[NGT2]

Originally Posted by 430Scud

I don't think dealers will find the tune unless they are specifically looking for it. (I am not aware they routinely search your engine ECU for modifications to the software) I had my car into the dealer a couple times and never an issue or mention. In fact the second time (April 2021), I lost the tune, as they unexpectedly did a software "update" to my car. No big, I just went back to the tuner, and he copied the new software, added his tune to it, and flashed it back. I will likely be getting another "update" during my fourth and final "free" maintenance service this week and the dealer already told me there is another software update they will apply to my car. My tuner said to bring it back to him after, as he would like a copy of that software version as well. Again, he will add his tune and reflash it back to my car.

It sounds like the context of dealers finding the flash tune is specifically when something goes wrong. No problem, no reason to look. But a problem occurs that results in a warranty claim, and now all of a sudden people want due diligence on the car and what went wrong.

I mean it when I say this - correct me if I'm wrong or am misinterpreting all I've read. I am very drawn to the B58 engine and the 540 because of the reliability and solid history (or so I think anyway). I don't push the car. I got it CPO off a lease turn in with low miles. The original lessee may have dogged the shit out of it, I don't know. But it isn't spec'd like a car an aggressive personality would order or buy. And it was serviced less than every 10k miles, and I plan to service it every 5-6k.

All that to say, I'm pretty confident that I have a car capable of serving me for 7+ years IF I want it to. I'm not expecting an engine failure or major failure. Major maintenance expense over that period? Yes. It's a BMW. But not failure. So my main priority on a tune, piggyback or flash, is one that's engineered well to maintain that engine integrity and reliability for an extended period.

Given the choice, I'd rather have a tune that would be "found" but is very unlikely to cause a problem than one that can be "hidden" but isn't quite as particular on the engineering for maintained durability.

As an aside - all that said, I'd love to have an M550. I just wouldn't feel as confident having one has a daily for an extended period of time, especially if I wasn't the original owner.

[430Scud]

Originally Posted by PPMKING

In the past dealers had to go looking for it. Now they're removed from the process. ISTA does it now. When your car shows up at the dealer for service it's hooked up to ISTA which runs a scan for faults/errors. You can easily verify what I'm saying by asking any service advisor. Plus it's very easy for them to know by your dme flash count, that's logged.

Good to know...last time my car was hook up at the dealer was April 2021, they never said anything. Been there since, but nothing that required a scan or check. When did this become the norm?

I guess I will learn if they find anything out of the ordinary on Friday.

[430Scud]

Car serviced at dealer on Friday. My fourth and final "free" maintenance. I asked them not to do a software update (one was available) unless the technician felt it was absolutely necessary, ostensibly, so I wouldn't lose my coding for Carplay full screen, anti dazzle and variable light distribution headlights. Had the normal scan performed and services and car returned as everything in great shape. Nothing abnormal on the three page invoice or inspection report.

[23109VC]

So what is the current consensus on whether BMW can detect or figure out if you had a tune - IF YOU have a PIGGYBACK like a Dinan?

Assume the worst - your motor has some defect and blows / has some issue that requires it to be replaced. You pull out your Dinan piggyback before you have it towed to the dealer - and they determine the motor has an issue.

Is that claim for the $30k motor going to result in scans of logs and them seeing that boost levels were “elevated” and figuring out the car was tuned resulting in engine failure?

I am under the impression that for 99% of warranty issues they won;’t know and wont’ care. BUT that 1% of the time when your motor does have an issue - they may in fact do their own due diligence, and even if you have a “cool” service department, BMW corporate / regional will be involved and they will figure it out and deny the claim.

My dealer said a customer blew his motor on his F80 - and that the repair was denied. Dude had to eat the cost to repair it.

[HerkHealer]

Originally Posted by 23109VC

So what is the current consensus on whether BMW can detect or figure out if you had a tune - IF YOU have a PIGGYBACK like a Dinan?

Assume the worst - your motor has some defect and blows / has some issue that requires it to be replaced. You pull out your Dinan piggyback before you have it towed to the dealer - and they determine the motor has an issue.

Is that claim for the $30k motor going to result in scans of logs and them seeing that boost levels were “elevated” and figuring out the car was tuned resulting in engine failure?

I am under the impression that for 99% of warranty issues they won;’t know and wont’ care. BUT that 1% of the time when your motor does have an issue - they may in fact do their own due diligence, and even if you have a “cool” service department, BMW corporate / regional will be involved and they will figure it out and deny the claim.

My dealer said a customer blew his motor on his F80 - and that the repair was denied. Dude had to eat the cost to repair it.

