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      07-31-2019, 08:09 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
Calling out is meaningless it's just words on a post. so what why not actually hold trump responsible and make him and his kind accountable? If you really believe what he's doing fiscally is wrong you should be out there trying to get him voted out! Even more then the most liberal person

Many months ago I make a post asking why these shady politicians get away with being liars and spending money like this and everyone said it's because ppl don't care and forget etc, I think even you said something like that. If that's true you should be out even in front of democrats to get rid of this guy who is spending record amounts and it's still just 2019.

All trump has to do is say something bad about some minority or call democrats socialists and ppl automatically forget about what he is doing with insane spending. Remember when everyone here was going crazy about Obama spending? Now it's crickets!

You should do something about the real damage this guy and those shady crazy republicans doing right now instead of some fake made up tax that isn't real and never would happen
I dont know maybe you should clean up the mess within your own party before you throw stones. Democrats went from a party for the middle class, to a party of socialists. Look at your candidates... They all want socialism, free everything. And in less than 10 years the Democrats went from DACA to open borders and free shit for people who come over here. This is the type of shit your party is pushing for. Who is going to pay for it all? Us, via massive tax hikes.
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      07-31-2019, 08:10 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
...If Americans would understand this and budget a couple grand a year for maintaining their health and use insurance to help cover unexpected costs in the event of a "health accident" with the same expectation one would have for other insurance products, then the current health plans could cut costs and increase profitability.

---

What do you think the chance of that is?...
About the same odds as the "average American" saving 25% of their net pay. Which is to say, 0% chance.
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      07-31-2019, 08:17 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
You are all falsely blaming some imaginary tax!

What about the real out of control spending? Trump had a second record breaking year of destroying our economy with crazy debt and deficit! But it's all quiet from you guys why because it's trump? Lol. But you get all crazy from some imaginary tax that is not really and wouldn't ever happen.

You all have to put energy into stopping trump and his actual real insane spending!
You do realize that only 30% of the national budget is discretionary? The rest is federally mandated to sustain programs put in place by Congress. Largely social security and medi[care,caid].

And before you start blaming someone based on sensationalistic headlines, I'd suggest you look at government spending since ~ 2007. Its paints a very different picture from what CNN is telling you.
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      07-31-2019, 08:40 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
Many months ago I make a post asking why these shady politicians get away with being liars and spending money like this and everyone said it's because ppl don't care and forget etc, I think even you said something like that. If that's true you should be out even in front of democrats to get rid of this guy who is spending record amounts and it's still just 2019.

Oh - I do care, and again, you would know this if you read my posts with more than a cursory glance.



As I've said before, however, our current political system allows a choice of only two options. With exception of perhaps Biden (although I am on the fence with this one), none of the current options being proffered by the Democrat party for 2020 will be better for this country than what we currently have (Trump). As such, I will most likely 'vote for the lessor of two evils' yet once again.
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      07-31-2019, 08:45 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
That is the problem though, with end of life care, cancer care and diabetes running rampant (partly because a certain political party doesn't want to curtail anybody's "freedoms")
I dont have a whole lot to add here, but did you really just blame a political party for diabetes?

Or, and I hope this is correct, are you saying it is a political partys fault for wanting to have people get end of life care, cancer care and diabetes care.
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      07-31-2019, 08:53 AM   #28
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Perhaps itís time for another Boston tea party.
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      07-31-2019, 08:54 AM   #29
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Perhaps itís time for another Boston tea party.
Canít wait
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      07-31-2019, 08:56 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
I dont have a whole lot to add here, but did you really just blame a political party for diabetes?

Or, and I hope this is correct, are you saying it is a political partys fault for wanting to have people get end of life care, cancer care and diabetes care.
No, I'm not blaming the Republican party for diabetes. What I am blaming/faulting or calling them out in is whenever anyone/Dems suggest we try to change the culture of shitty food/sedate lifestyles in the US..........they get all up in arms about curtailing freedoms etc. Then when it comes time to pay the piper for said bad decisions everyone (Republican supporters included) have their hand out wanting the meds/care.

As I agreed with Run Silent the only way to fix the health care mess is a very large culture change in the US in a lot of ways. A big part of that is on the front end with dietary habits and exercise. There are numerous other things that would need to change as well, but being proactive about ones health instead of reactive would be a huge start.

