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      09-17-2019, 08:55 AM   #837
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Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
How is this that different when it was C6 or C7?
Mid-engine, new styling, new interior, American-made, perfect timing for lease expiration. Used to have questions like should I buy at end of lease, upgrade to a G80 M2Comp or Porsche 718? No more questions.
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      09-17-2019, 09:14 AM   #838
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would you rule out C8 had it been the old front engine rear wheel drive layout? I mean per value proposition, probably best bang for the buck would be end of production cycle C7 (and you can pick nearly every one in the line with decent discount)
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      09-17-2019, 09:25 AM   #839
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Unless you are a dead set track rat, and even then you'd need to be a pretty decent casual racer, the whole mid-engine thing is really overblown.
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      09-17-2019, 09:57 AM   #840
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Unless you are a dead set track rat, and even then you'd need to be a pretty decent casual racer, the whole mid-engine thing is really overblown.
Well, so is anything other than a minivan...the logic of your statement works against it.
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      09-17-2019, 10:10 AM   #841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
would you rule out C8 had it been the old front engine rear wheel drive layout? I mean per value proposition, probably best bang for the buck would be end of production cycle C7 (and you can pick nearly every one in the line with decent discount)
I dont think Id be interested...

Perhaps if every other ICE car I own wasnt front engine rwd :rofl2:
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      09-17-2019, 10:22 AM   #842
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Corvette is a big car though pure fun factor, toss around wise I would think cayman is still better
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      09-17-2019, 10:37 AM   #843
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Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
Corvette is a big car though pure fun factor, toss around wise I would think cayman is still better
Well yeah, but you can keep taking it further. Alfa 4C, Alpina A110, Ariel Atom, etc.
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      09-17-2019, 10:48 AM   #844
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Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox View Post
Clearly everything is a conspiracy, God is real, the Earth is flat, 9/11 was an inside job.........and GM are lying about the CoG for the new C8............which doesn't really exist because it's also a conspiracy.

Thanks for the wokeness, brah.
Well, anyone that uses 'wokeness' and 'brah' even trying to be ironic pretty well shows what kind of an idiot they are. But I get it: "C8 is the best car you've never driven and woe be unto anyone who says anything negative about GM".

Last edited by nlaak; 09-17-2019 at 10:54 AM..
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      09-17-2019, 10:49 AM   #845
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Originally Posted by BMWILUVU View Post
Why is so much bad blood for the C8? Track testing has shown this is the real deal.
Mostly because some people here are peeing themselves over how this will be the best car ever made by any manufacturer and others are tired of it. The car isn't even out yet and these idiots can't shut up about things they have no evidence to support.
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      09-17-2019, 10:56 AM   #846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
Corvette is a big car though pure fun factor, toss around wise I would think cayman is still better
Maybe once, but the Cayman lost most of it's luster for me when they killed the steering feel and stuck Turbos on it. It went from one of my most desired cars to... meh.
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      09-17-2019, 10:56 AM   #847
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Originally Posted by nlaak View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWILUVU View Post
Why is so much bad blood for the C8? Track testing has shown this is the real deal.
Mostly because some people here are peeing themselves over how this will be the best car ever made by any manufacturer and others are tired of it. The car isn't even out yet and these idiots can't shut up about things they have no evidence to support.
Remind what your angle is again? Do you think this won't be faster than cars much more expensive? Are you just mad that you can't use the leaf spring argument anymore? I really don't recall why a $70k-ish car that handily outperforms more expensive players has you so angry.
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      09-17-2019, 11:23 AM   #848
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I haven't driven Cayman, but the guys who drive Cayman all the time with electric steering says it's still pretty good
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      09-17-2019, 11:31 AM   #849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Remind what your angle is again? Do you think this won't be faster than cars much more expensive? Are you just mad that you can't use the leaf spring argument anymore? I really don't recall why a $70k-ish car that handily outperforms more expensive players has you so angry.
Why would I have an angle? I'm pretty sure I've said nothing negative about it in my previous comments.

Nothing about this car makes me angry, not in the slightest. I don't care for it's body and think the interior layout is crap, but if that's your dream car - have at it!

What is annoying me is people here that are arguing things that can't be backed up empirically because the car has not been released yet. They're arguing that this is going to be a great car, based on marketing info. They're arguing it's going to beat the best cars made, in all ways, before it hits the street.

You know what, it might be the best car ever made, but there's no one here that knows that. Hell, GM doesn't even know it yet. That some of the people can't yet understand that they've been the info they've gotten is marketing wank, even if it's released by 'engineers' is staggering. They can't seem to understand that GM will (as any company will) represent the car in the best possible light, not a realistic light.

I got 'the derp is strong with you' and some wank about conspiracy theories for stating that manufactures misrepresent or release wrong info sometimes from some guy. That tells me they don't want to discuss the car so much as masturbate to what they think it might be. Fan boys are very tiring.
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      09-17-2019, 11:50 AM   #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nlaak View Post
Why would I have an angle? I'm pretty sure I've said nothing negative about it in my previous comments.

Nothing about this car makes me angry
, not in the slightest. I don't care for it's body and think the interior layout is crap, but if that's your dream car - have at it!

