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      08-15-2018, 10:31 AM   #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by are0lies View Post
Manafort's defense begins at 0:59.
Now that's funny!
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      08-15-2018, 11:25 AM   #332
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I don't see Trump as a complete fool. He's not a dumb person. I don't see him risking any more political capital by pardoning a person convicted of federal crimes
Too late by a long shot. Trump pardons are fuel to fire up the base, not tactical or strategic moves.

https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardo...t-donald-trump
How does Jack Johnson's posthumous pardon "fire up Trump's base??"
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      08-15-2018, 11:27 AM   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea-Tac View Post
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Originally Posted by wdb View Post
Too late by a long shot. Trump pardons are fuel to fire up the base, not tactical or strategic moves.

https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardo...t-donald-trump
Good point. I think we are approaching a confluence of forces, political, legal, etc. and pressures are building. Just like with the loss of support in his farming base over tariffs his support may wane by more of his blue collar supporters if Manafort is pardoned.

Another thing to consider, is that Trump, to date, has refused to release his tax information. If Manafort is convicted of banking and tax violations and subsequently is pardoned perhaps more attention will be directed at Trump for his refusal to release his tax information.
Trump has refused to release his tax returns because he has nothing to gain from it. Romney released his, and his opponents used it to paint him as an out-of-touch rich dude, as they have with every other conservative who released the info. I don't blame him.
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      08-15-2018, 11:31 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
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Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
He didn't refuse to file his taxes with IRS. IRS has seen all his tax returns.
The IRS also had all of Manaforts returns. Clearly the IRS is not the end-all be-all when it comes to determining if someone is up to some funny business with their income and taxes.

My personal opinion is that Trump's returns and financial records likely show a host of shady dealings, some of which may not be legal. I think his financials read much like Manafort's. I have no proof of this, mind you. I cant back it up with anything other than a gut feeling. I think the sorts of people and associates that Trump surrounds himself with (Manafort, Gates, Stone, etc.) have all enjoyed a long history of skirting the system to their own personal enrichment.
Pelosi...
Reid...
Feinstein...
Hastings...

And all the others who entered congress with nothing and left as millionaires...
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      08-15-2018, 11:33 AM   #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Trump has refused to release his tax returns because he has nothing to gain from it. Romney released his, and his opponents used it to paint him as an out-of-touch rich dude, as they have with every other conservative who released the info. I don't blame him.
Because you think his non-supporters need his tax returns to realize he is an out-of-touch rich white dude?

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      08-15-2018, 11:43 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Not much of a defense for manafort.

Manafort lawyers rest fraud case without calling witnesses http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45187523
Its somewhat unusual that no defense witnesses were tendered. It happens. Juries frequently discount much of the testimony witnesses offer. Sometime legitimately, sometimes because they just don't believe or like the witness. What they can't discount is the mountain of paper evidence that was offered in this trial. Paper sticks to the walls, especially government paper, and rarely is it refuted. This is all well and good, right? But the thing that bothers me is not knowing why the defense rested so easily. Their defense wasn't spectacular by any means. Almost seemed laid back. This just doesn't sit right with me.
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      08-15-2018, 11:45 AM   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea-Tac View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Not much of a defense for manafort.

Manafort lawyers rest fraud case without calling witnesses http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45187523
Its somewhat unusual that no defense witnesses were tendered. It happens. Juries frequently discount much of the testimony witnesses offer. Sometime legitimately, sometimes because they just don't believe or like the witness. What they can't discount is the mountain of paper evidence that was offered in this trial. Paper sticks to the walls, especially government paper, and rarely is it refuted. This is all well and good, right? But the thing that bothers me is not knowing why the defense rested so easily. Their defense wasn't spectacular by any means. Almost seemed laid back. This just doesn't sit right with me.
Counting on a pardon? But then we get into constitutional crisis territory.
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      08-15-2018, 12:03 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Counting on a pardon? But then we get into constitutional crisis territory.
Certainly, appeal will be made if jury convicts. That pushes things out most likely past the November elections. If control shifts to the left I doubt pardon. It would probably mean articles of impeachment. If control remains the same, pardon is possible. It's well within the president's power to do so.

As far as our Constitution...it can take some pretty strong hits. I think we'll be alright.
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      08-15-2018, 12:18 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Trump has refused to release his tax returns because he has nothing to gain from it. Romney released his, and his opponents used it to paint him as an out-of-touch rich dude, as they have with every other conservative who released the info. I don't blame him.
That did, in fact, happen to Romney and it kicked him squarely in the tail.

