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View Poll Results: Will Donald Trump be Impeached or will this blowback on Biden
Orange Trump bad. Trump gone. 62 31.31%
Trump Trump-umphant. 67 33.84%
Inclusive 14 7.07%
Biden C4'd to oblivion. 58 29.29%
Biden grows in strength and gets shot in the arm for nomination. 8 4.04%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 198. You may not vote on this poll

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      09-26-2019, 10:05 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Captain Blood View Post
After doing a little research, not only will Trump get impeached the house, I see a great danger for him being convicted in the Senate. The Democrats looking into this will have greater information in these areas than I do, and I have found some pretty damning stuff.

Remember this name:
Marie Yovanovitch

Allegations she was soft on corruption by Donald Trump Junior, John Solomon, & Rudy Giuliani are the actual opposite of what happened. And apparently Giuliani has been in Ukraine the last year trying to get the Ukrainians to open investigation against anti-trump figures. I doubt this was done without trumps knowledge.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/07...ats-diplomacy/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...itical-target/
seems to be a recurring theme here...

anti trumpers say "trump will be impeached this time. theres no way he gets away with _____"

______ gets investigated and turns out to be not as serious and not an impeachable offense as they initially said it would be, or an outright non story.

anti trumpers find something else they think is a bombshell and go "trump will be impeached this time. theres no way he gets away with _____"
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      09-26-2019, 10:19 AM   #178
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I heard from some people who heard about something, in relation to some other people talking with some Ukranians about something.

IMPEACH.
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      09-26-2019, 10:22 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by kyoo View Post
i love how the trump supporters are saying oh trump did some minor thing, now he will be impeached /sar! as if it is an equivalent action.

let's be real here - we know what trump was doing. if you don't think that's quid pro quo, you are blind. notice how none of the trump supporters are actually saying anything substantive about the event at hand.
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Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
I heard from some people who heard about something, in relation to some other people talking with some Ukranians about something.

IMPEACH.
lmao! are you ok? that someone was the president - he admitted what he did. the question isn't whether he talked to the ukrainian president or not, the question is whether what he did was quid pro quo or not. sorry, i know it's hard to keep up.

simple question - do you think what he did was quid pro quo or not? quid pro quo does not mean you explicitly say do this for me, i do that for you - no one is that dumb anymore.
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      09-26-2019, 10:28 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by kyoo View Post
lmao! are you ok? that someone was the president - he admitted what he did. the question isn't whether he talked to the ukrainian president or not, the question is whether what he did was quid pro quo or not. sorry, i know it's hard to keep up.

simple question - do you think what he did was quid pro quo or not? quid pro quo does not mean you explicitly say do this for me, i do that for you - no one is that dumb anymore.
based on the memo that was put out, no

based on what some guy heard other random guys talking with other random guys about or what his cousin's sister in law's 3rd cousin twice removed's best friend from 1st grade told him about how trump told ukraine to fuck biden up or else, still no.
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      09-26-2019, 10:30 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by kyoo View Post
lmao! are you ok? that someone was the president - he admitted what he did. the question isn't whether he talked to the ukrainian president or not, the question is whether what he did was quid pro quo or not. sorry, i know it's hard to keep up.

simple question - do you think what he did was quid pro quo or not? quid pro quo does not mean you explicitly say do this for me, i do that for you - no one is that dumb anymore.
Of course it wasn't, at no time in the call did Trump relate looking into Biden and his son with any sort of special favors or rewards. The call lasted 30 minutes, he mentioned Biden once, and the Ukraine president even said he never felt pressured etc. Just another bogus fake story, I don't know how many times the radical Dims can fall for this stuff.
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      09-26-2019, 10:40 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
seems to be a recurring theme here...

anti trumpers say "trump will be impeached this time. theres no way he gets away with _____"

______ gets investigated and turns out to be not as serious and not an impeachable offense as they initially said it would be, or an outright non story.

anti trumpers find something else they think is a bombshell and go "trump will be impeached this time. theres no way he gets away with _____"

Did you read the articles? Trumps abuse of power vis a vis the Ukraine is systematic. The phone call asking for a "favor" is NOT an isolated incident. Trump has been working this government (and presumably the Porschenko government) for dirt on Clinton (via the unfounded "crowdstrike" allegation) and now Biden.

I think things are going to get really hot for Trump. His following of conspiracy theories may be his undoing.
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      09-26-2019, 10:52 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
based on the memo that was put out, no
ok. your sarcastic misrepresentation of how the whistleblower came out - save it to circle jerk with trump supporters, it's really not worth the time to type out

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Of course it wasn't, at no time in the call did Trump relate looking into Biden and his son with any sort of special favors or rewards. The call lasted 30 minutes, he mentioned Biden once, and the Ukraine president even said he never felt pressured etc.
thank you. let's discuss this a little like adults.