What is annoying me is people here that are arguing things that can't be backed up empirically because the car has not been released yet. They're arguing that this is going to be a great car, based on marketing info. They're arguing it's going to beat the best cars made, in all ways, before it hits the street.

You know what, it might be the best car ever made, but there's no one here that knows that. Hell, GM doesn't even know it yet. That some of the people can't yet understand that they've been the info they've gotten is marketing wank, even if it's released by 'engineers' is staggering. They can't seem to understand that GM will (as any company will) represent the car in the best possible light, not a realistic light.

I got 'the derp is strong with you' and some wank about conspiracy theories for stating that manufactures misrepresent or release wrong info sometimes from some guy. That tells me they don't want to discuss the car so much as masturbate to what they think it might be. Fan boys are very tiring.
Sure is a lot of angry talk for someone that isn't angry. If they can't prove that it is a great car, why are you trying to prove that it isn't? Talk about tiring.
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      09-17-2019, 11:53 AM   #851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nlaak View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Remind what your angle is again? Do you think this won't be faster than cars much more expensive? Are you just mad that you can't use the leaf spring argument anymore? I really don't recall why a $70k-ish car that handily outperforms more expensive players has you so angry.
Why would I have an angle? I'm pretty sure I've said nothing negative about it in my previous comments.

Nothing about this car makes me angry, not in the slightest. I don't care for it's body and think the interior layout is crap, but if that's your dream car - have at it!

What is annoying me is people here that are arguing things that can't be backed up empirically because the car has not been released yet. They're arguing that this is going to be a great car, based on marketing info. They're arguing it's going to beat the best cars made, in all ways, before it hits the street.

You know what, it might be the best car ever made, but there's no one here that knows that. Hell, GM doesn't even know it yet. That some of the people can't yet understand that they've been the info they've gotten is marketing wank, even if it's released by 'engineers' is staggering. They can't seem to understand that GM will (as any company will) represent the car in the best possible light, not a realistic light.

I got 'the derp is strong with you' and some wank about conspiracy theories for stating that manufactures misrepresent or release wrong info sometimes from some guy. That tells me they don't want to discuss the car so much as masturbate to what they think it might be. Fan boys are very tiring.
I think if we were talking about some half baked thing like an i8 that six engineers had been sequestered for two weeks to develop that your skepticism might be warranted.

But we're talking about a Corvette. A car with a 66 year history and the legacy of a manufacturer behind it. The C6R and C7R have dominated racing for years and as far as I've seen, the engineers have made a lot of half baked ideas work better than nearly anyone else.

Why would they make the change to mid engine unless it was to move things further along? And why would they lie about easily verifiable parameters that are going to be poured over endlessly very soon? It's not like someone claimed some half wit car like a Kia Soul has a lower cG, it's a new Corvette. People will absolutely verify that. You don't have to believe it but the odds of rando keyboard jockey discrediting GM on this one are pretty darn slim.
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      09-17-2019, 01:38 PM   #852
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lols just for fun ...

The Ferrari Tributo 0-100km/h is 2.9 sec just like the C8. Does it mean it's a $300K overpriced Italian junk :-)
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      09-17-2019, 02:14 PM   #853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Why would they make the change to mid engine unless it was to move things further along? And why would they lie about easily verifiable parameters that are going to be poured over endlessly very soon?
This one is simple to explain. Jim Mero, the Corvette test engineer mostly responsible for the chassis tuning of the C5-C7 generation, sums it up succinctly.

I'm paraphrasing here, but in an interview on a podcast he said "we benched marked the C7 against all the best mid and rear engine cars available on the market, and the C7 beat every single one of them. Why would you need to move the engine behind the driver if the front engine layout is already BETTER?"

He later followed up with some clarifications, as he's no longer involved in the C8 development, by saying that he's got 100% faith that the Corvette engineering team will get the C8 right.

Now for my opinion and interpretation. We all know Corvette as a brand may be destined to end up like Harley Davidson. Another iconic brand with decades of "perfecting" a specific formula for their success. Selling to an aging, predominately male population well past the prime of their earning age, but having disposable income because they're old enough not to have to deal with sending kids to college as a way to recapture their youth. White this may not be the primary buying demographic of Corvettes like the C2-C4, this has CERTAINLY become the primary buying demographic of the C5, C6, and C7 and it's gotten progressively OLDER. And they can see the end result unfolding in front of them in Harley Davidson sales, as the age gets older and older, without younger buyers to supplement, it's not sustainable. HD sales has tanked and will continue to tank as the brand is now basically associated with old white male well past their earning prime that needs something more powerful between their legs than what god gave them.

And they see what Porsche is doing (rumor has it multiple 911s and Cayman models were bought as benchmarks), as 911 owner demographic is about 12 years younger than Corvette owner demographic, and Cayman/Boxster demographic is nearly 2 decades younger than your average Corvette buyers. That means, most people who bought the last generation Corvette, the C7, the percentage of the same buyers buying 1 or 2 more generation of Corvette in the next 12-15 years is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than your average Porsche and BMW buyers.

