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View Poll Results: What was the result of the testimony of Mr. Mueller?
Meh...nothing new. SSDD. 24 38.10%
Damning for the democrats. 21 33.33%
Damning for the republicans. 2 3.17%
Damning for Mr. Trump 7 11.11%
Dumpster Fire for the entire republic. 20 31.75%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

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      07-26-2019, 01:11 PM   #67
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Oh really? This took me about 30 seconds to find from the WSJ (not an OpEd):

"The Justice Department’s internal watchdog, close to concluding its inquiry into steps the FBI took in its probe of Trump campaign associates and Russia beginning in 2016, is homing in on whether the agency continued surveillance of one associate despite questions about a key source’s credibility, according to people familiar with the matter.

"In the closely watched probe of the counterintelligence inquiry that later morphed into special counsel Robert Mueller’s examination of Russia’s interference in the 2016 election, the department’s inspector general has been asking witnesses about the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s treatment of information in a dossier provided by Christopher Steele, a former British intelligence officer.

"The findings of Mr. Steele, whose work was financed by Democrats to investigate President Trump’s ties to Russia, was included in an application for a warrant from a secret court to eavesdrop on Carter Page, who briefly served on the Trump campaign as a foreign-policy adviser. The surveillance of Mr. Page, who has denied wrongdoing and hasn’t been charged with any crime, began in October 2016, shortly after he left the campaign. The warrant was renewed three times through much of 2017.

* * *

"Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz’s team has been asking why the FBI continued to cite Mr. Steele as a credible source in the renewal applications, the people said. In particular, they asked about a news report cited extensively in the applications that appeared to bolster Mr. Steele’s credibility. The report said U.S. intelligence officials were investigating allegations similar to those Mr. Steele had raised."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/watchdo...s&page=1&pos=3

And from a WSJ OpEd that lends some perspective:

"This is what should concern us: that quite apart from illegal leaks, which are themselves a big problem, certain intelligence-agency actions were undertaken deliberately for domestic political purposes. Example: It is absurd at this point to pretend that James Comey’s original intervention in the Hillary Clinton email matter, based on intercepted Russian intelligence, was not such an action. It relieved the Obama Justice Department of the delicate problem of having to defend politically a decision not to prosecute Mrs. Clinton, by pretending that an independent institution (in reality the FBI and its chief worked for Mr. Obama) had made the call.

"Mr. Comey would never have waited until three weeks before the Democratic Convention if he were seriously entertaining the possibility that Mrs. Clinton might be charged. The Russian intelligence reportedly consisted of prima facie evidence of Justice Department corruption of the Hillary email case, yet Mr. Comey apparently discounted its import even as he reasoned that this supposedly misleading intelligence somehow required his extraordinary intervention to clear Mrs. Clinton. A subsequent inspector general’s report found Mr. Comey’s intervention improper, but everything about the secret motive behind it remains hidden in a “classified appendix.”

"Understand: The alternative was not to charge Mrs. Clinton. It was to let the administration own the decision as it should have.

"This is the clearest example of intelligence functions being opportunistically used for domestic political purposes, and to my mind the one from which all else flows. But there are others:

"It is distinctly possible (not certain) that the FBI, in its dealings with Christopher Steele, deliberately sought to assist his campaign to get the media to report the unsupported accusations contained in his dossier.

"It is distinctly possible (not certain) that a decision by Mr. Comey and his intelligence colleagues to brief President-elect Trump on the existence of the Steele dossier but to withhold certain information (such as that the dossier was a concoction of the Clinton campaign and the Democratic Party) was a set-up. It was meant to create an opportunity for the media to report on the dossier’s existence but also to deprive Mr. Trump of the opportunity to defend himself by revealing its origins.

"About one matter no uncertainty exists: Obama intelligence chieftains John Brennan and James Clapper, after they left office, went immediately on the airwaves to promote the story that Mr. Trump was a Russian agent.

"That these actions took place is not a theory and whether they involved a conspiracy remains to be seen. What you might really be waiting for is certain mainstream news organs to acknowledge that these phenomena are real and that the questions they raise are legitimate. So am I.