From what I've read up on this (a lot ) the piggyback does not leave a trace because it doesnt overwrite anything in the ECU, but a Flash does and BMW would be able to see that.

The Flashed ECU's are more powerful for sure, but if you're under warranty and dont have $30k spare cash on hand to swap out a blown motor, i'd stick with the piggy. The JB4 is my choice because it has a "Valet mode" built into it where teens cant joyride your car. Think Ferris Bueller......LOL

[23109VC]

Originally Posted by HerkHealer

From what I've read up on this (a lot ) the piggyback does not leave a trace because it doesnt overwrite anything in the ECU, but a Flash does and BMW would be able to see that.

The Flashed ECU's are more powerful for sure, but if you're under warranty and dont have $30k spare cash on hand to swap out a blown motor, i'd stick with the piggy. The JB4 is my choice because it has a "Valet mode" built into it where teens cant joyride your car. Think Ferris Bueller......LOL

Thanks. If the Dinan really leaves "no trace" I'd buy and install it in tomorrow…. I, however, was under the impression that if the 'WORSE CASE SCENARIO" happened and my engine had issues - and it needed a new motor under warranty (I'm under CPO for 3 more years) that the dealer would start digging ..or they might not be digging but a regional rep would pull more data and even if my dealer was "cool"… that someone higher up the ladder would eventually be able to see readings that while "not the tune" would be "circumstantial evidence" of the tune - and they would deny it.

Whether they see the tune or they see "boost increased", "fuel increased"..etc… then they can infer that a tune / piggyback did it - and then deny your claim.

I'd be curious if anyone here has had a Dinan tune or other piggyback - ahd motor issues - pulled the piggyback off - and then had a motor replacement done under warranty? Someone on the M3/M4/M2/M5 or the other general forums must have had this happen to someone… while motor issues are rare..even on stock cars it happens…and even if the tune had nothing to do with it - if the tune is "there" and they "see" it..and they then fuck you over and deny the claim - that would suck.

Thanks to anyone else who has some insight on this issue.

[2022M550i]

"Whether they see the tune or they see "boost increased", "fuel increased"..etc… then they can infer that a tune / piggyback did it - and then deny your claim."

I would imagine they can see this data. You should ask Dinan…. They will know for sure.

[Joe-BMW33]

Fortunately, there really isn't a great sample of your scenario and may not be one at all. The reality is that our engines are very reliable from a catastrophic failure perspective. It just doesn't happen much if at all while under warranty. The piggy backs are so mild that there is no way they are going to be the cause of an engine replacement. I'd argue that even the custom, BM3's etc ECU aggressive tunes aren't pushing the N63TU2/3 over the edge. Will they shorten the life from say 200k mikes to 150k miles? Impossible to tell at the moment and none of us will have our cars to compile data anyway.

But I hear what you are asking. Could they find piggyback evidence while under warranty and use it against you in the event of an engine failure? It's my understanding that nothing is logged with the Dinan. All the parameters are tweaked post ECU instructions.

For what it's worth, I've taken my car to the dealer 3-4 times for warranty work. I've never removed the V2 piggyback. If I lost oil pressure and broke down, I'd have it towed to my Dinan shop, they would remove the V2 and then a tow to the dealer. But I would have to highly suspect my engine was gone. Something like replacing turbo coolant lines a few months ago where I knew they would have their heads in my engine, nope, and it's not like they noted it on my account.

As I mentioned, I was someone who chose Dinan because of the warranty a year ago and if I did it again, I don't think I'd be as paranoid about going with something else, even a custom ECU flash.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by Joe-BMW33

Fortunately, there really isn't a great sample of your scenario and may not be one at all. The reality is that our engines are very reliable from a catastrophic failure perspective. It just doesn't happen much if at all while under warranty. The piggy backs are so mild that there is no way they are going to be the cause of an engine replacement. I'd argue that even the custom, BM3's etc ECU aggressive tunes aren't pushing the N63TU2/3 over the edge. Will they shorten the life from say 200k mikes to 150k miles? Impossible to tell at the moment and none of us will have our cars to compile data anyway.

But I hear what you are asking. Could they find piggyback evidence while under warranty and use it against you in the event of an engine failure? It's my understanding that nothing is logged with the Dinan. All the parameters are tweaked post ECU instructions.

For what it's worth, I've taken my car to the dealer 3-4 times for warranty work. I've never removed the V2 piggyback. If I lost oil pressure and broke down, I'd have it towed to my Dinan shop, they would remove the V2 and then a tow to the dealer. But I would have to highly suspect my engine was gone. Something like replacing turbo coolant lines a few months ago where I knew they would have their heads in my engine, nope, and it's not like they noted it on my account.