1) the ukrainian president will not say he felt pressured, whether or not he actually did, agree?

2) the comments of looking into biden come up after holding aid, and after the ukrainian president says he wants to buy more missiles - genuinely asking, this has zero implication to you that that's something he wants to "make a deal" on as far as using it as a bargaining chip?

3) why do you think trump asked giuliani to get on the biden stuff, a private citizen and his personal lawyer, vs. through the actual state dept? all i can say is, it makes zero sense to have a private lawyer do state department investigations, and if it were a D in the office that tried to have their personal lawyer look into someone, people here would be going NUTS about it.


i'm trying to ascertain here what would and wouldn't be pressuring someone to do something for you, personally. if your employee said to you, you've got a beautiful car out there in the lot, would be a shame if someone keyed it. then later asked if he could get a raise - does that count for you?

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      09-26-2019, 10:54 AM   #184
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      09-26-2019, 11:02 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyoo View Post

1) the ukrainian president will not say he felt pressured, whether or not he actually did, agree?

2) the comments of looking into biden come up after holding aid, and after the ukrainian president says he wants to buy more missiles - genuinely asking, this has zero implication to you that that's something he wants to "make a deal" on as far as using it as a bargaining chip?

3) why do you think trump asked giuliani to get on the biden stuff, a private citizen and his personal lawyer, vs. through the actual state dept?
Things may change regarding my opinion based on any new facts coming out, but here is where I currently stand:

1) Agreed, I don't think the Ukranian president is going say he felt pressured, even if he did.

2) This has the 'appearance' of a possible quid pro quo, but there is no evidence of that, at least not yet. This phone call is essentially the exact same thing as the Biden issue. Biden aided in the US govt. withholding something from the Ukraine to get a prosecutor fired. This is a fact. Ancillary is that that prosecutor was also looking at his son. This has the 'appearance' of quid prop quo, but there are no facts to support it. Both appear fishy, but at this time, there is nothing to prove that quid pro quo happened, just the quid part.

3) He is obviously trying to find dirt on Biden through the Ukraine. Sketch for sure, but not illegal. It is literally the same thing Obama did in 2012 and Clinton did in 2016. Neither of those were illegal, either - although just like this, they were slimy as hell.

Bottom line - should Trump have said what he said? Probably not, it looks terrible and isn't really a good precedent to set - but I just don't see this being an impeachable offense. I don't think most of the American public is going to feel that way, either and I certainly don't think there is enough evidence (i.e. none) to get the Senate to vote guilty in an impeachment hearing.
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      09-26-2019, 11:04 AM   #186
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Oh - and another thing - why do we keep calling this a "Whistleblower Complaint". The person that filed the complaint was not in direct involvement in any way. He just heard that others were and that they said something.

This isn't being a whistleblower, this is just being a gossiper.

Good grief.
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      09-26-2019, 11:07 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Things may change regarding my opinion based on any new facts coming out, but here is where I currently stand:

1) Agreed, I don't think the Ukranian president is going to feel pressured, even if he did.

2) This has the 'appearance' of a possible quid pro quo, but there is no evidence of that, at least not yet. This phone call is essentially the exact same thing as the Biden issue. Biden aided in the US govt. withholding something from the Ukraine to get a prosecutor fired. This is a fact. Ancillary is that that prosecutor was also looking at his some. This has the 'appearance' of quid prop quo, but there are no facts to support it. Both appear fishy, but at this time, there is nothing to prove that quid pro quo happened, just the quid part.

3) He is obviously trying to find dirt on Biden through the Ukraine. Sketch for sure, but not illegal. It is literally the same thing Obama did in 2012 and Clinton did in 2016. Neither of those were illegal, either - although just like this, they were slimy as hell.

Bottom line - should Trump have said what he said? Probably not, it looks terrible and isn't really a good precedent to set - but I just don't see this being an impeachable offense. I don't think most of the American public is going to feel that way, either and I certainly don't think there is enough evidence (i.e. none) to get the Senate to vote guilty in an impeachment hearing.
i agree almost 100%, aside from that this is essentially the same as what biden did. just as a refresher, biden was acting on behalf of the US embassy, the G7, the IMF, and as mentioned, all of the West basically wanted that prosecutor gone. Biden was the mouthpiece for it. that the prosecutor claimed the year prior he would investigate the company where biden's son had a seat on - squeaky clean? definitely not.

my concern really is what defines quid pro quo here. prosecutors are dealing with this all the time as far as people don't actually say, "do this or else." that has become way more subtle in today's day - sending vague messages, what have you.

agree though, i dont think it will be an impeachable offense.
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      09-26-2019, 11:09 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Oh - and another thing - why do we keep calling this a "Whistleblower Complaint". The person that filed the complaint was not in direct involvement in any way. He just heard that others were and that they said something.

