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      11-20-2018, 09:48 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mk1-fan View Post
https://streamable.com/fkpqj
Watch around 3:04, Max moved to the left, off the racing line. It's as clear as daylight.
How anyone can still defend him after this is baffling. He was clearly pissed he was passed and was ultra aggressive there after. He made a move to block Ocon on the straight who was clearly WAY faster... surprised MV didn't do his usual double move. I don't understand how anyone can defend him after this.
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      11-20-2018, 10:03 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StatenEye View Post
How anyone can still defend him after this is baffling. He was clearly pissed he was passed and was ultra aggressive there after. He made a move to block Ocon on the straight who was clearly WAY faster... surprised MV didn't do his usual double move. I don't understand how anyone can defend him after this.
It is amazing how people can see the same incident so differently. I still can't see why Ocon got assessed a penalty for anything. He had the inside line on the corner MV turned down on top of him causing the collision. Oh well, on to the next/last race.
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      11-20-2018, 10:39 AM   #91
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This is one of the better analysis that I've seen
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      11-20-2018, 10:52 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
This is one of the better analysis that I've seen
Good video, I don't agree with his overall conclusions, but still good.

F1 should just make a rule then that a lapped car cannot try and and unlap themselves racing the leader instead of this political BS.
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      11-20-2018, 11:47 AM   #93
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In the end it doesnt matter what we think of it, or even what drivers like Hamilton think of it or what the guy in the video thinks of it.
It's up to the officials and race director. And in their view and how the rules are it's a clear matter. Ocon had no business in trying to pass Verstappen in such an aggressive way like I've been telling all along.
Ocon fucked up on the straight where he had not limited the distance between Verstappen and himself enough that he could make a clean pass on the straight, so he should have backed off in T1, instead he decided to hold his ground into T2 which resulted in the crash. So its completely Ocon's fault. I don't understand how this is so difficult to understand for certain persons. Whitings explanation was very simple.
A race leader should not be hindered by someone who's trailing a lap, thats the point and a lot of rules in F1 are focussed on that. Like the blue flag.
I don't know how old the people here are that don't get this, but if you're over 40-45ish, you probably remember how F1 was before the blue flags and that cars that were trailing a lap behind more often had an influence in the outcome of a race, hindering the race leaders too much. Of course they also drive their own race but it was decided that it was more important that the battle between race leaders was influenced as less as possible by these lesser drivers. Back then the race leaders could get very pissed off by lesser drivers getting lapped. Can you imagine what happens with the explosive temperament of Senna when he had to deal with such things? (of course Senna was also a guy at the start of his career that pissed off race leaders when he was getting lapped)
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      11-20-2018, 12:10 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
In the end it doesnt matter what we think of it, or even what drivers like Hamilton think of it or what the guy in the video thinks of it.
It's up to the officials and race director. And in their view and how the rules are it's a clear matter. Ocon had no business in trying to pass Verstappen in such an aggressive way like I've been telling all along.
Ocon fucked up on the straight where he had not limited the distance between Verstappen and himself enough that he could make a clean pass on the straight, so he should have backed off in T1, instead he decided to hold his ground into T2 which resulted in the crash. So its completely Ocon's fault. I don't understand how this is so difficult to understand for certain persons. Whitings explanation was very simple.
A race leader should not be hindered by someone who's trailing a lap, thats the point and a lot of rules in F1 are focussed on that. Like the blue flag.
I don't know how old the people here are that don't get this, but if you're over 40-45ish, you probably remember how F1 was before the blue flags and that cars that were trailing a lap behind more often had an influence in the outcome of a race, hindering the race leaders too much. Of course they also drive their own race but it was decided that it was more important that the battle between race leaders was influenced as less as possible by these lesser drivers. Back then the race leaders could get very pissed off by lesser drivers getting lapped. Can you imagine what happens with the explosive temperament of Senna when he had to deal with such things? (of course Senna was also a guy at the start of his career that pissed off race leaders when he was getting lapped)
Actually, I'd say the officials and race directors thoughts/punishments matter the least out of all of this. They didn't give MV the win so what does a ten second penalty matter to a driver that wasn't even going to make it into a point position anyway? And MV's penalty? Who even knows what they meant there.

