant 8 Rep 297 Posts Drives: BMW 5 Series Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK iTrader: (0)	Might seem contrary to popular belief, but I find manual easier - it has a lot to do with preference and ability - if you enjoy driving manual, and know how to do it properly - you probably will prefer a manual transmission - I find it to be the better option, especially when needing to park rapidly or make adjustments to positioning, can flick from reverse, to first gear, back to reverse etc quite rapidly - it's a lot easier to control a car at lower speeds too, which also helps with parking or negotiating tight spots (situation you will find yourself in quite often here in London) I have never driven an auto, but I have sat in a car which was (a BMW 330ci) - it probably is as easy as it sounds - especially with all the sport options and sequential gear selection. I found that I could sit further back and felt far more relaxed- it is an expensive option though - certainly could treat your ride to a lot of extra goodies, in exchange for some self-cog-changing experience
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02-12-2006, 03:57 AM	#17
e90rocks Myrmidon 17 Rep 236 Posts Drives: Entwicklung 90 - 325 Xi Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Pittsburgh, PA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2006 325 xi [0.00]	Lazy American Drivers? Well, I could respond with logic, pseudonationalism, sexism or humor. Let's do this in reverse order. Humor: America is rampant with asinistropodism. Didn't you notice that Yanks don't have left feet? How do you expect us to operate the clutch? Sexist answer: All our wives in USA drive, and so we get automatic transmission for them. (easy there....just being facetious) Pseudonationalism: Oh, you Swedes, without us you'd be speaking German. So be quiet and go buy Saabs. Logic: Let's analyze your syllogism. A. A higher percentage of Americans drive automatics B. Automatic drivers are lazy C. Therefore Americans are lazy, or at least lazy drivers. Let's stipulate that A. is true. B. is not as clear a statement. While a lazy driver would likely choose an automatic, the converse is not necessarily true. There are a number of reasons why one might choose an automatic, including 1) learned to drive in one and so feel more comfortable in it 2) lots of hills and/or heavy traffic makes automatic more convenient 3) using automatic makes it easier to use the cell phone, eat (I have not eaten in my car since I bought my BMW, however ), navigate, or deal with children in the back. Also the march of technology changes the game. 1) automatics are much closer now as far as fuel efficiency and performance 2) Steptronic allows many to feel like they can have their cake and eat it, too. One member of the family may drive with full automatic, another with DS and another with Manual mode. A Lazy People? As for Americans being lazy, why is it that Americans average two weeks of vacation annually instead of 4-6? Why do so many American families have both parents at work? Surely this is not because we are lazy. Now let's be clear on this....I'm an Asian American born here in the States, and admittedly don't work more than 60 hours a week. I have been only to the UK and Taiwan as far as other continents....Still....if someone from across the Pacific called Americans lazy, maybe that would be a reasonable perspective, seeing the fanatical work habits in East Asia...I'm not so sure about comments from across the Atlantic. If this is offensive, correct me with statistics, not indignation. Show me that Swedes work more hours and take fewer vacations. Lazy Drivers? Americans log MANY miles annually. There is a fatigue factor involved here. As fatigue sets in, safety is also affected. I do agree with the concept that many Americans are unskilled drivers. Part of that may have to do with the ease of Driver's exams and low ages for permits. Nevertheless, because of the relative inconvenience of public transportation in much of the USA, people are in a hurry to drive as soon as possible. Hey - I just thought of something....how common are automatics in the Far East? (oh....here come the stereotypes...) I think much of this may be cultural, but I wouldn't be so quick to suggest that there is an American laziness or inappreciation of the driving experience, especially on a message board heavy with BMW enthusiasts, almost all of whom attribute their Bimmer ownership to their love of the driving experience (?Pfarfadnugen [sp?]) and not for status.
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02-12-2006, 05:15 AM	#18
akhbhaat Captain 181 Rep 883 Posts Drives: ///M318ti Type-R Turbo S Join Date: May 2005 Location: T1 run-off iTrader: (0)	An anecdotal study would likely reveal that the perception of American "laziness" is taken indirectly from the "physically unfit/fat American" stereotype which itself indirectly suggests poor physical exercise habits which may or may not be reflective of actual "laziness." In reality, the epidemic of American obesity (a trait which falsely lends itself to to the perception of a "lazy" society) is due to primarily to a combination of the type of food consumed and the way in which it is consumed; i.e. fast foods (TV dinners, drive-thru McDonalds, microwaveable frozen food) high in fat/cholesterol/calorie content (considered desirable because they can be prepared in a minimal amount of time and usually provide quick bursts of energy) which is consumed at uneven, inconsistent intervals...and this is all because Americans work such long hours. Long, hard working hours mean little time for eating, which means little time to prepare and enjoy proper (and healthy) foods...and which also means the consumer usually lacks the time and energy for purposeful physical exercise as well. Ironic, no? An old mentor of mine once made an interesting observation: he would rub his rather substantial gut and remark, "In some cultures, this is considered a sign of prosperity." Another ironic observation that I myself made came in college, when I would go to the gym at night. I always noted with amusement how people would circle around the parking lots nearest the building, looking for or waiting for spots, when the overflow lot just 50-100 meters down the road was nearly empty. If you're going to the gym with the intention of exercising, what difference does it make if you have to walk an additional 50 meters to and from your car? Clearly there's some sort of mental block that people have when it comes to allocating time in this society - most of them were probably thinking that they would spend X amount of minutes in the gym, but the extra walk could add up to 5-10 minutes to the duration of the trip as a whole (and never stopped to consider that they could simply spend 5 fewer minutes in the gym itself, and use the walk to their car as a cool down period...perhaps they didn't have time to think about it ).