"More real reporting about the Steele dossier was contained in a single tweet from the New York Times’s Maggie Haberman, after its Democratic authorship was revealed, than in the 19 months since. She said: “Folks involved in funding this lied about it, and with sanctimony, for a year.”

"The Washington Post’s Bob Woodward caused a stir on Fox News recently when he said the intelligence community’s adoption of the Steele dossier was “highly questionable” and “needs to be investigated.” That need was evident two years ago.

"The near-silence of the media on the secret appendix to the report on Mr. Comey and the Hillary Clinton case, even though it was mentioned 17 times in the public report, is just baffling—unless you assume a reluctance to pursue leads that might tend to discredit the very same sources the press had come to depend on to legitimize the Trump-Russia collusion story.

"Two years ago, I wrote: “Democrats wanted an independent counsel investigation of Russia’s election meddling. They believed it would lead to evidence of, or at least keep alive the story of, Trump collusion. They may be unpleasantly surprised where it really leads.”

"The questions about Mr. Trump and his competence, ethics and desire for closer relations with Russia are not more important than getting to the bottom of the intelligence community’s role in the 2016 election. Because in their minds celebrity triumphs over all, don’t expect TV pundits ever to repent of their collusion hysteria. That catharsis is not coming. Look elsewhere for the truth."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/motive-...s&page=1&pos=4
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      07-26-2019, 01:12 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
None of those organizations have reported that the FBI was "weaponized" against trump, other than a few editorial pieces. Quite the opposite, from what's been described in the Mueller report and those news organizations correlates the fact Trump wants to "weaponize" said FBI against political opponents. How many time did he tweet things about Sessions? Mueller? Do you still believe in "lock her up"?

And you understand the "Steele dossier" was started by Republicans?
Uhhh...

*The original opo-research was funded by people from The Washington Free Beacon.
*When it was clear Trump was going to be the nominee, and not Bush, they handed the little they had accumulated to the dnc. Some say sold it to them, but whatever.
*The dnc then hired Fusion GPS.
*Fusion GPS later went on to hire Christopher Steele.
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      07-26-2019, 01:29 PM   #69
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And this from NPR, a distinctly left-leaning news organization:
"A hot, newly released document offers a sliver of new understanding to the Russia imbroglio — but has not dislodged warring partisans from their long-term deadlock about evidence and surveillance in the case.

What is it?
The FBI has released an application to conduct surveillance of an American under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. It's heavily redacted but still significant — these are some of the most secret papers in official Washington and are very seldom ever seen by people without specialized security clearances.

The dispute over the document boils down to this: Did the Justice Department and the FBI violate the rights of a onetime junior foreign policy aide to the Donald Trump campaign, Carter Page?

* * *

This is where Trump's supporters blow the whistle. Many Republicans argue the DOJ and FBI officials appear to have deliberately concealed from the FISA judge that "Source 1" wasn't just someone with an ax to grind — he was being paid by one of the two major-party campaigns in the United States.

And more basically, some critics also argue, the allegations in the dossier were not solid enough to merit being included in this request for surveillance. The FBI has substantiated some of them, but the details remain classified as to what it has verified and what it has debunked.

* * *

Now that portions are public, it is clear that the FISA application does not name Trump or Clinton or Fusion GPS or Simpson or Steele nor detail the political background."
https://www.npr.org/2018/07/23/63134...-fisa-document

Okay, I'm done. I don't normally engage on this level but you're full of it.
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Last edited by CigarPundit; 07-26-2019 at 02:22 PM.. Reason: Forgot to add the NPR source link.
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      07-26-2019, 01:39 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
I really don't watch or read msnbc or the NYT to often. But they are both more credible than most pulp fiction sources that support Trump.