I guess for me it is hard to understand your point of view because............I don't get why MV is allowed to stuff his nose into the first corner defending his inside line (as Ocon was ahead there), but Ocon isn't allowed to defend his inside line into the next one. MV clearly dove into Ocon in that corner causing the crash.

Before you say race leader etc. Was it bad taste etc by Ocon to do what he did? 100%, was it against the rules to try and pass him to unlap himself no.
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      11-20-2018, 12:41 PM   #95
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Shhhh, Guido said our opinions don't matter guys. Just listen to him since he has the power of the race officials, and the drivers who make any discernable mistakes are always punished by said officials.

If they don't punish a given driver, no mistake can possibly have been made by that driver... This is what you are saying we should understand so easily, correct Guido?
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      11-20-2018, 12:44 PM   #96
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      11-20-2018, 02:32 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Actually, I'd say the officials and race directors thoughts/punishments matter the least out of all of this. They didn't give MV the win so what does a ten second penalty matter to a driver that wasn't even going to make it into a point position anyway? And MV's penalty? Who even knows what they meant there.
They cant give MV his win because that would be a punishment for Hamiltons performance. Something like that never happens, at least not that I have seen in any FIA raceclass.
The 10 sec penalty is the 2nd heaviest penalty they could give within the F1 penalty system. Disqualifying would be the other option. And its not only the 10sec stop/go he got, Ocon also got 3 penalty points. Not that that matters as he's probably gone in next season, but otherwise thats also a penalty most drivers dont like. If it was up to me Ocon should have been disqualified because the penalties he got didnt really hurt him because of the position that he's in (assuming he wont return in F1 next year), but then again, the punishment for a fault should be determined by the fault thats made, not by how it effects the perpetrator in sports.

Quote:
I guess for me it is hard to understand your point of view because............I don't get why MV is allowed to stuff his nose into the first corner defending his inside line (as Ocon was ahead there), but Ocon isn't allowed to defend his inside line into the next one. MV clearly dove into Ocon in that corner causing the crash.
Read Whitings comment. Ocon is not allowed to hinder the race leader. One may unlap, but not in a fighting manner.

Quote:
Before you say race leader etc. Was it bad taste etc by Ocon to do what he did? 100%, was it against the rules to try and pass him to unlap himself no.
Of course it was bad taste. He may unlap himself but not by means of hindering the race leader. When he saw that his unlapattempt failed at the straight he should have backed off and wait for another oppertunity.
Not trying to get the inside line to the next corner.
I dont understand why this is so difficult to understand. He's a lap behind. He had no business in interfering or hindering the race leader. Thats the rule.
If he wanted to unlap himself, he should have taken care of that on the straight, like he attempted. But that failed. So then wait for another suitable attempt instead of driving your car in the side of another car. When the crash happened in T1, he tried to force Verstappen off the racing line by placing his car inbetween Verstappen and the curbs. In this case, the race leader doesn't have to yield, the lesser driver has to. It all fits in the system of blue flags etc, the leader has the 'right of passage' so to speak
Or would you rather have the racing system again from the era before blue flags? Where cars that are lapped are virtually equal as cars that fight eachother for a position?
I can mention loads of drivers back then that were feared to be overtaken when lapped .... I dont think that was a better system back then from a sporting pov.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
This is what you are saying we should understand so easily, correct Guido?
Pretty much if you're not smart enough to understand Whitings view. But thats basically what you're saying, that you know things better than him.
They didnt punish Verstappen because he did nothing wrong (at least not on the track, I'm not talking about his behaviour in the pits). If you don't understand that, you don't understand anything about the F1 rules apparantly. Or in your view: you understand better than Whiting how the rules work (that he himself probably made, seeing how long he has been in F1)
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      11-20-2018, 02:43 PM   #98
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My observation is that the people that have never raced and or won races like to think that Ocon did nothing wrong. Believe it or not, back markers are in NO WAY supposed to impede the race leader. He could've easily gotten DRS on the next straight. YOU DON'T race the leader when you are 1 or 2 laps down.. The reason being because if you take him out it's all on you.
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      11-20-2018, 02:57 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
They cant give MV his win because that would be a punishment for Hamiltons performance. Something like that never happens, at least not that I have seen in any FIA raceclass.
The 10 sec penalty is the 2nd heaviest penalty they could give within the F1 penalty system. Disqualifying would be the other option. And its not only the 10sec stop/go he got, Ocon also got 3 penalty points. Not that that matters as he's probably gone in next season, but otherwise thats also a penalty most drivers dont like. If it was up to me Ocon should have been disqualified because the penalties he got didnt really hurt him because of the position that he's in (assuming he wont return in F1 next year), but then again, the punishment for a fault should be determined by the fault thats made, not by how it effects the perpetrator in sports.

