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      10-28-2020, 04:20 PM   #111
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Germany is re-entering a 1 month partial lockdown on Monday. Bars and restaurants closed again, work from home, no public events, gatherings less than 10. Hospitals have been filling back up.

So same is coming back home in the good ol U S of A in a few weeks. But that won’t go over well since people back home are less tolerant of making sacrifices to benefit others. Not looking forward to what that looks like.
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      10-28-2020, 04:24 PM   #112
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Why don't you make a sacrifice and stop driving a vehicle forever, since people do die from car crashes?

We were all lied to about the severity of this thing, and now no one wants to admit they were scared/over reacted.

Sick/unhealthy/really old folks die every year from complications. This virus is not a super bug; it is not deadly to normal people.

STOP perpetuating the b.s. ffs.

If a lockdown for a flu bug makes good sense to you, then why not lockdowns for everything else in life that carries a .0001 risk of death?
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      10-28-2020, 04:29 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by TboneS54 View Post
Why don't you make a sacrifice and stop driving a vehicle forever, since people do die from car crashes?
Here I could. Public transportation everywhere. But not the case back home.

Anyway, hospitals here are near capacity. If they can't keep the infections down, anyone who needs medical attention is SOL. So it makes sense. We have a right to Life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness. But you can't have the other 2 without having one first.

Also look at statistics instead of making your own up. 4% of infected need hospitalization. 4% of 8000 people infected per day is 320 people needing hospital beds every day. Want to raise taxes and and build more hospitals?

And if the numbers are lower, even at 2% the area under the curve is still too high for the system to cope with. So it makes logical sense to keep the curve down. I'm no doctor, but I'm good at math
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      10-28-2020, 04:44 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
My son isn't doing his homework.

Do I:

a) call him a lazy dummy

or

b) tell him I am here if you need help with homework. There is nothing wrong with asking for help, my job as a parent is to help you. I asked for help, and your mom asked for help when we were your age.

I know where you are going with this.

"Telling me I need help is shaming!!!"

I get it. We are all sick of that, but what is important is that we separate actual shaming from being accused of shaming. #2 isn't actually shaming, it's just that people are sensitive and it's a defense mechanism. I totally get the frustration. We can't really control how other people react to us, all we can control is how we act.

When I say I can't condone shaming, I'm saying we shouldn't be telling obese people

"You are a fat POS and a burden on health care. You need to work out".
..
Your solution "Dad needs to parent his son" excludes children w/o Dads. 75% of black children are fatherless. Your solution favors white families and therefore.... you know were it ends, right?

As absurd as the above logic is, it's not unrealistic, as we observe over and over again. Yes we shouldn't be saying "fat pos" freely, but evet just "fat" is considered offensive nowadays, and probably will be ruled illegal/punishable at some point.

Disclaimer: the 75% stat is fictional, but to illustrate the point.
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      10-28-2020, 04:47 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Here I could. Public transportation everywhere.
..
People get hit by buses too. How dare you saying those deaths don't matter!
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      10-28-2020, 04:49 PM   #116
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People's inability to do math amazes me. if this thing runs rampant there is no way hospitals will keep pace, it's impossible.
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      10-28-2020, 04:54 PM   #117
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People's inability to do math amazes me. if this thing runs rampant there is no way hospitals will keep pace, it's impossible.
Actually, people's ability to do math is what prompts calls to open everything back up.
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      10-28-2020, 05:08 PM   #118
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It's actually not even the number of deaths that is the biggest issue, it's the health system being overrun. So those of you who can do math and want to stay open, please propose a plan to expand capabilities of the health system so it can cope. One that makes mathematical sense.

And ... go!
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      10-28-2020, 05:31 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
It's actually not even the number of deaths that is the biggest issue, it's the health system being overrun. So those of you who can do math and want to stay open, please propose a plan to expand capabilities of the health system so it can cope. One that makes mathematical sense.

