[Pierre Louis]

I just did a "build" on the BMW web site (USA) for an i4 "Gran Coupe" and it is fugly. Black wheels are the ones that provide the most range with no other 18" choices. The grill is their version of a saw-toothed tiger. AND they charge $1,000 for optional heads up display (a safety feature, IMO).

I'll stay with my 535d for now....

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

I just did a "build" on the BMW web site (USA) for an i4 "Gran Coupe" and it is fugly. Black wheels are the ones that provide the most range with no other 18" choices. The grill is their version of a saw-toothed tiger. AND they charge $1,000 for optional heads up display (a safety feature, IMO).

I'll stay with my 535d for now....

BMW is living off its road handling ability but that is starting to fade as a reason to buy BMW. Range on the electric cars is questionable unless one is hypermiling and why buy a BMW to hypermile. Since most of use drive quickly, then we need bigger range, not less range. Add in the edsel grills and the reason shrinks some more.

I would like to stay with BMW but right now I have a deposit down on a Lucid Air Pure. 400 mile range with 480 HP. BMW is going to have to up its game and find new designers.

[Joe-BMW33]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

BMW is living off its road handling ability but that is starting to fade as a reason to buy BMW. Range on the electric cars is questionable unless one is hypermiling and why buy a BMW to hypermile. Since most of use drive quickly, then we need bigger range, not less range. Add in the edsel grills and the reason shrinks some more.

I would like to stay with BMW but right now I have a deposit down on a Lucid Air Pure. 400 mile range with 480 HP. BMW is going to have to up its game and find new designers.

I think it depends on which market you are in and what your profile is when it comes to the statement of the brand fading. They are still very much drivers cars and their market is the german market. That is pretty much BMW, Audi and Mercedes. Mercedes gets eliminated immediately because they are not drivers cars and don't offer the driving experience. They offer a different driving experience for a different market, the people that like a soft luxurious and comfortable ride. Audi and BMW are close on the drivers car experience.

You are talking about the EV market and I would argue that this market is not part of the market wanting drivers cars. BMW is still very much in the market for performance and power. These same people (me) would not even consider an EV. BMW is catching up here and trying to carve out some of the Tesla market, I suspect they are behind the curve.

In terms of subjective design, I lived through the Bangle butt era and was first a hater, but shortly after, a "maybe" to buying three E65's in a row. BMW is and will be just fine.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Joe-BMW33

I think it depends on which market you are in and what your profile is when it comes to the statement of the brand fading. They are still very much drivers cars and their market is the german market. That is pretty much BMW, Audi and Mercedes. Mercedes gets eliminated immediately because they are not drivers cars and don't offer the driving experience. They offer a different driving experience for a different market, the people that like a soft luxurious and comfortable ride. Audi and BMW are close on the drivers car experience.

You are talking about the EV market and I would argue that this market is not part of the market wanting drivers cars. BMW is still very much in the market for performance and power. These same people (me) would not even consider an EV. BMW is catching up here and trying to carve out some of the Tesla market, I suspect they are behind the curve.

In terms of subjective design, I lived through the Bangle butt era and was first a hater, but shortly after, a "maybe" to buying three E65's in a row. BMW is and will be just fine.

I think it is the changing of the guard that will make this all very soft ground for the next decade at least probably...

I have a very short automotive history so I won't ignore that fact, but I will say my first car was a 2014 Mercedes C300 W204 in Luxury Configuration, but it felt very much sporty and had an amazing blend of sport and luxury. It felt much more connected to the road than I feel my G30 does. Though I respect it isn't a 100% Apples to Apples comparison in that you have a much smaller and more nimble car (3-Series comp) compared to a larger and heavier car (E-Class comp). You also have that being the last MY that MB put a Naturally Aspirated V6 in the C-Class and it wasn't drive by wire yet. All contributing to a much more connected feel. But I won't agree Mercedes is soulless on the engaging drive dynamics. Perhaps on the S-Class?

But I think the real shift around here is all in the re-writing of what it means to be sporty and engaged. I wouldn't say EV drivers entirely don't care about performance or sporty driving. That's sort of what Tesla made its claim to fame. Taking EVs from "boring economy cars" like the Prius to something that can be regarded as sporty and engaging. They also don't want you driving so their cars are lopsided in that they interpret sporty and engaging to be one note -- acceleration. But that leaves room for brands like BMW to use their heritage to paint a much more complete picture...