Last edited by minn19; 07-31-2019 at 09:09 AM..
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      07-31-2019, 09:45 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by tebbnsx View Post
Perhaps itís time for another Boston tea party.
Too much red tape involved to get the environmental impact approvals.....
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      07-31-2019, 10:12 AM   #32
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here's the thing...

https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-does-cana...nternationally

U.S. public expenditure on health care - 49% of $11,916 per person ($5839 per capita) is just a little more than Canada's total outlay of $5782 per capita. So while the short term financing of a single payer system is difficult to assess, in the longer term I tend to agree with Harris - that it wouldn't require a middle class tax increase.
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      07-31-2019, 10:51 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by BimmerBoomer View Post
https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-does-cana...nternationally

U.S. public expenditure on health care - 49% of $11,916 per person ($5839 per capita) is just a little more than Canada's total outlay of $5782 per capita. So while the short term financing of a single payer system is difficult to assess, in the longer term I tend to agree with Harris - that it wouldn't require a middle class tax increase.
I believe the number you quoted assumes Americans are still paying out of pocket.

If private insurance is eliminated and health care is totally paid for via taxes by the government, then those numbers double.

$6,000 x 320,000,000 = 1,920,000,000,000

PER YEAR!
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      07-31-2019, 10:59 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
No, I'm not blaming the Republican party for diabetes. What I am blaming/faulting or calling them out in is whenever anyone/Dems suggest we try to change the culture of shitty food/sedate lifestyles in the US..........they get all up in arms about curtailing freedoms etc. Then when it comes time to pay the piper for said bad decisions everyone (Republican supporters included) have their hand out wanting the meds/care.

As I agreed with Run Silent the only way to fix the health care mess is a very large culture change in the US in a lot of ways. A big part of that is on the front end with dietary habits and exercise. There are numerous other things that would need to change as well, but being proactive about ones health instead of reactive would be a huge start.
You would hate the "sugar" tax that they have on soft drinks and other things here in San Francisco. If I want a coke, I don't want to pay an extra tax on that because it's unhealthy. I'd think the majority of people know that it's not good for you - that's not why I drink it. It's a stupid tax and I don't know why people would vote such a dumb thing in. Educate people on making healthy food decisions, don't tax them for it.
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      07-31-2019, 11:00 AM   #35
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$6000 per capita seems about right...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
I believe the number you quoted assumes Americans are still paying out of pocket.

If private insurance is eliminated and health care is totally paid for via taxes by the government, then those numbers double.

$6,000 x 320,000,000 = 1,920,000,000,000

PER YEAR!
That is for total expenditures under a single payer system. Since your public expenditure is currently $5839 per capita it represents no appreciable increase. You would simply save everything that is currently a private expenditure. Why should you pay more than Canadians do?
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      07-31-2019, 11:08 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
I think the dems are starting to believe in AOCs theory of the world coming to an end in the next 10 years. Their promises sounds like a going out of business fire sale. Fuck it everything must go because it is all coming to an end.

What the Democrats are promising is fucking insane. Yet these are the same people that were crying about Trump's wall being too expensive. When it came to that all of a sudden they got fiscally conservative. And now it's free, free, free, and spend, spend, spend. Oh and open borders, with tons of free shit for those who cross it.
Why republicans live in a bubble made of lies?
Which democratic candidate ever said anything about "Open borders?"
Trump's wall is extremely expensive, because it's a waste of money.
Healthcare is a completely different thing: It's needed. People are dying. Every year thousands of people die because they don't get adequate healthcare.
And democrats didn't suddenly become "fiscally conservative". They're just telling the truth: Building a wall is the dumbest and least effective thing you can do for border protection.
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      07-31-2019, 11:36 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
You would hate the "sugar" tax that they have on soft drinks and other things here in San Francisco. If I want a coke, I don't want to pay an extra tax on that because it's unhealthy. I'd think the majority of people know that it's not good for you - that's not why I drink it. It's a stupid tax and I don't know why people would vote such a dumb thing in. Educate people on making healthy food decisions, don't tax them for it.
Why would I hate it? I don't buy Coke or other soda.

Any way your post is a perfect example of what I'm saying. In the same paragraph you say the majority of people know it isn't good for them. Then a couple lines later you say educate them, but don't tax them. So which is it, they know or they don't know?

I think most know xyz is bad for them, but the disease and illness doesn't happen for years down the road so they don't think about it until it is too late. Either bad dietary decisions or other things like smoking/drinking too much. And when they are faced with huge bills to treat them they suddenly want it available and affordable, no matter what they believed previously.