Other credible sources whose content is at odds with Cigar:
Wall Street Journal
Dallas Morning News
NPR
WAPO
BBC
Bloomberg
AP
Reuters
Etc
Etc
Meh - your source comparison is a bit thin:

Wall Street Journal: Leans pretty far to the right
Dallas Morning News: Leans somewhat left
NPR: Leans heavily to the left
WAPO: Leans somewhat to the right
BBC: Leans heavily to the left
Bloomberg: Strong non-biased source
AP: Strong non-biased source
Reuters: Strong non-biased source
The Dallas morning news is to the left?
I have not read it daily in three or four years, but that paper was as Republican establishment as you could get. The others I've listed tend not to use loaded language reporting news. They report news. They tend not to have emotional investment in what they are reporting.
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      07-26-2019, 01:45 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
The Dallas morning news is to the left?
I have not read it daily in three or four years, but that paper was as Republican establishment as you could get. The others I've listed tend not to use loaded language reporting news. They report news. They tend not to have emotional investment in what they are reporting.
No emotional investment...
2 years of HE COLLUDED.

OH MY.

That's it for me. Lol.
Oh my.
Wow.
Geez.
Really?!
Yep, he said it.
Reeeee!

Yes, cp, he is full of it.


Out.
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      07-26-2019, 01:47 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
The Dallas morning news is to the left?
I have not read it daily in three or four years, but that paper was as Republican establishment as you could get. The others I've listed tend not to use loaded language reporting news. They report news. They tend not to have emotional investment in what they are reporting.
If you haven’t read it in four years, how do you know it’s “content” is “at odds” with what I said? As I suspected, you are engaging in a tactic: rattle off a bunch of news organizations and then just make a claim about them.
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      07-26-2019, 01:50 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
No emotional investment...
2 years of HE COLLUDED.

OH MY.

...
Care to explain the communications from Don Jr to Russians that were offering dirt on Clinton, and subsequent meeting? How was that not a conspiracy with a foreign power?
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      07-26-2019, 01:54 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
None of those organizations have reported that the FBI was "weaponized" against trump, other than a few editorial pieces. Quite the opposite, from what's been described in the Mueller report and those news organizations correlates the fact Trump wants to "weaponize" said FBI against political opponents. How many time did he tweet things about Sessions? Mueller? Do you still believe in "lock her up"?

And you understand the "Steele dossier" was started by Republicans?
Uhhh...

*The original opo-research was funded by people from The Washington Free Beacon.
*When it was clear Trump was going to be the nominee, and not Bush, they handed the little they had accumulated to the dnc. Some say sold it to them, but whatever.
*The dnc then hired Fusion GPS.
*Fusion GPS later went on to hire Christopher Steele.
Source?
Have you ever noticed how I Almost always provide a link when I post something like that?
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      07-26-2019, 01:56 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
The Dallas morning news is to the left?
I have not read it daily in three or four years, but that paper was as Republican establishment as you could get. The others I've listed tend not to use loaded language reporting news. They report news. They tend not to have emotional investment in what they are reporting.
If you haven't read it in four years, how do you know it's "content" is "at odds" with what I said? As I suspected, you are engaging in a tactic: rattle off a bunch of news organizations and then just make a claim about them.
Incorrect And I noticed you have not listed a source yet.
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      07-26-2019, 02:00 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy View Post
Care to explain the communications from Don Jr to Russians that were offering dirt on Clinton, and subsequent meeting? How was that not a conspiracy with a foreign power?
Ask Mueller, I mean Weisman.
Also ask them who put that gal in their circle to begin with.

It's as if you people don't know what the heck has been found or anything. MSNBC and CNN needs their wool back.

So great.
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      07-26-2019, 02:04 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy View Post
Care to explain the communications from Don Jr to Russians that were offering dirt on Clinton, and subsequent meeting? How was that not a conspiracy with a foreign power?
Ask Mueller, I mean Weisman.
Also ask them who put that gal in their circle to begin with.

It's as if you people don't know what the heck has been found or anything. MSNBC and CNN needs their wool back.

So great.
Amen for sourceless conjecture!!

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      07-26-2019, 02:05 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Source?
Have you ever noticed how I Almost always provide a link when I post something like that?
I've noticed your links don't mean much. Just paste fumes trying to make some asinine accusation against someone.