And ... go!
Have people stay at home with cold like symptoms? Never in history did we have people flocking in massive quantities for emergent health care in a situation that was 99% recoverable. Should we seek Fauci next time we have a tooth ache? Or maybe we stop trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.

The issue is a certain “side” has turned fear into a virtue. Thoughts and posts like yours signal for the highest level, or at least buy into it.

For reference, two of my dearest friends work in hospitals, on COVID specific floors. One in California, one in Arizona. Both have noted more time without patients than with, and those admitted weren’t dire or even in fact always covid diagnosed. They simply were exhibiting symptoms similar to that of this virus.

The riddle we truly need to solve for is why we’ve allowed the hype, hysteria, misinformation or worse the false interpretation of the facts to evade what used to be common sense and have replaced it with fear mongering. It goes FAR beyond an “R” or “D” as well.
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      10-28-2020, 05:33 PM   #120
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Hospitals overrun :rofl:

Where are the homeless, dead in the street?
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      10-28-2020, 05:44 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by smyles View Post
Ok. Offer one solution. To any problem. One. Go.
My son isn't doing his homework.

Do I:

a) call him a lazy dummy

or

b) tell him I am here if you need help with homework. There is nothing wrong with asking for help, my job as a parent is to help you. I asked for help, and your mom asked for help when we were your age.

I know where you are going with this.

"Telling me I need help is shaming!!!"

I get it. We are all sick of that, but what is important is that we separate actual shaming from being accused of shaming. #2 isn't actually shaming, it's just that people are sensitive and it's a defense mechanism. I totally get the frustration. We can't really control how other people react to us, all we can control is how we act.

When I say I can't condone shaming, I'm saying we shouldn't be telling obese people

"You are a fat POS and a burden on health care. You need to work out".

That is not a discussion. That is an accusation, and a demand for action.

Instead we should be saying:

"Obesity is a risk factor for heart disease. If you want to lose weight, there are ways to do it and we/I can help."

It won't always be successful, and we could be falsely accused of shaming, but it hopefully promotes discussion more times than the other method. And at least we know in our hearts we didn't shame them.
I would choose option #2 and if he doesn't comply, I would whoop his ass... but again; I am old school and we can't do that anymore either... which is why you see things on social media like you do.

...ps... I am only 33... back in my day, when I was on the shores of Normandy...😂
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      10-28-2020, 05:52 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Health isn't just BMI. Drinking alcohol, smoking, base jumping, free climbing, driving fast, playing too much video games, getting plastic surgery, smoking weed, eating mushrooms, these are all as much a risk to your health as eating a hamburger. If people want to shame fat people, then be prepared to stfu if you are drinking a beer more than once a day, or riding a motorcycle without a helmet, or light a cigarette. We all risk our lives in some form of another, just because we choose to do it differently doesn't mean one way is necessarily more deserving of shame than the other.

In fact I would say that shame isn't really the best way to deal with people.

What if we go beyond health to shame people? Some people have already shamed people just from what state they live in. What if we start shaming based on wealth or lack thereof? Why is it okay to shame for obesity, but not something like wealth?

"Hey fat-ass, why don't you lose some weight? My health insurance rates are high because of you."
"Hey loser, why don't you get a better job? My marginal taxes rates are high because of you."

OR

"Shame on you for being fat and not caring about your health. You fat slob!"
"Shame on you for being poor and not caring about your wealth. You loser!"

Sorry, I can't condone fat shaming, just as I cannot condone shaming someone for being less wealthy. No one is perfect, and shaming someone for being less than perfect in one thing that we just happen to be better at is probably more about us trying to feed our own egos.
Obesity is a far, far greater risk than Covid. It’s not even close.

Actually, Obesity is the pandemic shielded by tolerance and acceptance. No one is fat shaming. You’re cruel if you’re the one constantly “you go boy/girl” for being “proud” of being 150lbs overweight. Everyone has a different shape, sure, but 50% of America is far beyond thick, pudgy, or could lose a few. These people are eating themselves sick and no one should be shamed for calling out facts.

