[BwoodBMW]

mmmmm.... I'm all in on this thing. First time I'd want the Alpina over the M version of a BMW sedan.

[goj]

Originally Posted by Tracus

I think that the numbers are really great! It's a diesel!
Diesel is about torque. Keep in kind the mileage you get from the same tank and you will be thrilled. It is a wonderful machine.
Plus Alpina was always tastefully done.

Look I think the engine is great! The worlds fastest diesel comment is more a function of the top speed limiter than it is the engine hp though.

The alpina has its own value prop I understand. Again I was expecting hp to be a notch up from the M550d when I read the title is all I'm saying

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by goj

Look I think the engine is great! The worlds fastest diesel comment is more a function of the top speed limiter than it is the engine hp though.

The alpina has its own value prop I understand. Again I was expecting hp to be a notch up from the M550d when I read the title is all I'm saying

The M550d and D5S are quite different underneath in a number of aspects.

Who knows...maybe there's more yet to come from all 3 sides.

[Biorin]

Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93

Eh...I know of a couple E90 335d's that have 500+ whp and 700+ wtq....

LOVE that green though!!

Was just about to tag you in this...!

[AGAV13]

That color is gorgeous.

[Brake_Late]

Originally Posted by VMRWheels

Would love to drive that wagon!

That's one nice typewriter ! Wagon yesssss

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by goj

Look I think the engine is great! The worlds fastest diesel comment is more a function of the top speed limiter than it is the engine hp though.

The alpina has its own value prop I understand. Again I was expecting hp to be a notch up from the M550d when I read the title is all I'm saying

Got your point.
Still, a great machine. I would love one.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

590 lb-ft + 8 gears = monster instant torque and in-gear acceleration (and with 35+ MPG, 100% better gas mileage and range than the M5 for example). HP is only good for VMax and this Alpina has plenty, unless you want a 200 mph machine ;-).

Sorry, but HP is not only good for VMax. It suggests you don't understand the underlying physics. There is a reason it's not that fast is because the peak crank torque is not that important in this application (passenger car acceleration). Power reflects the actual capability for acceleration much better. The petrol engine revs higher and will use shorter ratios to get more effective torque at the wheels where it actually matters.

This car is slower than an E92 M3 which only has 295 lb-ft.

An F10 M5 will destroy this car on the road. This car is almost dead even with a G30 540i...

[Nivarox]

It's a cool car but it's a diesel sorry and diesels seem to get more punishment and scapegoat as though they do nothing but pollute the environment .It may be a speculation or not but diesel cars might be banned from entering major cities so if holds a truth then diesel cars should have no future.
It wouldn't replace my G30 however cool and greatly modified it is

[ForTheLoveOf///M]

Okay well, gonna sell my kidney. Alpina you did it again, what a stunning car

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by chris719

Sorry, but HP is not only good for VMax. It suggests you don't understand the underlying physics. There is a reason it's not that fast is because the peak crank torque is not that important in this application (passenger car acceleration). Power reflects the actual capability for acceleration much better. The petrol engine revs higher and will use shorter ratios to get more effective torque at the wheels where it actually matters.

This car is slower than an E92 M3 which only has 295 lb-ft.

An F10 M5 will destroy this car on the road. This car is almost dead even with a G30 540i...

Speed is the engine's spin rate (RPM)
Torque is how much twisting force the engine generates at its shaft for a particular speed of rotation (Torque = Force x Perpendicular distance -> Nm)
Higher torque means better acceleration. The more available torque at lower speed, the better. If you want an engine to spin faster, you have to give it more torque. HP is a product of the torque.

Since you are mentioning a passenger car (not even a sports car - no trunk, no radio, no excessive weight, etc.) I believe that this car is stunning. A passenger car has 4-5 seats, a trunk, etc.
A gas vehicle needs to stay all the time at high Revolution to achieve a certain torque, while the diesel has the torque available instantly and effortless. At around 5000 RPM, torque and HP are equal. At any RPM below 5000, the value of torque is greater than the value of HP; Above 5000 RPM, the value of HP is higher.

Gas car stays sharp and nimble as long as you are on top of the game. It requires permanent attention and peak time with proper gear choice. -> more gas, less fuel economy.
Diesel has a linear torque curve, it's power line is pretty much stable and available anytime you need it -> better fuel economy.

You get more energy from 1 liter of diesel and diesel gets a hell of a lot better mileage than gas cars.
Just add more weight and the gas car will loose the game, while diesel will run pretty much the same. If you need acceleration, the torque is the one that will give it to you.

Sorry, Power DOES NOT reflect the capability for acceleration much better.
Power is related to the top (higher) speed while the torque is related to the Acceleration. The more Torque your engine generates, the more quickly your car accelerates.

we can't ignore the advantages of a diesel. If you drive a lot, diesel should be the first choice. Is relaxed, powerful and extremely efficient engine, that will also have a better longevity than gas engines.

PS
M3 and G30 are two different animals.

[morellomax]

I'm a fan of big diesels - have had 535d's and also an A8 with 370hp/800Nm - but this actually leaves me cold. 3 problems for Alpina:
- the G30 is already quite a supple car from the factory with a much better ride and handling compromise than the F10, so there is less need to migrate to Alpina in the first place;
- most of their target market can get the 540d or M550d, which are both already fast beyond the point where anyone can say "I'm getting it for the sense of effortless acceleration rather than for the on-paper performance figures";
- the fuel economy is terrible: 530d xdrive gets 25% better figures than this. I love BMW's 3 litre diesel lump but what is the point of it if its CO2 emissions/fuel-density-adjusted mpg figures are basically the same as a 540i ?