As I mentioned, I was someone who chose Dinan because of the warranty a year ago and if I did it again, I don't think I'd be as paranoid about going with something else, even a custom ECU flash.

I know you've done all the homework so interested to get your reaction to this. The shop I talked to about the exhaust is a BMW only shop. He was a Dinan dealer at one point, but gave it up because the market here just isn't big enough to consistently support it. His opinion was that he wouldn't use a piggyback. He said on his own cars he would do (and I'm blanking on correct lingo here) a regular tune where they actually make changes is the computer. He was adamant that if done right it would not contribute to problems or an engine failure. He was totally up front about it's getting flagged at the dealer. He said the dealer will be cool about little things but a catastrophic failure would definitely be a denied claim. He basically said the tune isn't going to cause the damage, but if a freak thing happened, the tune would screw the warranty regardless.

If Dinan warranty matched with the CPO, I think I would do the Dinan stage 1 tune this year. Since they don't, and my factory warranty is up this fall, I'm leaning toward doing the axle back exhaust this year and reevaluating the tune and how much longer I'll have the car next year.

[Joe-BMW33]

Originally Posted by NGT2

I know you've done all the homework so interested to get your reaction to this. The shop I talked to about the exhaust is a BMW only shop. He was a Dinan dealer at one point, but gave it up because the market here just isn't big enough to consistently support it. His opinion was that he wouldn't use a piggyback. He said on his own cars he would do (and I'm blanking on correct lingo here) a regular tune where they actually make changes is the computer. He was adamant that if done right it would not contribute to problems or an engine failure. He was totally up front about it's getting flagged at the dealer. He said the dealer will be cool about little things but a catastrophic failure would definitely be a denied claim. He basically said the tune isn't going to cause the damage, but if a freak thing happened, the tune would screw the warranty regardless.

If Dinan warranty matched with the CPO, I think I would do the Dinan stage 1 tune this year. Since they don't, and my factory warranty is up this fall, I'm leaning toward doing the axle back exhaust this year and reevaluating the tune and how much longer I'll have the car next year.

I agree with everything he told you. I'm fine with my 60-70 hp bump by the piggy back, but it wasn't cheap and in hindsight for all the statements I've made already, I'd go with a custom ECU ("computer") tune. I paid a lot of money for a 9 month warranty which is what I had left on the factory. I'm now in CPO. All this said, whether I like it or not, I could tow it to the Dinan shop and remove without a trace in the very unlikely event I have a catastrophic engine failure. It's easy to say it will never happen when it hasn't, both by me and your guy. I didn't see the part where he said a piggy back is traceable after being removed, so I'll assume he confirmed this. Probably not being helpful, but yes, I agree with your guy.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by Joe-BMW33

I agree with everything he told you. I'm fine with my 60-70 hp bump by the piggy back, but it wasn't cheap and in hindsight for all the statements I've made already, I'd go with a custom ECU ("computer") tune. I paid a lot of money for a 9 month warranty which is what I had left on the factory. I'm now in CPO. All this said, whether I like it or not, I could tow it to the Dinan shop and remove without a trace in the very unlikely event I have a catastrophic engine failure. It's easy to say it will never happen when it hasn't, both by me and your guy. I didn't see the part where he said a piggy back is traceable after being removed, so I'll assume he confirmed this. Probably not being helpful, but yes, I agree with your guy.

That actually is helpful.

And to clarify - he didn't comment at all on the dealer seeing piggyback tunes. I may have implied that on accident. He was talking about the ECU.

I have definitely read elsewhere that if they look hard enough, they will find evidence of the piggyback. Which makes sense. But I don't know that for a fact.

I have also read, and this would make sense given what the guy I talked to said, that dealers used to have some discretion on flagging a tune. But now apparently it's not up to them, and it gets flagged automatically when they are running any diagnostic or updates on the car. Again, makes sense but I don't know that to be a fact.

[Joe-BMW33]

Originally Posted by NGT2

That actually is helpful.

And to clarify - he didn't comment at all on the dealer seeing piggyback tunes. I may have implied that on accident. He was talking about the ECU.

I have definitely read elsewhere that if they look hard enough, they will find evidence of the piggyback. Which makes sense. But I don't know that for a fact.

I have also read, and this would make sense given what the guy I talked to said, that dealers used to have some discretion on flagging a tune. But now apparently it's not up to them, and it gets flagged automatically when they are running any diagnostic or updates on the car. Again, makes sense but I don't know that to be a fact.