The move to mid engine wasn't driven by performance, but primarily by the need to attract younger, and significantly YOUNGER buyers. At $60K it's only marginally more expensive than the Zupra, and slots in between say, an M2 and a well equipped Cayman S in terms of pricing. And all three of the cars listed are likely to attract a much, MUCH younger demographic than had Corvette basically followed recipe and came out with a C8 that is but an evolutionary change from the C7, since the C7 average buying age has actually gotten OLDER than the C6. They're but doom to repeat the Harley Davidson experience.


_________________________________________________



Notice GM released the 0-60 time but not a slew of other critical performance information? Like Nurburgring time (they have it as the mule has been testing there for MONTHS), 0-100, 1/4mile, 60-0, lateral G...etc? They have all these info, but chose not to release them because they're probably not as impressive as the gain in 0-60 time compared to the previous generations of Corvettes, that what they hope the general public perceives as a paradigm shift, that perception will continue to generate buzz because as soon as they make it official, that the lap times, the lateral Gs, the stopping distances...etc that you can measure against are only marginally better, or even slightly WORSE (as the speculation on the 115ft braking distance compared to the 90 of previous generation has shown), then you lose the buzz that will attract the younger buyers as they're not nearly as loyal as the owners of other Corvettes to blindly buy the new Corvette because it's the new Corvette.

This, of course, is all pure speculation. But the buzz and excitement is what's going to get younger buyers to consider the C8. If you tell me, that yes the C8 is nearly .7 second faster to 60, but is only, hypothetically speaking, 0.5 seconds faster to 1/4 mile, trap 5 mph faster, and less than 5 seconds faster on the Nurburgring? All of a sudden the air is let out of the bubble wrt to the switch to mid engine because you lose all the benefits of the front engine, RWD layout and the TRADITION for marginal gains.

And here in lies the dilemma. The paradigm shift of the C8 isn't going to impact the automotive industry nor the sports car market in general. The paradigm shift is going to impact CORVETTE sales and shift the demographic, because without it, Corvette is in danger of becoming the next Hardly Ableson. But again, the problem is, if you compare the C8 to the C7, if the C7 is already beating all of its rivals on lap time around VIR for 2/3rd the price, how much BETTER does the C8 have to be to justify the move to mid engine? That's what everyone is speculating on, and based on my own experience, and some basic logic, IF C8 is all it's cracked up to be, like how everyone thinks that it's going to be putting prior generation Corvette to shame...then by transitive property, the base C8 would be putting up equivalent numbers to cars like the Porsche GT3 RS and McLaren P1.

And I just don't see that.

So back to Jim Mero's paraphrased quote. Guy's been a straight shooter, has 40+ years of chassis development history and experience, and he doesn't work for GM anymore. I think his sentiment, and I'm putting words in his mouth here, is that the Corvette front engine, rear drive chassis is already a world class chassis. Moving the engine rear-ward behind the driver isn't a guarantee that it'll be SIGNIFICANTLY better.

In fact, my speculation is, with the 200+ lbs weight gain, it's going to struggle matching or beating C7 numbers, and part of that IS because I have a C7, but logic and physics simply dictate so. 200 lbs is a lot of mass for engineering to overcome, while it may be beneficial to acceleration if the weight is placed correctly AND with right gearing, you can't hide that mass in corners nor under braking.
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      09-17-2019, 02:37 PM   #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Unless you are a dead set track rat, and even then you'd need to be a pretty decent casual racer, the whole mid-engine thing is really overblown.
I guess you've never driven a Cayman or anything like it.
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      09-17-2019, 02:37 PM   #855
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Those are some solid thoughts, I appreciate the time that went into that. And I agree that the weight gain is a very concerning factor in all of this.

I do think the C7 was certainly capable against the competition, but had a much stronger ability to expose poor driving than the mid/rear competition. The C8 should allow the average weekend Tom to look better even if it doesn't provide the likes of Randy Pobst a huge advantage over the C7.
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      09-17-2019, 02:38 PM   #856
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Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
Corvette is a big car though pure fun factor, toss around wise I would think cayman is still better
Did you realize the C7 is essentially the same size as the M2? Yes, the C8 is longer though.
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      09-17-2019, 02:40 PM   #857
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Maybe once, but the Cayman lost most of it's luster for me when they killed the steering feel and stuck Turbos on it. It went from one of my most desired cars to... meh.
To each their own. I feel the 982 is much more driveable than the 981 was and has more usable power.
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      09-17-2019, 02:41 PM   #858
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This one is simple to explain. <<snip>>
Phenomenal post ... especially with the comparison to Harley-Davidson ...

... because even Harley-Davidson is making an EV nowadays. Why? To attract significantly younger buyers.

I'm beyond convinced that eventual hybridization is a primary reason for the platform switch, and your weight-gain wrap-up is, to me, further evidence for it.

We all know what electrification does to a chassis -- including the weight addition. If the weight that's already there is 'optimized' regarding location, the added hardware can be that much more easily balanced and tuned. We all also know that a mid-engine drivetrain is generally the most compact possible, particularly with RWD. The bits and pieces in and around the front wheels can easily be reconfigured to enable significant hybridization.
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