Tesla is capturing the lion's share of the EV market as they've been sort of defining it. That means they're pulling in the Prius driver who only cares about hypermiling to be as "green" as possible. They are also pulling in the performance guy or gal who wants to hit the pedal as hard and fast as they can to test their ability to not pass out... Once other brands carve out their niches again things will start to look a lot more normal.

For instance, there is nothing saying EVs have to lack transmissions. They can increase EV efficiency and return some of the engagement of driving back to the mix. Steering feedback and feel is something that can also be translated back without needing it to be power plant specific...

I feel brands like BMW will eventually get a chance to bring their DNA to EVs now that they see that the world is clearly on that path. I also think those who are against EVs will eventually embrace them once they do and look back wondering why we didn't get there sooner. The loss of the great engine notes not withstanding...

[Gautam]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

I think it is the changing of the guard that will make this all very soft ground for the next decade at least probably...

I have a very short automotive history so I won't ignore that fact, but I will say my first car was a 2014 Mercedes C300 W204 in Luxury Configuration, but it felt very much sporty and had an amazing blend of sport and luxury. It felt much more connected to the road than I feel my G30 does. Though I respect it isn't a 100% Apples to Apples comparison in that you have a much smaller and more nimble car (3-Series comp) compared to a larger and heavier car (E-Class comp). You also have that being the last MY that MB put a Naturally Aspirated V6 in the C-Class and it wasn't drive by wire yet. All contributing to a much more connected feel. But I won't agree Mercedes is soulless on the engaging drive dynamics. Perhaps on the S-Class?

But I think the real shift around here is all in the re-writing of what it means to be sporty and engaged. I wouldn't say EV drivers entirely don't care about performance or sporty driving. That's sort of what Tesla made its claim to fame. Taking EVs from "boring economy cars" like the Prius to something that can be regarded as sporty and engaging. They also don't want you driving so their cars are lopsided in that they interpret sporty and engaging to be one note -- acceleration. But that leaves room for brands like BMW to use their heritage to paint a much more complete picture...

Tesla is capturing the lion's share of the EV market as they've been sort of defining it. That means they're pulling in the Prius driver who only cares about hypermiling to be as "green" as possible. They are also pulling in the performance guy or gal who wants to hit the pedal as hard and fast as they can to test their ability to not pass out... Once other brands carve out their niches again things will start to look a lot more normal.

For instance, there is nothing saying EVs have to lack transmissions. They can increase EV efficiency and return some of the engagement of driving back to the mix. Steering feedback and feel is something that can also be translated back without needing it to be power plant specific...

I feel brands like BMW will eventually get a chance to bring their DNA to EVs now that they see that the world is clearly on that path. I also think those who are against EVs will eventually embrace them once they do and look back wondering why we didn't get there sooner. The loss of the great engine notes not withstanding...

I agree completely. Fwiw I found the e43 & 53 more engaging than my M550. I actually started looking at Tesla first, and ironically the G30 was what I wanted the Model S to be. The teslas are not dull cars. Less soul than performance ICE cars sure, but very fast and it’s clear that they at least tried to make them engaging. Unfortunately, like you said, Tesla prioritizes acceleration above all else.

The traditional automakers need to start stepping up. There’s a lot that their dna of building actual sport & luxury vehicles can bring to the table that the likes of Tesla, and even Rivian and Lucid will struggle to.

[MarkSCD]

Originally Posted by TacticalGunnarM550

I just got my CPO M550 and i drove to the lot this last weekend and saw the I4 M50.. that's now what we're getting for the wife.

Very nice! I didn't jump at the chance to reserve my allotted spot and now have to wait until May. It'll be a while before my local dealership have one on their lot.

[Joe-BMW33]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

I think it is the changing of the guard that will make this all very soft ground for the next decade at least probably...

I have a very short automotive history so I won't ignore that fact, but I will say my first car was a 2014 Mercedes C300 W204 in Luxury Configuration, but it felt very much sporty and had an amazing blend of sport and luxury. It felt much more connected to the road than I feel my G30 does. Though I respect it isn't a 100% Apples to Apples comparison in that you have a much smaller and more nimble car (3-Series comp) compared to a larger and heavier car (E-Class comp). You also have that being the last MY that MB put a Naturally Aspirated V6 in the C-Class and it wasn't drive by wire yet. All contributing to a much more connected feel. But I won't agree Mercedes is soulless on the engaging drive dynamics. Perhaps on the S-Class?