You are gonna have to pay one way or another for it also. Either at the point of purchase or later in another form of a tax.
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      07-31-2019, 11:40 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Why republicans live in a bubble made of lies?
Which democratic candidate ever said anything about "Open borders?"
Trump's wall is extremely expensive, because it's a waste of money.
Healthcare is a completely different thing: It's needed. People are dying. Every year thousands of people die because they don't get adequate healthcare.
And democrats didn't suddenly become "fiscally conservative". They're just telling the truth: Building a wall is the dumbest and least effective thing you can do for border protection.

Have you looked at the current candidates for president? They are for open borders. What the fuck do you think decriminalize illegal border crossing means. They all support it.

I mean yeah the wall is dumb when you are for open borders, so I guess you are right in that sense.

Last edited by Delta0311; 07-31-2019 at 11:48 AM..
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      07-31-2019, 11:48 AM   #39
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the real issue here...

Is not that you'd need a tax amounting to 10% of GDP but what would happen if 10% of your GDP evaporated due to an effective single payer healthcare system? Clearly you couldn't do this in one year - the economic effects would be devastating.
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      07-31-2019, 11:53 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Why would I hate it? I don't buy Coke or other soda.

Any way your post is a perfect example of what I'm saying. In the same paragraph you say the majority of people know it isn't good for them. Then a couple lines later you say educate them, but don't tax them. So which is it, they know or they don't know?

I think most know xyz is bad for them, but the disease and illness doesn't happen for years down the road so they don't think about it until it is too late. Either bad dietary decisions or other things like smoking/drinking too much. And when they are faced with huge bills to treat them they suddenly want it available and affordable, no matter what they believed previously.

You are gonna have to pay one way or another for it also. Either at the point of purchase or later in another form of a tax.
I'm saying I know, and most people probably know. For those they want to reach and teach, they can put up big billboards like the "smoking kills" ads they put everywhere or add labels to the coke bottles saying drinking excessive amounts of coke is not good for your health.

I don't drink coke that often but it's a treat when I do get one. Getting taxed on sugar added drinks is stupid. A bottle of orange juice has much more sugar in it than a can of coke. The coke gets the tax, not the orange juice.
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      07-31-2019, 12:04 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I'm saying I know, and most people probably know. For those they want to reach and teach, they can put up big billboards like the "smoking kills" ads they put everywhere or add labels to the coke bottles saying drinking excessive amounts of coke is not good for your health.

I don't drink coke that often but it's a treat when I do get one. Getting taxed on sugar added drinks is stupid. A bottle of orange juice has much more sugar in it than a can of coke. The coke gets the tax, not the orange juice.
Cmon, the vast majority know drinking too much pop or consuming other sugary things (or just eating too much) makes you obese. You can only educate people so much and they will still over indulge. Do we really need to put up signs saying stop eating such huge portions? People know the hazards of drinking and drinking and driving. Both are still at epidemic proportions.

Since you rarely get a Coke, how big of a deal is it to you? It couldn't of cost you that much over your life to bother you that bad. I've paid gas guzzler tax on my cars and pay a higher price for premium. Shit costs money and there is no free lunch if you want to do certain things. I'm not sure why paying a tax on unhealthy items to help pay for healthcare is any different.
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      07-31-2019, 12:20 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I'm not sure why paying a tax on unhealthy items to help pay for healthcare is any different.
If only this were true. But alas, many of us have seen the way these "special" taxes are not applied to their intended targets.
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      07-31-2019, 12:31 PM   #43
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If only this were true. But alas, many of us have seen the way these "special" taxes are not applied to their intended targets.
True, like walls and tax cuts for rich people.

Kidding aside, I do agree.
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      07-31-2019, 12:32 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by BimmerBoomer View Post
That is for total expenditures under a single payer system. Since your public expenditure is currently $5839 per capita it represents no appreciable increase. You would simply save everything that is currently a private expenditure. Why should you pay more than Canadians do?
We pay far more per capita than Canada does. I don't know how I can be more clear than that.

According to data from OECD, the US spends $10,209 on healthcare per capita. Our healthcare is more, because frankly, it's better than yours. Innovation, research, clinical trials, and more all come mostly from the the United States.

In addition, much research has been done by literally hundreds of non-partisan groups analyzing the costs of a government run healthcare system in America. I'm not sure why you think you would know so much more than all these other folks?

Hell - Even Bernie Sanders himself states that government run healthcare in America will need 40,000,000,000,000 in additional taxes over the next ten years. That is 40 trillion.

https://reason.com/2019/07/17/bernie...-single-payer/

https://freebeacon.com/politics/sand...over-10-years/

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