You've got internet, look it up. Don't be lazy when it comes to actually trying to learn something.

You're so fun to bounce around.
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      07-26-2019, 02:06 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Source?
Have you ever noticed how I Almost always provide a link when I post something like that?
I've noticed your links don't mean much. Just paste fumes trying to make some asinine accusation against someone.

You've got internet, look it up. Don't be lazy when it comes to actually trying to learn something.
If you remember noticing that, then you're too lazy to simply click on the link. That's your problem, not mine.
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      07-26-2019, 02:10 PM   #80
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"I know you are but what am I"

I'll give you this. You can take a pummeling.
Adorable.
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      07-26-2019, 02:48 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post


"I know you are but what am I"

I'll give you this. You can take a pummeling.
Adorable.
So it's come down to you starting a little flame war, you calling me lazy, then accusing me of sinking to a lower level.
And you don't seem man enough to quote me directly. Keep up the good work?
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      07-26-2019, 03:06 PM   #82
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So many conspiracies and so little time.
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      07-26-2019, 03:18 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Many of us watched the testimony today and while we may disagree politically, I hope we can all agree that the ability to hold hearings in public view is a strength of our republic. That said, what are your feelings on the hearing, the testimony of Mr. Mueller, the questioning from both sides and the management of the hearing by Mr. Nadler?

Don't hold back!! (Like I need to ask that of THIS group!! )

Edit: In the spirit of many in government, you can vote for more than one answer!!
Thanks for correctly calling it a Republic, not a democracy in the poll. And yes, dumpster fire. They have far more pressing things to do, but apparently do not get that. Ultimately calling the R's a winner on this one.

Anybody see the Pelosi, Nadler, Schiff, Cummings presser afterwards, and her chart? Ouch.
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      07-26-2019, 03:59 PM   #84
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I saw this on Apple News. It pretty much sums up what I thought.

http://www.businessinsider.com/doj-v...stimony-2019-7

The Russian government interfered in the 2016 US election in a "sweeping and systematic" fashion to propel Donald Trump to the presidency. The Trump campaign welcomed the intrusion. Trump and his associates tried to weaponize their political positions for financial gain. After assuming office, Trump significantly obstructed the investigation into Russia's meddling on nearly a dozen occasions. He ordered the White House counsel to fire the man investigating him. He urged witnesses not to cooperate with prosecutors. And contrary to his repeated assertions, he was not "totally and completely exonerated" of wrongdoing.

The former special counsel Robert Mueller testified to these findings before Congress this week, but none of it was actually news.

Elie Honig, a former prosecutor from the Southern District of New York, told INSIDER that "the debate people are having right now is about style rather than substance."

"Let's take away the superficiality of whether he looked assured, or whether he hesitated, or looked too old, or if he fired off his answers quickly enough," he said. "Why should that matter? Look at what he said."
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      07-26-2019, 04:11 PM   #85
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Not true at all. There are circumstances where you can have a charge and conviction for Obstruction of Justice under federal law with no underlying crime committed or charged.

Obstruction of justice is defined as "Interference with the orderly administration of law and justice" and is found in 18 U S C 1501 - 1521. Although it can vary slightly by statute, generally these are elements required for conviction:

1: There was a pending federal judicial proceeding
2: The defendant knew of the proceeding, and
3: The defendant had the corrupt intent to interfere with or attempted to interfere with the proceeding.

Nowhere does it state an underlying crime need be committed.

Let me give you an example: You are the Vice President of the United States (see what I did there ). The Feds suspect you of committing a crime. They launch an investigation. Now, we all know that not all investigations result in charges because not all investigations result in crimes being uncovered. So lets say this is one of those cases.

You KNOW for sure you did not commit the crime you are being investigated for. However, you know that if the Feds dig deep enough, they are going to likely uncover some potentially highly embarrassing and potentially damaging information about you that is not criminal in nature (maybe you had a bunch of affairs with porn stars you don't want people knowing about because you are a bible banger). So, you decide to obstruct their investigation by tampering with witnesses , destroying some documents, and trying to get the head of the investigation fired.