But I think the real shift around here is all in the re-writing of what it means to be sporty and engaged. I wouldn't say EV drivers entirely don't care about performance or sporty driving. That's sort of what Tesla made its claim to fame. Taking EVs from "boring economy cars" like the Prius to something that can be regarded as sporty and engaging. They also don't want you driving so their cars are lopsided in that they interpret sporty and engaging to be one note -- acceleration. But that leaves room for brands like BMW to use their heritage to paint a much more complete picture...

Tesla is capturing the lion's share of the EV market as they've been sort of defining it. That means they're pulling in the Prius driver who only cares about hypermiling to be as "green" as possible. They are also pulling in the performance guy or gal who wants to hit the pedal as hard and fast as they can to test their ability to not pass out... Once other brands carve out their niches again things will start to look a lot more normal.

For instance, there is nothing saying EVs have to lack transmissions. They can increase EV efficiency and return some of the engagement of driving back to the mix. Steering feedback and feel is something that can also be translated back without needing it to be power plant specific...

I feel brands like BMW will eventually get a chance to bring their DNA to EVs now that they see that the world is clearly on that path. I also think those who are against EVs will eventually embrace them once they do and look back wondering why we didn't get there sooner. The loss of the great engine notes not withstanding...

Well written and compelling reply. I think it's going to be a discussion or healthy debate for a while. I'm not sure I'll ever say look what I was missing, I will say look what I'm forced into. But who knows? I guess it's the same as the my bangle butt perspective where I ended up embracing it, so maybe I will embrace EV's.

With regard to Tesla, I don't think the profile of people buying them has anything to do with the head jerking pull from zero. I honestly have never seen a Tesla with the driver driving aggressively. They are always puttering in the right lane, which makes me wonder how fun can they be to drive or, like I inferred, the profile of the driver is just not into cars and more into green. I also find them so boring inside and out.

I do like your perspective on what a company like BMW can bring to the EV market, years and years of fine engineering. I do hope you are right about transmissions being possible in EV's and maybe even the third pedal. Now that would tempt me.

[eliphil]

I can only go by personal experience. I test drove the Tesla P sports sedan about 7 years ago and then again a few years later. The acceleration was impressive as was the innovative design but it just felt incredibly lacking. Definitely not a drivers car as far I am concerned.

[Kriz2fer]

Originally Posted by MarkSCD

I did. I stayed in the BMW family. I ordered the I4 M50. I'm told it's "faster" the my M550.

It’s not faster. 0-60 3.9 for the I4 3.5 for m550

[Gautam]

Originally Posted by Joe-BMW33

With regard to Tesla, I don't think the profile of people buying them has anything to do with the head jerking pull from zero. I honestly have never seen a Tesla with the driver driving aggressively. They are always puttering in the right lane, which makes me wonder how fun can they be to drive or, like I inferred, the profile of the driver is just not into cars and more into green. I also find them so boring inside and out.

Come to the Bay Area and you’ll find the opposite, many act like they own the road. And no doubt, they can dust 99% of the other cars on it.

[muzzalad]

Originally Posted by Joe-BMW33

Well written and compelling reply. I think it's going to be a discussion or healthy debate for a while. I'm not sure I'll ever say look what I was missing, I will say look what I'm forced into. But who knows? I guess it's the same as the my bangle butt perspective where I ended up embracing it, so maybe I will embrace EV's.

With regard to Tesla, I don't think the profile of people buying them has anything to do with the head jerking pull from zero. I honestly have never seen a Tesla with the driver driving aggressively. They are always puttering in the right lane, which makes me wonder how fun can they be to drive or, like I inferred, the profile of the driver is just not into cars and more into green. I also find them so boring inside and out.

I do like your perspective on what a company like BMW can bring to the EV market, years and years of fine engineering. I do hope you are right about transmissions being possible in EV's and maybe even the third pedal. Now that would tempt me.

This chap in Wales has coupled a 5 speed gearbox to some Tesla motors and then put them in a 1979 911 Targa.

https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/influx/cars/electric-911/

So looks like it's possible to put gears on an electric car - will need a market for it though. In the UK there are barely any left and we missed out on the G80/G82 manuals as well.

[hlothery]

Interestingly, and this is completely anecdotal, I have found Tesla drivers to be the most aggressive and demonstrative here in San Antonio, since I got the EQS. They seem to want me to know how fast they accelerate. I,OTOH, bought the EQS because of the luxury I experience as I drive. One or two seconds faster to 60mph is not as important to me, at this stage of my life, as comfort, quiet, and an exquisite stereo blasting my favorite music of the day as I enjoy it all. I have been there, and done that. It is great, but overrated IMHO. I just settle into the leather sport seats, crank up the Burmester, and enjoy the ride. One thing you can’t explain to most Tesla drivers I have met is that ugly is ugly, no matter how fast it goes. Just my humble opinion. Anyway, interesting discussions. Thanks.