This isn't being a whistleblower, this is just being a gossiper.

Good grief.
i think it is called a whistleblower complaint because the person who filed the complaint did it under whistleblower protection. that his or her complaints ended up being credibble/true, is really the matter at hand.
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      09-26-2019, 11:10 AM   #189
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I know this is an impeachment thread, but I think pretty much everyone agrees that Trump isn't going to be removed from office due to the Senate majority. I'm actually more curious whether people on here believe he didn't commit a "high crime or misdemeanor".
There's no legal definition for HC&M.

Impeachment is a political process.

There's a certain irony about all this which is that it's okay to use US Aid as a stick to pressure other countries into voting our way at the UN which may result in the deaths of thousands of civilians but not okay if it involves a political opponent.
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      09-26-2019, 11:10 AM   #190
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i agree almost 100%, aside from that this is essentially the same as what biden did. just as a refresher, biden was acting on behalf of the US embassy, the G7, the IMF, and as mentioned, all of the West basically wanted that prosecutor gone. Biden was the mouthpiece for it. that the prosecutor claimed the year prior he would investigate the company where biden's son had a seat on - squeaky clean? definitely not.

my concern really is what defines quid pro quo here. prosecutors are dealing with this all the time as far as people don't actually say, "do this or else." that has become way more subtle in today's day - sending vague messages, what have you.

agree though, i dont think it will be an impeachable offense.
Don't say that! The Trumpsters on here don't like to hear established, credible facts.
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      09-26-2019, 11:14 AM   #191
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I am frankly glad someone is going after the Biden's. They used gov't positions to prosper a la Clintons which is much worse than normal slimy corrupt activities.

Wasn't at all sad to see some of those caught up in the Mueller investigation get hammered for corruption when it was something other than being trapped into perjury.

Watched some of the kangaroo court today - it's amazing that so many supposedly educated smart people can let their politics and emotions drive them to ignore what they are supposed to be doing. But there are those Trump obsessed on here that I'm sure are being paid for something other than putting out 1000's of posts on here. (you know who you are )

nothing useful above... just a rant.
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      09-26-2019, 11:24 AM   #192
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i think it is called a whistleblower complaint because the person who filed the complaint did it under whistleblower protection. that his or her complaints ended up being credibble/true, is really the matter at hand.
But that's my point - there are no whistleblower protections for someone reporting hearsay via another agency they don't even work for.

It's absurd.

It's like me saying, I heard something about a company that I don't work for from someone that does work for them. I want whistleblower protections from my company so I can tattle on that other company.

It doesn't work like that.

I agree it ultimately is germane to the issues at hand, but the narrative that he is a whistleblower is crap and doesn't help keep this discussion within the media and politicians where it should be.
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      09-26-2019, 11:38 AM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
2) This has the 'appearance' of a possible quid pro quo, but there is no evidence of that, at least not yet. This phone call is essentially the exact same thing as the Biden issue. Biden aided in the US govt. withholding something from the Ukraine to get a prosecutor fired. This is a fact. Ancillary is that that prosecutor was also looking at his son. This has the 'appearance' of quid prop quo, but there are no facts to support it. Both appear fishy, but at this time, there is nothing to prove that quid pro quo happened, just the quid part.
I see a couple of differences between the Biden episode and the Trump episode. First, Biden was acting in accordance with US government policy, and carrying out the desires of the state. The US government (among others) wanted Shokin fired. Second, nobody tried to hide, disguise, remove evidence, or otherwise cover up what Biden did.
Quote:
3) He is obviously trying to find dirt on Biden through the Ukraine. Sketch for sure, but not illegal. It is literally the same thing Obama did in 2012 and Clinton did in 2016. Neither of those were illegal, either - although just like this, they were slimy as hell.
Agree on the slimy part but hey, politics. Disagree on this being literally the same thing, in that the Clinton campaign did not do anything with any foreign government.
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      09-26-2019, 11:39 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by kyoo View Post
i agree almost 100%, aside from that this is essentially the same as what biden did. just as a refresher, biden was acting on behalf of the US embassy, the G7, the IMF, and as mentioned, all of the West basically wanted that prosecutor gone. Biden was the mouthpiece for it. that the prosecutor claimed the year prior he would investigate the company where biden's son had a seat on - squeaky clean? definitely not.

my concern really is what defines quid pro quo here. prosecutors are dealing with this all the time as far as people don't actually say, "do this or else." that has become way more subtle in today's day - sending vague messages, what have you.

agree though, i dont think it will be an impeachable offense.
you can say that all you want, but at the end of the day, we do not know a few things about it. Was Biden the one pushing for this or was he being told to do this from someone else? Was Biden pushing for this because he thought it was the right thing to do, or was he trying to protect his son? Currently, whether there was anything there or not, it has the appearance of him acting based on his conflict of interest, which is why he shouldnt have been involved in the first place. Him getting involved with a situation that he had a personal conflict of interest created this.