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02-12-2006, 05:37 AM	#19
SteveMD Colonel 196 Rep 2,485 Posts Drives: 2016 F10 535i MSport Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Raventown! iTrader: (3)	Oh come on. Americans are terrible drivers. I put a post up about it a few weeks ago and most agreed. Now we're all indignant because someone who lives outside of the US actually dares to point it out? There's no lane protocol on any highway, people pass on the wrong side, do 55 in the fast lane, drivers ed requirements are weak, the driving tests are weak, cars are able to be on the road in just about any condition, bald tires, no indicators etc, people have TVs in their cars (I do!!) and eat, talk on cell phones. Of course we're bad drivers. Make having to change gear manually a requirement and there would be no hope. Generally speaking of course. I'm a brilliant driver I will say this having moved here myself in the 80s. Having a house on a piece of land bigger than postage stamp is a huge plus. The beer is infinitely better than it used to be (real beer, not the fizzy generic crap), I seem to have more 'stuff' than I think I would have ever owned in the UK and we have the NFL! On the downside, the quality of TV really really sucks and private school is a must if you want your children to have the capability of writing meaningful sentences and adding numbers together. __________________ 2006 E90 330i (retired) 2009 E90 335i (retired) 2012 E70 X5 50i M Sport (retired) 2016 F10 535i M Sport Last edited by SteveMD; 02-12-2006 at 06:22 AM..
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02-12-2006, 05:40 AM	#20
NPinUK Private First Class 7 Rep 199 Posts Drives: E90 325i M Sport Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: UK Midlands iTrader: (0)	Ordering a steptronic in a BMW is not a waste of money. People have different circumstances and tastes when buying a car. Most ppl who buy BMW's are middle class working ppl so there is going to to be a lot of commuting to do. Therefore it will be a no brainer to buy a manual when your going to be spending a lot of time in traffic.
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02-12-2006, 06:14 AM	#21
Dizzy330i Private 6 Rep 95 Posts Drives: BMW 330i Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, FL USA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2006 330i [0.00]	Wow, there seems to be a lot of circuitous extraneous debate going on here. Well here's my contribution. Mind you, this is coming from a person who ordered Steptronic because of traffic issues, but now regrets it and wishes he had a manual with ZSP. As for lifestyle differences, certainly Americans drive more and drive further than a large number of other nationalities. Places are just further apart on average. That, paired along with the convenience argument makes lots of sense. It also helps to consider that a large percentage of the U.S. is flat, making the benefits of manual transmission not immediately apparent to the median commuter. The other point is more difficult to illustrate given the differences from state to state, but it does seem that the driver's license exams are much easier here than they are in most European countries or in Japan. It is very expensive and difficult to get a driver's permit in Japan, but that isn't much of a problem when you consider the excellent public transportation system they have in place. Conversely, the mass transit system is a joke here in Miami and in most of the U.S. (except for a few metropolitan areas). Also, I wasn't insulted by what you posted, friend. No worries! Although it was a bit brusque. I don't think you meant to be as offensive as it sounded. When engaging in courteous debate it helps if you don't reveal any stereotypes you may have about the debate topic. __________________ 2006 330i SG/Terra ZPP Step OEM Spoiler...and Blacklines!!
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02-12-2006, 08:25 AM	#22
ben1364 Captain 14 Rep 940 Posts Drives: E90 330iA Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Georgetown, TX iTrader: (0)	swebmw made interesting and accurate (mostly <g>) observations and presented them in a non-confrontional manner. Many of the responses were equally objective but a few took offense for no good reason that I can fathom. Give our Scandanavian friend a break, for goodness sake! To you swebmw, welcome aboard. I owned one Volvo 544 (?) I think it was, ...the one that looked like a smaller 1946 American Ford 2 door sedan and one of the few 123GTs that were imported to the U S. Both were bullet proof and a hoot to drive!
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