[morellomax]

"Power is related to the top (higher) speed while the torque is related to the Acceleration. The more Torque your engine generates, the more quickly your car accelerates"

Simply not true. Acceleration results from the application of power. Power from an ICE engine is a function of torque and angular velocity.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Speed is the engine's spin rate (RPM)
Torque is how much twisting force the engine generates at its shaft for a particular speed of rotation (Torque = Force x Perpendicular distance -> Nm)
Higher torque means better acceleration. The more available torque at lower speed, the better. If you want an engine to spin faster, you have to give it more torque. HP is a product of the torque.

Since you are mentioning a passenger car (not even a sports car - no trunk, no radio, no excessive weight, etc.) I believe that this car is stunning. A passenger car has 4-5 seats, a trunk, etc.
A gas vehicle needs to stay all the time at high Revolution to achieve a certain torque, while the diesel has the torque available instantly and effortless. At around 5000 RPM, torque and HP are equal. At any RPM below 5000, the value of torque is greater than the value of HP; Above 5000 RPM, the value of HP is higher.

Gas car stays sharp and nimble as long as you are on top of the game. It requires permanent attention and peak time with proper gear choice. -> more gas, less fuel economy.
Diesel has a linear torque curve, it's power line is pretty much stable and available anytime you need it -> better fuel economy.

You get more energy from 1 liter of diesel and diesel gets a hell of a lot better mileage than gas cars.
Just add more weight and the gas car will loose the game, while diesel will run pretty much the same. If you need acceleration, the torque is the one that will give it to you.

Sorry, Power DOES NOT reflect the capability for acceleration much better.
Power is related to the top (higher) speed while the torque is related to the Acceleration. The more Torque your engine generates, the more quickly your car accelerates.

we can't ignore the advantages of a diesel. If you drive a lot, diesel should be the first choice. Is relaxed, powerful and extremely efficient engine, that will also have a better longevity than gas engines.

PS
M3 and G30 are two different animals.

You should understand the concepts before you comment. A water wheel can generate tons of torque but its not very helpful due to it's angular velocity being so low. The torque that moves your car is the torque at the wheels anyway, not the crankshaft. There are many explanations and tutorials available online that have correct information. Hint: gearing

[chris719]

Originally Posted by morellomax

"Power is related to the top (higher) speed while the torque is related to the Acceleration. The more Torque your engine generates, the more quickly your car accelerates"

Simply not true. Acceleration results from the application of power. Power from an ICE engine is a function of torque and angular velocity.

Thank you!

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by morellomax

the fuel economy is terrible: 530d xdrive gets 25% better figures than this. I love BMW's 3 litre diesel lump but what is the point of it if its CO2 emissions/fuel-density-adjusted mpg figures are basically the same as a 540i ?

Well the Alpina is measured using a different test cycle and a theoretical NEDC figure is displayed with an additional penalty incurred during the transition period to RDE.

It's like comparing fruits to pork right now. Not even an apples to oranges hypothesis is reasonable. This car is FASTER and QUICKER than the M550i, has variable AWD similar to the F90, yet will very much be an economical cruiser if you want it to be.

[Hashtag_M_Rated]

That wagon is so bad ass!!!!

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by ron_jeremy

What is the difference between this and the M550d? Similar numbers, great looking touring

That is a fair question.

At least if it refers to the previous M550d, which was also a tri-turbo setup (and not with 4 turbo chargers as the new M550d).

I wonder whether Alpina simply took the previous engine (a slightly modified N57), or whether they removed a turbo charger from the new M550d (B57). The figures are almost identical to the old M550d, just the torque figure is somewhat higher with 800 Nm compared to 740.

I also don't think they designed new pistons for this engine. They sometimes do that for the petrol models, but for the Diesel ones that does not seem to make much sense to me.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by morellomax

"Power is related to the top (higher) speed while the torque is related to the Acceleration. The more Torque your engine generates, the more quickly your car accelerates"

Simply not true. Acceleration results from the application of power. Power from an ICE engine is a function of torque and angular velocity.

Power is what matters for pure speed. Torque gets you up to speed, power keeps you there.

Why don’t Formula 1 cars have torque? The goal of Formula 1 is to not accelerate. You want to be at your highest top speed possible all of the time, so Formula 1 cars are designed to maintain high speeds and thus stay in the high rpms where all of the power is. You do need torque to accelerate quickly after slowing down for a corner, but since Formula 1 cars take corners at most cars’ top speeds they don’t need a lot.

Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that exactly matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be double at 4000 rpm. Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252 rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same.

Torque alone determines acceleration. That's not an opinion, it is mathematical certainty, and a basic principle of physics. HP is simply the mathematical product of torque and RPM.


Please have a read.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/werzmjy/

I am out of this argument.

[morellomax]

On the most generous interpretation, you are confusing torque at the crankshaft with torque at the wheel.

[fndrsn]

I'm at the point now where I basically want everything Alpina is making, diesels included

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by morellomax

On the most generous interpretation, you are confusing torque at the crankshaft with torque at the wheel.

HP is not measured by an instrument, is man made. A car’s performance is tested by measuring its torque by using a dynamometer. The measure of an engine’s performance is torque. Horsepower is an additional number that’s attained by multiplying the torque by the RPMs.
I know what you mean, you choose HP because your HP represent the total torque that gets delivered to the wheel (raw power plus RPM). Gearing magnifies torque and makes the difference.
So,
If the design objective is performance instead of low fuel consumption, the diesel engine can perform adequately.
BMW M550d xDrive 3.0 liter turbo diesel 6-cyl engine 0-60 mph in 4.7 sec.
BMW 535i xDrive 3.0 liter turbo 6-cyl gas 0-60 mph in 5.7 seconds.

See Audi winning LeMans with diesel please.