[Kriz2fer]

Originally Posted by hlothery

Interestingly, and this is completely anecdotal, I have found Tesla drivers to be the most aggressive and demonstrative here in San Antonio, since I got the EQS. They seem to want me to know how fast they accelerate. I,OTOH, bought the EQS because of the luxury I experience as I drive. One or two seconds faster to 60mph is not as important to me, at this stage of my life, as comfort, quiet, and an exquisite stereo blasting my favorite music of the day as I enjoy it all. I have been there, and done that. It is great, but overrated IMHO. I just settle into the leather sport seats, crank up the Burmester, and enjoy the ride. One thing you can’t explain to most Tesla drivers I have met is that ugly is ugly, no matter how fast it goes. Just my humble opinion. Anyway, interesting discussions. Thanks.

They are freaking amazingly nice cars. Enjoy

[engineer2020]

Originally Posted by Kriz2fer

It’s not faster. 0-60 3.9 for the I4 3.5 for m550

I think Matt Watson from Carwow got the i4 M50 5o 3.62 with full battery charge

[hlothery]

Update: Still waiting for the NEMA 6-50 plug to be installed in my garage, and the ChargePoint charger to be delivered (backordered). Charging with regen, and with the 115 volt charger, using commercial locations as needed (and they are plentiful). Need to download Chargepoint, PlugShare, and Electrify America apps for full information. BTW, the SOC meter in my car estimates that, at 80% (the recommended charge level) I can to 336 miles. Over 400 if I charge to 100%, which you only do before a trip. Still in transition, window tint on Friday. This is an awesome car, not slow by any means, very nimble for the weight (thanks to the rear axle steering and great suspension). Not a rocket ship like the M550, but the luxury and stereo....Oh my! Loving it so far.

[hlothery]

Another update: (definitely not my last post) The electricians are coming tomorrow to install the NEMA 6-50 plug (some require NEMA 14-50) in my garage. Unfortunately, my electric panel in the garage only handles 120 volt stuff, so they have to do a run through the attic from the main panel on the back of the house, where all my 220/240 stuff is (furnace, stove/oven, dryer, AC unit). This is pretty expensive, so anyone considering an EV needs to have that evaluation done prior, so as not to be surprized, as I was. At any rate, I'll have the plug tomorrow afternoon, and the ChargePoint Level 2 charger by early next week. In the meantime, I'm surprised to find that the 115 Volt trickle charger which came as an option with the car does a reasonable job. I drive to the golf course (25 miles one way) each day, and it charges back up to 80% if I plug it in in the afternoon when I come home, by the next morning. Looking forward to having the security of the Level 2 charger, where I will be able to stretch my legs a bit. Also, there is an Electrify America charging station with 7 Level 3 DC chargers about 5 miles from me, so no issues. They are the 30 minute from 20-80% chargers. This is certainly an adventure, both in and out of the car!

[Sxs1687]

Originally Posted by hlothery

Interestingly, and this is completely anecdotal, I have found Tesla drivers to be the most aggressive and demonstrative here in San Antonio, since I got the EQS. They seem to want me to know how fast they accelerate. I,OTOH, bought the EQS because of the luxury I experience as I drive. One or two seconds faster to 60mph is not as important to me, at this stage of my life, as comfort, quiet, and an exquisite stereo blasting my favorite music of the day as I enjoy it all. I have been there, and done that. It is great, but overrated IMHO. I just settle into the leather sport seats, crank up the Burmester, and enjoy the ride. One thing you can't explain to most Tesla drivers I have met is that ugly is ugly, no matter how fast it goes. Just my humble opinion. Anyway, interesting discussions. Thanks.

Ugly is ugly lol. I just can't bring myself to find any of these Teslas attractive, esp that minimalistic interior. It looks like an iPad on wheels. I guess that's what you get when a tech company starts building cars.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by hlothery

Another update: (definitely not my last post) The electricians are coming tomorrow to install the NEMA 6-50 plug (some require NEMA 14-50) in my garage. Unfortunately, my electric panel in the garage only handles 120 volt stuff, so they have to do a run through the attic from the main panel on the back of the house, where all my 220/240 stuff is (furnace, stove/oven, dryer, AC unit). This is pretty expensive, so anyone considering an EV needs to have that evaluation done prior, so as not to be surprized, as I was. At any rate, I'll have the plug tomorrow afternoon, and the ChargePoint Level 2 charger by early next week. In the meantime, I'm surprised to find that the 115 Volt trickle charger which came as an option with the car does a reasonable job. I drive to the golf course (25 miles one way) each day, and it charges back up to 80% if I plug it in in the afternoon when I come home, by the next morning. Looking forward to having the security of the Level 2 charger, where I will be able to stretch my legs a bit. Also, there is an Electrify America charging station with 7 Level 3 DC chargers about 5 miles from me, so no issues. They are the 30 minute from 20-80% chargers. This is certainly an adventure, both in and out of the car!