Read Whitings comment. Ocon is not allowed to hinder the race leader. One may unlap, but not in a fighting manner.


Of course it was bad taste. He may unlap himself but not by means of hindering the race leader. When he saw that his unlapattempt failed at the straight he should have backed off and wait for another oppertunity.
Not trying to get the inside line to the next corner.
I dont understand why this is so difficult to understand. He's a lap behind. He had no business in interfering or hindering the race leader. Thats the rule.
If he wanted to unlap himself, he should have taken care of that on the straight, like he attempted. But that failed. So then wait for another suitable attempt instead of driving your car in the side of another car. The race leader doesn't have to yield, the lesser driver has to. It all fits in the system of blue flags etc.
Or would you rather have the racing system again from the era before blue flags?
I can mention loads of drivers back then that were feared to be overtaken when lapped .... I dont think that was a better system back then from a sporting pov.


Pretty much if you're not smart enough to understand Whitings view. But thats basically what you're saying, that you know things better than him.
They didnt punish Verstappen because he did nothing wrong (at least not on the track, I'm not talking about his behaviour in the pits). If you don't understand that, you don't understand anything about the F1 rules apparantly. Or in your view: you understand better than Whiting how the rules work (that he himself probably made, seeing how long he has been in F1)
I’m not sure why this is getting personal with insults etc. It’s about a car race.

MV would not of been hindered had he not fought back in the first corner to begin with.

I was kidding about giving the win to MV and of course it has never happened when it comes to something like this. Hence why most of these “punishments” are meaningless.
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      11-20-2018, 03:52 PM   #100
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Let us hope Ocon is not in Miami !

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      11-20-2018, 03:55 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Let us hope Ocon is not in Miami !

That actually looks pretty cool.

Why shouldn't Ocon be there? So we don't see the worst pushing/slap fight ever?
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      11-20-2018, 04:46 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
That actually looks pretty cool.

Why shouldn't Ocon be there? So we don't see the worst pushing/slap fight ever?
Yeah . That's because Max is really cool !

Because Ocon would not survive the fight (part 2) in Miami

Max drove in 2009 , 50 kart races and won 49 races . And he was worldchampion with manual gearbox and automatic gearbox .

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      11-20-2018, 09:05 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Pretty much if you're not smart enough to understand Whitings view. But thats basically what you're saying, that you know things better than him.
They didnt punish Verstappen because he did nothing wrong (at least not on the track, I'm not talking about his behaviour in the pits). If you don't understand that, you don't understand anything about the F1 rules apparantly. Or in your view: you understand better than Whiting how the rules work (that he himself probably made, seeing how long he has been in F1)
Alright, since you're so smart...direct me to where I stated that the punishment given to Ocon was incorrect? Then, direct me to where I stated Verstappen should've been punished for breaking any particular rules. Then, direct me to where I seem to propose that I know things better than Whiting.

After you fail at all of the above, your foot should be placed in your mouth. Of course it probably won't be and you will continue to project opinions onto me that I never stated or had, and will keep avoiding the simple question of whether Verstappen could've made a better decision for his race.

Oh well, you are just too intelligent to see that Whiting's review is about rules being followed, and is not relevant to optimal racing strategy and decision making of drivers.
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      11-20-2018, 10:11 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
Alright, since you're so smart...direct me to where I stated that the punishment given to Ocon was incorrect?

Where in my quote do I say that you have said that Ocon's punishment was incorrect?
The quote you're giving is about me saying that Verstappen didnt get a punishment because his move was legit.

