[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Yeah, not going to agree with you there, in terms of the M2 copying the 1M formula or the M2 not being developed with passion by BMW's engineers. The 1M was created in less than a year - the development of the M2 has considerable time, effort, and money invested by BMW so that it will be better than the 1M in every measurable way.

Again, we all know you love your 1M. And that you loved your 135is. And hate the 2er - but facts will be facts my man. It's the same song you hear from the M3 crowd every time a new one comes out - the E46 was the best...no, the s65 is the best...blah blah blah. Performance-wise, neither of those cars can touch the F80/82. It's not even close (5 seconds difference on the Top Gear track between E92 and F80, just for starters)...and it is like that every generation. The performance gets better and better each time.

It will be the same with the M2 for objective criteria. Subjective criteria is a fun debate, but you're making grand conclusions about a car that no one on this board has driven.

Go back out to the garage and wipe the 1M with a baby diaper, and I am sure you will feel better.

there are a few types of drivers....some who just think 'latest and greatest' and others who evaluate based on how a car feels. Based on your assessment and disappointment in the 235 as compared to the 135 I thought if anyone you would understand what I mean when I say the latest is definitely not necessarily the greatest or most enjoyable!

Engineers spending time on a project tells me the company is exceedingly involved in this car's development and that's not necessarily a good thing!

I don't baby my 1M...it's my DD. I drive the hell out of it every day!

[IndyMike]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Again, it depends on a whole host of factors - it's not as simple as you seem to make it. Remember, BMW put the 1M together very quickly, which likely led to it being MT only - not some vague connection to subjective criteria on what constitutes an "enthusiast" car.

Secondly, I have been a MT driver my entire life. I have only had one auto car the entire time I've been driving, which was a DCT...and I have to admit that the DCT in the M4 I tested the other day was far far far faster in every way than I could ever shift. Or you. Or Mario Andretti. So......it's not milliseconds as you purport above. There is a substantial difference in performance. As a staunch supporter of MT, I can admit that without getting my panties in a bunch. You should too.

We know you love your 1M, as you should. But, it's not the greatest car in the history of the world. It's a parts bin special my man. The new M2 won't be that. It's actually been engineered to be an M car, and I think difference is going to show. Nothing against the 1M - it's a great car - but it's not going to be in the same performance league as the M2. And it shouldn't be.

Also, the new DCT was supremely satisfying in the M4. I hope they offer it in the M2. What a transmission...what a car...that thing was on rails at 85 mph in turns that my 235 can't take at 70. It's on a completely different level. I think M2 will be as well.

booney, I've always enjoyed your posts (with the infrequent exception of those where you use God's name in vain), both in the E82 forum as well as here on the 2-Series forum. You're a 1 M guy in spirit if not in flesh.

The problems I see with the DCT in the M2 are twofold..weight and cost. Using the F8# as a barometer I believe they add 55 pounds at a cost of $2900, respectively, to the equation.

Those are two areas where I am personally extremely sensitive to (well, you can add EPS as an anathema to my senses, but that's beside the point and subjective) regarding this vehicle.

But more than that if we lose young, next generation enthusiasts like you to the infatuation that new alluring technological wizardry presents, then it won't be long before the manual goes the way of the unicorn as an ///M offering.

And when an "old" tradition and icon like that is lost, it's likely lost forever.

As to the OP's pleasant conundrum, it's a win-win situation no matter which way he goes.

As someone who purchased his 1 M used (3rd hand even), and paid a premium to do so I have absolutely no regrets and would do it all over again. The SAG factor is simply off the charts, and the 1 M manual gearbox kit is unequivocally the best of any vehicle (let alone BMW) I've experienced in my 30+ years of driving. There's a reason why it was selected to be slotted in as the gearbox for the F8# M's.

But if you can't reconcile the obvious trade-offs that old vs. new introduce, then the M2 is a worthy choice, particularly if you are someone like me that loves to use the Euro Delivery and Performance Center Delivery options (now even available to the kids on the west coast).

[Mark's M]

Originally Posted by OrangeCrush

I've never understood using parts bin as an insult to the 1M or possibly the M2. It would be different if the parts borrowed were from a lesser car.

Agreed 100%. Both the old 1M and the new M2 will have generational ties to their M3 or M3/4 "older brothers". Couldn't really ask for better than that but the point that some (and me) are trying to make is that the new M3/4 twins are just so much better than their predecessors and so, it stands to reason, the M2 will benefit from the same engineering and technology advancements. I honestly don't buy the proposition that more hands in the pot and a longer development period will produce a lesser car (in terms of what the 1M was 5 years ago vs the then M3 and what the M2 will be vs the current M3/4 twins. Just my thoughts of course

One thing I don't quite understand is the debate over 6mt vs DCT in the new car. It'll have the option for both so no need for anyone to fret. I'm a MT lover and had it on my M3 but my M2 will be DCT, no question. If it weighs a touch more than the MT.....oh well! Everyone's different, the nice thing about the new car is that it'll offer a choice for both sides of the enthusiast debate this time around

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by IndyMike

booney, I've always enjoyed your posts (with the infrequent exception of those where you use God's name in vain), both in the E82 forum as well as here on the 2-Series forum. You're a 1 M guy in spirit if not in flesh.

The problems I see with the DCT in the M2 are twofold..weight and cost. Using the F8# as a barometer I believe they add 55 pounds at a cost of $2900, respectively, to the equation.

Those are two areas where I am personally extremely sensitive to (well, you can add EPS as an anathema to my senses, but that's beside the point and subjective) regarding this vehicle.

But more than that if we lose young, next generation enthusiasts like you to the infatuation that new alluring technological wizardry presents, then it won't be long before the manual goes the way of the unicorn as an ///M offering.