Those people impact everyone with increased healthcare premiums and a general risk to public health. It’s a drain on everyone else. When events like Covid come along, these facts do worsen the impact, unnecessarily.

It’s personal responsibility to take care of yourself, but anything is on the table to fix the issue as far as I’m concerned. One would be to sack up and stop enabling these people who are clinically obese by cancelling everyone who calls them out.

Last edited by BayMoWe335; 10-28-2020 at 05:59 PM..
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      10-28-2020, 06:10 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiveohwblow View Post
Have people stay at home with cold like symptoms? Never in history did we have people flocking in massive quantities for emergent health care in a situation that was 99% recoverable. Should we seek Fauci next time we have a tooth ache? Or maybe we stop trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.

The issue is a certain “side” has turned fear into a virtue. Thoughts and posts like yours signal for the highest level, or at least buy into it.
I agree that people need to stay home when they have symptoms. Cold? Flu? Corona? Let's wait and see. Here we agree.

But with the rest we don't. Germany publishes it's number of available ICU beds, as do many EU nations. And you don't end up in one if you show up at the hospital with a minor fever.

So to simply say that it's just a tooth ache is indecorous at best.

As of Monday I will be under lockdown again. Germany had nearly 15,000 new cases yesterday, and the hospitals are filling up. Rational decisions drive the behavior of the heads of the German states. And the warning of health experts in US or elsewhere, who strangely all say the same thing by the way. As much as you and posts like yours try to make it seem political, it's not.

It's rational. There is a breaking point of the medical system, and the aim is to keep the infections below that point, while trying to stay open.

I project (just my opinion) that in the US this will also happen soon. Much like it followed the first wave in EU. Unless people take measures, which doesn't seem likely.
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      10-28-2020, 06:15 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiveohwblow View Post
Have people stay at home with cold like symptoms? Never in history did we have people flocking in massive quantities for emergent health care in a situation that was 99% recoverable. Should we seek Fauci next time we have a tooth ache? Or maybe we stop trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.

The issue is a certain "side" has turned fear into a virtue. Thoughts and posts like yours signal for the highest level, or at least buy into it.
I agree that people need to stay home when they have symptoms. Cold? Flu? Corona? Let's wait and see. Here we agree.

But with the rest we don't. Germany publishes it's number of available ICU beds, as do many EU nations. And you don't end up in one if you show up at the hospital with a minor fever.

So to simply say that it's just a tooth ache is indecorous at best.

As of Monday I will be under lockdown again. Germany had nearly 15,000 new cases yesterday, and the hospitals are filling up. Rational decisions drive the behavior of the heads of the German states. And the warning of health experts in US or elsewhere, who strangely all say the same thing by the way. As much as you and posts like yours try to make it seem political, it's not.

It's rational. There is a breaking point of the medical system, and the aim is to keep the infections below that point, while trying to stay open.

I project (just my opinion) that in the US this will also happen soon. Much like it followed the first wave in EU. Unless people take measures, which doesn't seem likely.
I believe you misinterpreted my intent to make it political, which I thought I made quite clear I didn't view it that way, but others have. Not sure how I missed the mark with my last paragraph, any insight may help. Or maybe, it's why you left it out.

The boots on the ground speak very differently than you are, have you by any chance sought the experiences of anyone directly in the medical field? Have you spoken to doctors, nurses and clinicians in face to face unabashed conversation? I ask because this is where I ascertained real world, non slanted factual information for me to feel informed to make my decision. After the fifth person I was well informed to draw my conclusions that I have yet to share.

We won't disagree the numbers of the breaking point, beds, hospitals and ventilators are easy. That requires little human interpretation or better yet understanding. Where the rubber meets the road is WHY people are there, should they be, and on what basis?