Yeah, I was just confirming he didn't say the piggy back was traceable. Like he said, dealers aren't going out of their way to put a scarlet letter on you for having a tune. I'm actually curious if any of the techs that have had their head under my hood even noticed mine. It was installed very nice and clean.

[PPMKING]

Piggybacks are marketed as untraceable, but we're being naive or in denial if we think BMW doesn't data log the car operations regardless if stock parameters were changed or not. It comes across like BMW is not aware of piggybacks lol. Would they pull data logs? As mentioned earlier, probably depends on what the repair is. Injectors, sensors, fuel pump? Probably be fixed no issues. Engine replacement? I would think so. Why would anyone logically think BMW would just pay $30k without pulling data logs to determine the engine failure? Increased boost, timing - easy for BMW to point to a tune.

That being said, piggyback tunes, including Dinan are not known to cause major engine failure based on anecdotal evidence from forums.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by PPMKING

Piggybacks are marketed as untraceable, but we're being naive or in denial if we think BMW doesn't data log the car operations regardless if stock parameters were changed or not. It comes across like BMW is not aware of piggybacks lol. Would they pull data logs? As mentioned earlier, probably depends on what the repair is. Injectors, sensors, fuel pump? Probably be fixed no issues. Engine replacement? I would think so. Why would anyone logically think BMW would just pay $30k without pulling data logs to determine the engine failure? Increased boost, timing - easy for BMW to point to a tune.

That being said, piggyback tunes, including Dinan are not known to cause major engine failure based on anecdotal evidence from forums.

It's absolutely in the tune manufacturers' best interests to make sure their product doesn't cause an engine failure. If that was a regular occurrence, or even something like 10-15% occurrence, it would become hard for them to market. Especially with competition.

But of course the premise of this whole conversation is "yeah but what if I'm THE guy it happens to?"

Anecdotally, I had the chance to buy a 2016 535i before I settled on my '18 540. I probably would have bought it, but I found out through talking to the tech that it'd just had its engine replaced upon trade in. It only had around 50k miles on it. They said it had a rod knocking and no one figured it out until after the trade occurred. I have no clue if that car was ever tuned, but it shows that catastrophes do happen, even on relatively low mileage engines.

I think I'd take the risk on the engine failure, after my warranty is up. I have lots of time, but I'm thinking I could pocket the cash I'd spend on the warranty and use that for the run of the mill repair that ultimately comes up. No reason to pay for extended CPO if you're getting an ECU tune.

[PPMKING]

Originally Posted by NGT2

It's absolutely in the tune manufacturers' best interests to make sure their product doesn't cause an engine failure. If that was a regular occurrence, or even something like 10-15% occurrence, it would become hard for them to market. Especially with competition.

But of course the premise of this whole conversation is "yeah but what if I'm THE guy it happens to?"

Anecdotally, I had the chance to buy a 2016 535i before I settled on my '18 540. I probably would have bought it, but I found out through talking to the tech that it'd just had its engine replaced upon trade in. It only had around 50k miles on it. They said it had a rod knocking and no one figured it out until after the trade occurred. I have no clue if that car was ever tuned, but it shows that catastrophes do happen, even on relatively low mileage engines.

I think I'd take the risk on the engine failure, after my warranty is up. I have lots of time, but I'm thinking I could pocket the cash I'd spend on the warranty and use that for the run of the mill repair that ultimately comes up. No reason to pay for extended CPO if you're getting an ECU tune.

I agree with your sentiment. I also plan to tune in the near future.

[Kriz2fer]

I wouldn’t be modding or tuning a v8 bmw with 50k. Just to risky. I only buy euro cars brand new and even then I feel sketchy tuning them. Problem is you don’t know how hard the car was driven and that tune could be the last straw for the engine at 50k. Think of the guy who buys my lease at 30k when I turn it in. Perfect maintenance records but repeated draggy runs. Took it to the drags strip multiple times, Lots of highway pulls etc

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by Kriz2fer

I wouldn’t be modding or tuning a v8 bmw with 50k. Just to risky. I only buy euro cars brand new and even then I feel sketchy tuning them. Problem is you don’t know how hard the car was driven and that tune could be the last straw for the engine at 50k. Think of the guy who buys my lease at 30k when I turn it in. Perfect maintenance records but repeated draggy runs. Took it to the drags strip multiple times, Lots of highway pulls etc

I wouldn't buy one with 50k on it. Or probably 30k. Only way I think I would is knowing I'd own it for a year or so, just for the novelty and satisfaction of having driven one for a while. Because by the time I can afford one new, they probably won't exist. This is the main reason I went with a 540. B58 seems reliable and felt like chances are the guy that had a lease on a 540 Luxury Line wasn't drag racing.