And when an "old" tradition and icon like that is lost, it's likely lost forever.

As to the OP's pleasant conundrum, it's a win-win situation no matter which way he goes.

As someone who purchased his 1 M used (3rd hand even), and paid a premium to do so I have absolutely no regrets and would do it all over again. The SAG factor is simply off the charts, and the 1 M manual gearbox kit is unequivocally the best of any vehicle (let alone BMW) I've experienced in my 30+ years of driving. There's a reason why it was selected to be slotted in as the gearbox for the F8# M's.

But if you can't reconcile the obvious trade-offs that old vs. new introduce, then the M2 is a worthy choice, particularly if you are someone like me that loves to use the Euro Delivery and Performance Center Delivery options (now even available to the kids on the west coast).

I am definitely a big fan of the 1M. please don't ever think otherwise - I think it is just a fair conversation to have about things that are completely objective instead of subjective - that's all.

If I make my way into an M2 or M3 (very very tempted by the F80), then I am going to seriously consider the DCT because my driving environment has changed quite a bit since I left Indiana. Down here in Dallas, there is so much more traffic that the MT in my 235 can get old in a hurry, even with it being pretty light by a sports car standard. This is one place where the wizardry (love that term by the way) is a nice upgrade because it can be manic or docile depending on your mood.

You make good points on the cost and weight...but I think there will be enough demand for the DCT that it won't matter much on the cost side. And the weight, well the 2er is decently heavy no matter what - I can't see BMW getting down to the magic 3300 pound level without using some really exotic stuff, which will just raise the cost in another direction...

The other points you make are very valid, but the "new" situation is here to stay I'm afraid - in terms of the electric steering, active sound, etc, etc...hopefully the package is nice and polished by the time we get to all see it.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

I am definitely a big fan of the 1M. please don't ever think otherwise - I think it is just a fair conversation to have about things that are completely objective instead of subjective - that's all.

If I make my way into an M2 or M3 (very very tempted by the F80), then I am going to seriously consider the DCT because my driving environment has changed quite a bit since I left Indiana. Down here in Dallas, there is so much more traffic that the MT in my 235 can get old in a hurry, even with it being pretty light by a sports car standard. This is one place where the wizardry (love that term by the way) is a nice upgrade because it can be manic or docile depending on your mood.

You make good points on the cost and weight...but I think there will be enough demand for the DCT that it won't matter much on the cost side. And the weight, well the 2er is decently heavy no matter what - I can't see BMW getting down to the magic 3300 pound level without using some really exotic stuff, which will just raise the cost in another direction...

The other points you make are very valid, but the "new" situation is here to stay I'm afraid - in terms of the electric steering, active sound, etc, etc...hopefully the package is nice and polished by the time we get to all see it.

Cool discussion because it really brings up the stark differences between the M2 which I have my name on the list for unless I find a 1M first. The 1M is all about SUBJECTIVE tastes and the M2 is for those that are OBJECTIVE. It will be a better car technically and for those that live in traffic areas will offer more cushy things and DCT or at least a very good fast automatic. There are really no objective points on the 1M's side of the balance sheet in my opinion except that there are very few of them and they were very well liked which is a combination that can help it maintain good values in the future. Aside from that, the M2 will be better on all objective fronts in my humble 1M loving opinion.

The thing is this. As far as the original question goes, 1 believe getting a 1M is really a better option. Many have been mauled by tuners and guys that didn't even drive them and had already ripped parts out to mod. Many were bought by speculating dealers at crazy prices so they have been sitting outside of CarMax or dealerships in Illinois snow form months because of the prices. So every day there are less and less of them that are 'viable' options to purchase at these prices. Furthermore, if you find a nice one, you can drive it until M2 prices stabilize and trade it in if you wish and you might even come out even or make money if you take care of it.

All the cars in the future will be automatic, electric steering, fake sound, dynamic suspensions and even hybrid and electric. Pretty soon, the M2 will be a subjective choice for those that love the sound of a gas engine over an electric motor since objectively they will be much quicker and cleaner. So for me the future of these toys we buy will all become subjective because we are nearing the end of their domination in propulsion so in that context the 1M subjective attributes that make it more special. It is the last BMW that only came in a manual transmission. It is the last M car that only came with a mechanical only suspension. It's the last M car with hydraulic steering and at the same time, it was the first M car with turbos and the now common air curtains. You can also find some examples without iDrive and clean dash with beautiful white on black instruments and helmet friendly manual seats which I subjectively find stunningly beautiful in their simplicity compared to all the new arcade dashes of today.

So for those reasons, getting a 1M now while you can seems the better choice. It has more subjective special things than the M2 will because it will just be a faster version of the same thing every car is today! Fake sound, arcade dashes, automatics and manuals, comfort button, 360 camera views, self parking, butt and hand warmers, and all sorts of foofy things that are making me naseous thinking about on an M car. The bottom line is you can always trade it in for M2 but later, there will be less and less viable 1Ms.

Finally, most classic cars are cars that people loved when they were young and couldn't afford or had one one and lost it. There were a lot of people that wanted a 1M and never got an allocation that at some point many years from now will have a lot of money and they will find their Tesla sedan boring even though it's super fast and will pony up a ton of money for a well cared for 1M. Most of us here try to be objective but the reality is that everything about our love for BMWs is subjective. Because the ugly truth is that if we were all truly objective, we would be buying Camrys.

[KevinM]

I almost bought a 1M with 4K miles for $60K. In the end, I couldn't swallow paying over MSRP for a three year old car, especially knowing the M2 was coming. It wasn't the absolute cost, as I'll likely be paying the same for the M2 and even more if I decide on the F80 M3 (like the looks better than the M4)...just the principle.

Even so, sometimes I wish I had bought it - I do have a soft spot for the 1M!