Still, there is no law that requires the president to make public their tax and financial records. There is precedent that some have followed, but nothing constitutionally mandated.

We don't know what's in those records. And, its very possible we'll never know. What is surprising is that someone hasn't leaked the tax and financial information considering how seive like Washington is. On balance, Trump has been releasing financial records for years in support of various regulatory filing requirements for his business operations.
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      08-15-2018, 02:00 PM   #340
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Sometimes, the defense doesn't think the prosecution has proven the case to whatever means necessary for conviction, so can just rest.
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      08-15-2018, 04:34 PM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea-Tac View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Trump has refused to release his tax returns because he has nothing to gain from it. Romney released his, and his opponents used it to paint him as an out-of-touch rich dude, as they have with every other conservative who released the info. I don't blame him.
That did, in fact, happen to Romney and it kicked him squarely in the tail.

Still, there is no law that requires the president to make public their tax and financial records. There is precedent that some have followed, but nothing constitutionally mandated.

We don't know what's in those records. And, its very possible we'll never know. What is surprising is that someone hasn't leaked the tax and financial information considering how seive like Washington is. On balance, Trump has been releasing financial records for years in support of various regulatory filing requirements for his business operations.
Seems like someone did leak a couple years of his returns, last year?
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      08-15-2018, 04:41 PM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea-Tac View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Not much of a defense for manafort.

Manafort lawyers rest fraud case without calling witnesses http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45187523
Its somewhat unusual that no defense witnesses were tendered. It happens. Juries frequently discount much of the testimony witnesses offer. Sometime legitimately, sometimes because they just don't believe or like the witness. What they can't discount is the mountain of paper evidence that was offered in this trial. Paper sticks to the walls, especially government paper, and rarely is it refuted. This is all well and good, right? But the thing that bothers me is not knowing why the defense rested so easily. Their defense wasn't spectacular by any means. Almost seemed laid back. This just doesn't sit right with me.
I thought that was odd as well. But perhaps they thought that the witnesses could only make matters worse?
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      08-15-2018, 05:31 PM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea-Tac View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Not much of a defense for manafort.

Manafort lawyers rest fraud case without calling witnesses http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45187523
Its somewhat unusual that no defense witnesses were tendered. It happens. Juries frequently discount much of the testimony witnesses offer. Sometime legitimately, sometimes because they just don't believe or like the witness. What they can't discount is the mountain of paper evidence that was offered in this trial. Paper sticks to the walls, especially government paper, and rarely is it refuted. This is all well and good, right? But the thing that bothers me is not knowing why the defense rested so easily. Their defense wasn't spectacular by any means. Almost seemed laid back. This just doesn't sit right with me.
I thought that was odd as well. But perhaps they thought that the witnesses could only make matters worse?
The main witness, of course, being Manafort.
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      08-15-2018, 05:34 PM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I thought that was odd as well. But perhaps they thought that the witnesses could only make matters worse?


That is a strong possibility. This is especially so knowing that witness cross examination could be brutal and/or detrimental to their case. Then again, maybe they couldn't find any witnesses.
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      08-15-2018, 05:36 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
The main witness, of course, being Manafort.
Defense wouldn't allow that. To big of a chance for the defendant to incriminate himself.
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      08-15-2018, 05:37 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Seems like someone did leak a couple years of his returns, last year?
I sort of have a hazy memory of that...maybe someone will enlighten us.
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      08-15-2018, 05:46 PM   #347
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So far at least 7 FBI officials have been fired for misconduct relating to Trump.
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      08-15-2018, 05:48 PM   #348
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When will Al Shaprton be charged with tax evasion?
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      08-15-2018, 05:56 PM   #349
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When will Al Shaprton be charged with tax evasion?
Investigate. What do you know?
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      08-15-2018, 06:07 PM   #350
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Quote:
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When will Al Shaprton be charged with tax evasion?
I see you're still clinging to the "Other people cheat on taxes so why is Manafort being picked on" rationale.
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      08-15-2018, 08:55 PM   #351
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I see you're still clinging to the "Other people cheat on taxes so why is Manafort being picked on" rationale.
Selective prosecution is Unamerican, protecting good standing swamp members and goin after people that helped elect Trump. A political hit job!

Also the Podesta brothers need to be prosecuted!
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      08-15-2018, 09:06 PM   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Sometimes, the defense doesn't think the prosecution has proven the case to whatever means necessary for conviction, so can just rest.
The judge was a dick throughout the testimony too. Probably would have done the same to the defense. By stopping now only the prosecution gets to be seen in that light.

At the end of the day they only need one juror.
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