[Joe-BMW33]

Originally Posted by PPMKING

Piggybacks are marketed as untraceable, but we're being naive or in denial if we think BMW doesn't data log the car operations regardless if stock parameters were changed or not. It comes across like BMW is not aware of piggybacks lol. Would they pull data logs? As mentioned earlier, probably depends on what the repair is. Injectors, sensors, fuel pump? Probably be fixed no issues. Engine replacement? I would think so. Why would anyone logically think BMW would just pay $30k without pulling data logs to determine the engine failure? Increased boost, timing - easy for BMW to point to a tune.

That being said, piggyback tunes, including Dinan are not known to cause major engine failure based on anecdotal evidence from forums.

I guess the million dollar question is what are these data logs and where do they reside and what do they contain? You'd think this question would be simple enough to answer or for the piggy back manufacturer to figure out.

[Joe-BMW33]

Originally Posted by NGT2

It's absolutely in the tune manufacturers' best interests to make sure their product doesn't cause an engine failure. If that was a regular occurrence, or even something like 10-15% occurrence, it would become hard for them to market. Especially with competition.

But of course the premise of this whole conversation is "yeah but what if I'm THE guy it happens to?"

Anecdotally, I had the chance to buy a 2016 535i before I settled on my '18 540. I probably would have bought it, but I found out through talking to the tech that it'd just had its engine replaced upon trade in. It only had around 50k miles on it. They said it had a rod knocking and no one figured it out until after the trade occurred. I have no clue if that car was ever tuned, but it shows that catastrophes do happen, even on relatively low mileage engines.

I think I'd take the risk on the engine failure, after my warranty is up. I have lots of time, but I'm thinking I could pocket the cash I'd spend on the warranty and use that for the run of the mill repair that ultimately comes up. No reason to pay for extended CPO if you're getting an ECU tune.

I'll be buying another two years of CPO at the end of this year. There's a lot that could go wrong with these cars that isn't related to internal engine related combustion failures.

That said, another school of thought I've seen (not mine) is if you bought a third party extended warranty, you don't have to bring it to the dealer for repair as they aren't footing the bill. You could bring it to your trusted Indy who has zero motivation to report your tune to the third party company. Now would the third party company send out a forensic specialist for $30k claim, you would think so.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by Joe-BMW33

I'll be buying another two years of CPO at the end of this year. There's a lot that could go wrong with these cars that isn't related to internal engine related combustion failures.

That said, another school of thought I've seen (not mine) is if you bought a third party extended warranty, you don't have to bring it to the dealer for repair as they aren't footing the bill. You could bring it to your trusted Indy who has zero motivation to report your tune to the third party company. Now would the third party company send out a forensic specialist for $30k claim, you would think so.

Right. Another good point. I've also thought about looking into more specific warranties. For example, a warranty that covers all the electronics but not the mechanics. In my experience, things like electronics fail more often in the first 5-7 years than engine parts, outside of something like a thermostat. The two major warranty repairs done on my Tahoe were the touchscreen and stereo and the thermostat. Neither was cheap, but the screen and stereo was the biggest one.

Great point on the third party. I'll ask that Indy shop what their experience is with claims on different warranties and how a tune affects their claims for repairs.

[PPMKING]

I would suspect at minimum they're storing data outside normal stock conditions somewhere. So although the piggyback is not detected since it does not change stock tables, it doesn't hide the affects of using it - tricking the computer to increase boost, timing above stock values.

[PPMKING]

Originally Posted by NGT2

Right. Another good point. I've also thought about looking into more specific warranties. For example, a warranty that covers all the electronics but not the mechanics. In my experience, things like electronics fail more often in the first 5-7 years than engine parts, outside of something like a thermostat. The two major warranty repairs done on my Tahoe were the touchscreen and stereo and the thermostat. Neither was cheap, but the screen and stereo was the biggest one.

Great point on the third party. I'll ask that Indy shop what their experience is with claims on different warranties and how a tune affects their claims for repairs.

From my experience with bmw and 3rd party warranties, they don't go out of their way to point out a tune since they're not paying. All BMW cares about is will the 3rd party pay the claim. They'll just point out the parts failure to the 3rd party. Now the 3rd party warranty will send an adjuster out to inspect the car for major warranty claim. So obviously if you have a piggyback, you should remove it before taking car to dealer or indy.

The only exception to what I said above may be the extended warranty offered by BMW. Then I can see them having access to all info from dealer.