Ocon made the mistake, NOT Verstappen. Verstappen isnt the one that should recieve a punishment.

And that you think that Verstappen did made a mistake, or at least question my view that Verstappen wasn't at fault, that his move was legit, you say that right here (talking about Verstappen)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
If they don't punish a given driver, no mistake can possibly have been made by that driver... This is what you are saying we should understand so easily, correct Guido?
Meaning that Verstappen did make a mistake. That his move was at fault but that he just wasn't punished for it. That's not how Whiting sees it.
Ocon had no legit reason interfering with Verstappen's driving line. He should have backed off when his overtake attempt failed at the straight. Instead he placed his car inbetween Verstappens car and the apex of T2, resulting in the crash. This is something you only do when you're fighting for the same spot, not when you're trailing a lap. Verstappen drove the racing line and Ocon should have yielded. But he didnt.
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      11-20-2018, 10:46 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Where in my quote do I say that you have said that Ocon's punishment was incorrect?
The quote you're giving is about me saying that Verstappen didnt get a punishment because his move was legit.

Ocon made the mistake, NOT Verstappen. Verstappen isnt the one that should recieve a punishment.

And that you think that Verstappen did made a mistake, or at least question my view that Verstappen wasn't at fault, that his move was legit, you say that right here (talking about Verstappen)



Meaning that Verstappen did make a mistake. That his move was at fault but that he just wasn't punished for it. That's not how Whiting sees it.
Ocon had no legit reason interfering with Verstappen's driving line. He should have backed off when his overtake attempt failed at the straight. Instead he placed his car inbetween Verstappens car and the apex of T2, resulting in the crash. This is something you only do when you're fighting for the same spot, not when you're trailing a lap. Verstappen drove the racing line and Ocon should have yielded. But he didnt.
I give up. Bottom line is that Verstappen could've made a different choice (even with the erroneous action of Ocon) and won the race, but he did not. You can label that whatever you want...Right, wrong, mistake, destiny, fate, genius, Whiting said, etc.
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      11-20-2018, 10:55 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
I give up. Bottom line is that Verstappen could've made a different choice (even with the erroneous action of Ocon) and won the race, but he did not. You can label that whatever you want...Right, wrong, mistake, destiny, fate, genius, Whiting said, etc.
Yeah in hindsight everything is possible and really easy to win a race.
At the moment that Verstappen's car crashed with Ocon's car in T2, Verstappen obviously expected Ocon to brake and back off (as he should have, as the rules imply). But Ocon didnt. Its not that he thought: Ocon is driving there and I'm going to crash into him.
You act as if Verstappen is clairvoyant and knew on forehand Ocon was going to break the rules deliberately and not brake for that corner.
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      11-20-2018, 11:27 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Yeah in hindsight everything is possible and really easy to win a race.
At the moment that Verstappen's car crashed with Ocon's car in T2, Verstappen obviously expected Ocon to brake and back off (as he should have, as the rules imply). But Ocon didnt. Its not that he thought: Ocon is driving there and I'm going to crash into him.
You act as if Verstappen is clairvoyant and knew on forehand Ocon was going to break the rules deliberately and not brake for that corner.
You're right. Max had no idea that Ocon was racing him side-by-side after being ahead of him in the corner just 50ft prior.
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      11-20-2018, 11:43 PM   #108
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Thats not what I'm saying.
There was enough room even between t1 and t2 for Ocon to brake and back down.
Instead Ocon decided not to.
I think that as a driver you cant anticipate on everything, especially if another driver decides to deliberately break the rules.


Otherwise: why would Verstappen deliberately drive into Ocon? Because thats what you're implying isnt it?
What has Verstappen to gain by that?!?

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      11-21-2018, 08:50 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Otherwise: why would Verstappen deliberately drive into Ocon? Because thats what you're implying isnt it?
What has Verstappen to gain by that?!?
He thought he was going to back down, Ocon obviously didn't and here we are. AFAIK he (MV) never said he didn't see him there.
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      11-21-2018, 10:07 AM   #110
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Ocon was definitely at fault, however i also echo
What hamilton told him post race.
His cockiness lost him the race, part of it is avoiding idiots on the race track. The more such mistakes he makes the lesser the chance of him being a champ
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