I'll ask this, since these with the covid are flocking hospitals, and we've seen 99% recovery, wouldn't we be logical to conclude the answer is health care and be inclined to ramp it up to levels that any and all could seek this same help? Seems the 99% cure to our current pandemic no?
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      10-28-2020, 06:36 PM   #125
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Well, the idiots are out in full force again. This thread should disappear.
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      10-28-2020, 06:43 PM   #126
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Well, the idiots are out in full force again. This thread should disappear.
Step one, call any individual or groups of individuals idiots.

Irony.

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      10-28-2020, 06:53 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiveohwblow View Post

I'll ask this, since these with the covid are flocking hospitals, and we've seen 99% recovery, wouldn't we be logical to conclude the answer is health care and be inclined to ramp it up to levels that any and all could seek this same help? Seems the 99% cure to our current pandemic no?
Completely agree. Ramp up then we can keep most everything open. But if we keep open without health care ramp up, we head towards a disaster. We either need vaccine, or capacity of the system to handle the influx of patients.
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      10-28-2020, 07:04 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
I agree that people need to stay home when they have symptoms. Cold? Flu? Corona? Let's wait and see. Here we agree.

But with the rest we don't. Germany publishes it's number of available ICU beds, as do many EU nations. And you don't end up in one if you show up at the hospital with a minor fever.

So to simply say that it's just a tooth ache is indecorous at best.

As of Monday I will be under lockdown again. Germany had nearly 15,000 new cases yesterday, and the hospitals are filling up. Rational decisions drive the behavior of the heads of the German states. And the warning of health experts in US or elsewhere, who strangely all say the same thing by the way. As much as you and posts like yours try to make it seem political, it's not.

It's rational. There is a breaking point of the medical system, and the aim is to keep the infections below that point, while trying to stay open.

I project (just my opinion) that in the US this will also happen soon. Much like it followed the first wave in EU. Unless people take measures, which doesn't seem likely.
High level, the hospitals aren't "filling up" in the US and are far better prepared than back in March. The media is in fact denying that we've made any progress whatsoever, obviously for political reasons.

Agreed we should be watching metrics like hospitalizations, but "cases" has become a pretty meaningless stat. Far, far more testing than in March and 99% are getting well at home, eating Doordash and watching Netflix.

We should also be making sure we only hospitalize when it's necessary, not just because people have Covid symptoms.
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      10-28-2020, 07:06 PM   #129
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Well, the idiots are out in full force again. This thread should disappear.
Yes, yes...it's always "idiots" when your side isn't supported. Please enlighten us. Are you a "listen to the scientists" guy?

Truth is, there are idiots on BOTH sides. Rationality always lies somewhere in the middle and the truth becomes more gray the more you reason.
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      10-28-2020, 07:12 PM   #130
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Serious question. Why such a focus on a vaccine even though we have a flu vaccine but we still get it every year? Why isn't there more focus on easy, cheap, at home testing? I don't know, but I would imagine if you could buy a pack of 30 "test strips" on Amazon for $19.99 or something and just check it at home like a blood sugar test or something it would help a lot since to me it seems a big problem with this specific virus is the a symptomatic spreading.
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      10-28-2020, 07:18 PM   #131
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If you close shit up than you need to pay people's bills, there is no other way. Our retarded government is pushing tenants NOT to pay rent which is beyond ridiculous
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      10-28-2020, 07:22 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
Serious question. Why such a focus on a vaccine even though we have a flu vaccine but we still get it every year? Why isn't there more focus on easy, cheap, at home testing? I don't know, but I would imagine if you could buy a pack of 30 "test strips" on Amazon for $19.99 or something and just check it at home like a blood sugar test or something it would help a lot since to me it seems a big problem with this specific virus is the a symptomatic spreading.
If you had a choice: guaranteed flow of grants (=$$), or market competition and associated risks, what would you prefer?

The fact is, the business case for covid vaccine is not as apparent as it would seem. With flu, you have a pretty much guaranteed continuation; covid may be gone once and for all (not as a virus, but as a global threat worth risking investing $$$$).

So the focus is primarily political, something any side can clutch to and make a condition for whatever objective they may have.

Last edited by smyles; 10-29-2020 at 07:24 AM..
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