Should there be an investigation into it? probably not, but if you think we should investigate this Trump thing, then we need to also investigate the Biden thing. They are directly related since Trump wanted info on Biden regarding this.

As for the quid pro quo, again, there is nothing that suggests this. If we get to see the official transcripts, maybe there is something there, but unless it gets leaked, we wont see those. The "whistleblower" complaint is nothing more than heresay, which is not evidence and isnt used in a court of law. Its only used in the court of public opinion, and many seem to confuse the two.
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      09-26-2019, 11:39 AM   #195
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Here's the reality IMO, although we all know trump will probably not be impeached, EVEN if he was impeached, removed from office, etc etc etc. All it would have done is further strengthened the republican party. Trust me 2020 would end up being a bloodbath because the silent majority, and the many American's who LOVE trump would have that much more hate toward the democratic party. The moderates would see it as a clown show and further destroy the dems. Thats my honest opinion
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      09-26-2019, 11:52 AM   #196
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Dems don’t want President Pence, and they don’t want Pence to have a running start at the election as the incumbent. So they are not serious about removing Trump from office via impeachment, unless he wins re-election. They are serious about besmirching him to the point of steering the election toward their nominee; and they don’t seem to care if Biden becomes roadkill in the process.

They will investigate his shoelaces if it furthers the politics. They may turn up some offense(s) along the way, but that really seems to me to be secondary to the election goals.

Meanwhile, the well is poisoned and nothing of substance, barring a real emergency, will get done in Congress before the general election next year. For this, if there turns out to be no impeachable offenses, the Dems ought to be thrown out of office. It is, in that case, a gross misuse of the political system and processes to further their party goals, at the expense of the nation.

And I’m not suggesting the R’s would be any better if the shoes were on the other feet. I’d disgusted by where we are, politically, as a nation.
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      09-26-2019, 11:54 AM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
you can say that all you want, but at the end of the day, we do not know a few things about it. Was Biden the one pushing for this or was he being told to do this from someone else? Was Biden pushing for this because he thought it was the right thing to do, or was he trying to protect his son? Currently, whether there was anything there or not, it has the appearance of him acting based on his conflict of interest, which is why he shouldnt have been involved in the first place. Him getting involved with a situation that he had a personal conflict of interest created this.

Should there be an investigation into it? probably not, but if you think we should investigate this Trump thing, then we need to also investigate the Biden thing. They are directly related since Trump wanted info on Biden regarding this.

As for the quid pro quo, again, there is nothing that suggests this. If we get to see the official transcripts, maybe there is something there, but unless it gets leaked, we wont see those. The "whistleblower" complaint is nothing more than heresay, which is not evidence and isnt used in a court of law. Its only used in the court of public opinion, and many seem to confuse the two.
he was acting on behalf of the embassy.. i already linked sources about it, it is not me saying it. i'm just relaying the facts of what was going on at the time. we all love a juicy democratic conspiracy theory here but there were so many pushing for shokin's firing at the time that this just doesn't really hold any water. he completely, 100%, did NOT act out on his own, as some kind of rogue politician fighting to get a prosecutor fired when other governments, foreign bodies wanted him to stay.

i agree 100% though - the potential conflict of interest here, he should have recused himself from being the mouthpiece for it, totally. i have no disillusions about that. honestly, what would have made more sense is for Biden to fight to keep shokin in place, if and only if he agreed not to investigate burisma. THAT is the kind of quid pro quo you should be looking for. This is at worst, more of an interests-align kind of thing than the former.

you are referring to the whistleblower complaint as heresay, except trump admitted to doing what the complaint alleged he did, so I'm not sure what you're referring to as far as it being heresay - we're beyond that now, as trump has acknowledged that the conversation took place, just disagreeing on the significance of it.
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      09-26-2019, 12:01 PM   #198
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Let it unfold. The higher and more shrill the voices propagating Hoax 2.0, the greater the embarrassment of failure will be upon them.

This will cost the Democrats across the board in state and national elections during the upcoming cycles.

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