You have just committed Obstruction of Justice under federal law even though no underlying crime was committed or charged.
Yup - you are correct and an obstruction of justice charge could be levied. But the odds of a prosecutor taking it up is damn slim. Even if you could get a prosecutor to file the charges, the chance of a guilty verdict in court would be nearly zero. Hence the comment below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
Yeah, being guilty of the underlying crime is not technically legally necessary for obstruction, but it’s pretty tough to get a conviction when the target is not guilty for a number of reasons: (1) it’s a chicken shit process crime; (2) it’s almost impossible to prove mens rea (intent) when the Target honestly (and correctly) believes that he is not guilty of the crime he is being investigated for. That’s why you don’t see prosecutions in such situations unless they are politically motivated.
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      07-26-2019, 04:53 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
I saw this on Apple News. It pretty much sums up what I thought.

http://www.businessinsider.com/doj-v...stimony-2019-7

The Russian government interfered in the 2016 US election in a "sweeping and systematic" fashion to propel Donald Trump to the presidency. The Trump campaign welcomed the intrusion. Trump and his associates tried to weaponize their political positions for financial gain. After assuming office, Trump significantly obstructed the investigation into Russia's meddling on nearly a dozen occasions. He ordered the White House counsel to fire the man investigating him. He urged witnesses not to cooperate with prosecutors. And contrary to his repeated assertions, he was not "totally and completely exonerated" of wrongdoing.

The former special counsel Robert Mueller testified to these findings before Congress this week, but none of it was actually news.

Elie Honig, a former prosecutor from the Southern District of New York, told INSIDER that "the debate people are having right now is about style rather than substance."

"Let's take away the superficiality of whether he looked assured, or whether he hesitated, or looked too old, or if he fired off his answers quickly enough," he said. "Why should that matter? Look at what he said."
Excellent summation.
I still can't believe the party that found the Lewinski caper so despicable, turns the other cheek on this stuff.
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      07-26-2019, 05:07 PM   #87
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Sincere question: Do you guys really believe that “sweeping and systematic” Russian interference “propelled” Trump to win the election? Because there is literally no evidence whatsoever that Russian interference of any kind influenced a single vote, much less that it was the proximate cause of Trump’s electoral victory.
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      07-26-2019, 05:10 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishbimmer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
I saw this on Apple News. It pretty much sums up what I thought.

http://www.businessinsider.com/doj-v...stimony-2019-7

The Russian government interfered in the 2016 US election in a "sweeping and systematic" fashion to propel Donald Trump to the presidency. The Trump campaign welcomed the intrusion. Trump and his associates tried to weaponize their political positions for financial gain. After assuming office, Trump significantly obstructed the investigation into Russia's meddling on nearly a dozen occasions. He ordered the White House counsel to fire the man investigating him. He urged witnesses not to cooperate with prosecutors. And contrary to his repeated assertions, he was not "totally and completely exonerated" of wrongdoing.

The former special counsel Robert Mueller testified to these findings before Congress this week, but none of it was actually news.

Elie Honig, a former prosecutor from the Southern District of New York, told INSIDER that "the debate people are having right now is about style rather than substance."

"Let's take away the superficiality of whether he looked assured, or whether he hesitated, or looked too old, or if he fired off his answers quickly enough," he said. "Why should that matter? Look at what he said."
Excellent summation.
I still can't believe the party that found the Lewinski caper so despicable, turns the other cheek on this stuff.
Details matter and the details are not analogous between the two. Basically Clinton was impeached for lying under oath about an affair he had with an extremely, comparatively, young subordinate. Trump was never disposed, because he's a pathological liar, and it appears that his written statements provide a lot of wiggle room.

People forget that Trump et al. really didn't expect to win the campaign and their actions support it. They were oblivious to what was going on and amateurish.

BTW, exonerated. like collusion, is not a legal term used by prosecutors. It's fluff.

It was clear that members around Trump would not decline the receipt of information on Hillary. That's different from soliciting and coordinating with others to obtain information.
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