Sounds like we are pretty similar, even to the golfing. When I installed my garage charging unit an electrician had to reorder my electrical control box (fuse box) to get me a dedicated line which he then had to run from one side of the house to the other to get to my garage. But even then he could only find 20 amps for a dedicated circuit out of a 225 amp service (7 tons of AC, pool heater pump, etc. etc.). So unless I am prepared to dig up my lawn and run another line in from the street, I am stuck with a 20 amp circuit. So I plan to basically use my in home charger unit to maintain a charge and EA if my charge runs down sufficiently that a maintenance charge won't do it or if I plan a trip. Unfortunately, the closest EA unit to me is about 4.5 miles from my house and only as one fast charging spot. When I drove past it the other day, there was no one there.

[hlothery]

Originally Posted by Sxs1687

Ugly is ugly lol. I just can't bring myself to find any of these Teslas attractive, esp that minimalistic interior. It looks like an iPad on wheels. I guess that's what you get when a tech company starts building cars.

They all rave about 0-60 times and autonomous driving capability. While I like acceleration, I am totally disinterested in the car driving itself, and I rarely safely could use the M550 to it's acceleration capabilities. My EQS 450+ is faster than the 2014 E350 I had, which I loved. And the luxury cannot be understood until experienced....and will never happen in a Tesla. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

[Joe-BMW33]

Originally Posted by hlothery

Another update: (definitely not my last post) The electricians are coming tomorrow to install the NEMA 6-50 plug (some require NEMA 14-50) in my garage. Unfortunately, my electric panel in the garage only handles 120 volt stuff, so they have to do a run through the attic from the main panel on the back of the house, where all my 220/240 stuff is (furnace, stove/oven, dryer, AC unit). This is pretty expensive, so anyone considering an EV needs to have that evaluation done prior, so as not to be surprized, as I was. At any rate, I'll have the plug tomorrow afternoon, and the ChargePoint Level 2 charger by early next week. In the meantime, I'm surprised to find that the 115 Volt trickle charger which came as an option with the car does a reasonable job. I drive to the golf course (25 miles one way) each day, and it charges back up to 80% if I plug it in in the afternoon when I come home, by the next morning. Looking forward to having the security of the Level 2 charger, where I will be able to stretch my legs a bit. Also, there is an Electrify America charging station with 7 Level 3 DC chargers about 5 miles from me, so no issues. They are the 30 minute from 20-80% chargers. This is certainly an adventure, both in and out of the car!

This is a long last post!!! 😜😜😜. See you just can't leave the BMW community, even for help with the Tesla.

[hlothery]

Originally Posted by Joe-BMW33

This is a long last post!!! 😜😜😜. See you just can't leave the BMW community, even for help with the Tesla.

It is definitely hard to leave you guys. I may hand around, if you will have me.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by hlothery

Another update: (definitely not my last post) The electricians are coming tomorrow to install the NEMA 6-50 plug (some require NEMA 14-50) in my garage. Unfortunately, my electric panel in the garage only handles 120 volt stuff, so they have to do a run through the attic from the main panel on the back of the house, where all my 220/240 stuff is (furnace, stove/oven, dryer, AC unit). This is pretty expensive, so anyone considering an EV needs to have that evaluation done prior, so as not to be surprized, as I was. At any rate, I'll have the plug tomorrow afternoon, and the ChargePoint Level 2 charger by early next week. In the meantime, I'm surprised to find that the 115 Volt trickle charger which came as an option with the car does a reasonable job. I drive to the golf course (25 miles one way) each day, and it charges back up to 80% if I plug it in in the afternoon when I come home, by the next morning. Looking forward to having the security of the Level 2 charger, where I will be able to stretch my legs a bit. Also, there is an Electrify America charging station with 7 Level 3 DC chargers about 5 miles from me, so no issues. They are the 30 minute from 20-80% chargers. This is certainly an adventure, both in and out of the car!

What amp level were you able to get in a dedicated circuit?