10-16-2022, 07:22 AM | #23 | ||
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Let's focus all our efforts on EVs and ignore the water crisis, lead poisoning in flint, healthcare, education, voting equality, getting involved in Ukraine, student debt, etc., etc, etc. oh and let's also ignore all the environmental and societal damage done to many third world nations by mining for raw materials used for battery production and a greater dependence on China for battery manufacturing. This is all ass backwards. |
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10-16-2022, 07:40 AM | #24 | |||
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We have far larger issues at hand, including world hunger, unsustainable environmental standards such as way too much livestock farming, destruction of forests and greenery, as well as a money-based lust for warfare and wealth control. Making cars more environmentally friendly?? Sure why not. But it's hardly the biggest issue we have it comes way down the line and if it comes to that we should rethink transportation altogether like the video states
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10-16-2022, 09:24 AM | #25 | ||
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The shift to EVs, including US sourcing rules in the latest tax incentives, are aimed at blunting our dependency on Chinese manufacturing. The US still has a sizable automotive manufacturing sector. If we ignore the EV shift, as I said earlier, then we’ll lose that sector to China. Guaranteed. As China is the largest auto market now both in size and growth. Car manufacturers no longer focus on the US. That’s business 101. Quote:
The “we have more important issues” logical fallacy. |
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10-16-2022, 09:36 AM | #26 | |||
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Is there any moral culpability or accountability or does that go by the wayside bc we have to keep up with China while ignoring the major domestic problems mentioned in my previous post and touched on by @10"? And I disagree, we don't historically walk and chew gum at the same time. If in fact we were walking and chewing gum, there would be a more nuanced use of EVs as mentioned in the video with EVs being one of the potential transportation options. R&D into Hydrogen or synthetic gasoline would create new jobs without exploiting poor countries and the environment, remove our dependence on oil, and work with existing gas infrastructure. |
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10-16-2022, 10:09 AM | #27 | |
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So everyone that was pessimistic about LCD's in the late 1800's were vindicated because they were right for multiple generations, right? Other supporting technology wasn't available to make them truly viable. The first cars were EV's. Other supporting technology wasn't available to make them truly viable. We are now having the same discussion about switching to exclusive EV's, Counting on yet-to-be-invented technology. Yet there is optimism despite other supporting technology that is not available to make them truly viable. Counting on yet-to-be-invented technology is historically foolish. |
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10-16-2022, 10:42 AM | #28 | |
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Now imagine disrupting the social structures and financial realities by straining our power infrastructure, limiting access to resources, and creating dependency for those that can't "evolve" to this new world order, all for the purpose of solving #8 on the list. There is competition for our actions and resources, and we are diverting them to a lower priority. We we are doing this based on hopes and dreams. It seems there are better things to sacrifice society for. And the strange thing is, this sacrifice is addressing just one small piece of #8. There have been numerous people in these discussion here that are pro :do-it-now that have admitted and acknowledged there will be a cost to this decision to do-it-now, and they are fine with it. Do they not care about 1-7 on that list? It's about priorities. I think we all know this is inevitable, but some of us feel we have better priorities, and forcing progress based on hopes and dreams is illogical. If progress is inevitable, and forcing it objectively costs more, all while we have other real problems to solve is just irrational, and even borders on immoral. |
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10-16-2022, 10:47 AM | #29 | ||
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We're already trying to source Lithium from countries like Canada. There are also attempts to commercialize recycling. Those efforts need to continue. Quote:
When Windows Mobile smartphones were all the rage in 2005 among the geeky crowd there were a long list of technical challenges that made people certain that it wouldn't be mainstream anytime soon. Battery life was poor, CPU performance was poor, the complexity of full operating systems reduced stability, applications were far weaker than their desktop counterparts, and data was expensive. I could go on for a long time explaining why smartphones didn't look like a viable thing to replace cell phones. When Apple launched the iPhone MS famously laughed at them as the technical hurdles seemed too high for it to be successful. Fast forward to today and smartphones are more powerful than Desktop computers and the majority of the world has a computer in their hand now and far fewer have Desktop/Laptops. And Microsoft no longer makes smartphones and Apple is the market leader. Last edited by LogicalApex; 10-16-2022 at 10:53 AM.. |
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10-16-2022, 11:03 AM | #30 | |
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Getting the government involved in forcing the process is designing failure into the solution. |
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10-16-2022, 11:32 AM | #31 |
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Re: comments above about technical challenges.
Who in this thread is objecting to EVs because of technical challenges? |
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10-16-2022, 11:47 AM | #32 | |
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As from a practical perspective the infrastructure and charging times aren’t there yet, and from a long-term viability perspective, it doesn’t seem like we’d be able to support 100% of cars being electric, as is the big push now? Count me in if that’s what you mean. |
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10-16-2022, 12:20 PM | #33 | |
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The modern EV was explicitly created in the belief they would reduce GHG and help solve the theoretical climate crisis. The evidence is in the legislation enacted by California, the US Congress, and the EU. Your statement is disingenuous. Sorry.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
Last edited by Efthreeoh; 10-16-2022 at 08:20 PM.. |
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10-16-2022, 12:40 PM | #34 | |
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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10-16-2022, 01:13 PM | #35 | |
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It's like saying the iron engine block was invented in 2500 BC. Last edited by Efthreeoh; 10-21-2022 at 07:45 AM.. |
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10-16-2022, 02:07 PM | #36 | ||
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The car industry is quickly moving to a software focus, irrespective of power plant, much like the cell phone industry shift from flip phones to smartphones today... It is why smartphone companies are all starting to make cars... https://www.foxconn.com/en-us/produc...hicle-platform Even without government incentives we'd be moving toward an EV future. Except that future would be owned by China as they'd be making the large scale capital investments as for China, as it should be for us, it is about energy independence. Risking us losing yet another major sector of our economy to them. Lastly, even if ICE was not being phased out we'd need to get more fuel efficiency out of ICE engines. Efficiency numbers that have looked to have peaked for what we can realistically improve out of the technology. In a world where oil is running out... We only have 60 years of oil currently known to exist based on current consumption patterns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...n_oil_reserves Scarcity increases pricing and you see it as gas is much more expensive than it was when I was a kid in the 90s... Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid...lay#Background Last edited by LogicalApex; 10-16-2022 at 02:15 PM.. |
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10-16-2022, 03:53 PM | #37 | |||
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If you find there is a problem with the manufacturing practices of a company you can opt not to buy it, buy second hand, opt for a different manufacturer. |
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10-16-2022, 05:02 PM | #38 |
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This is how the largest (or second largest) auto manufacturer in the world sees the push to go all in on EV production:
“EV regulations and materials Toyoda reiterated that he does not believe all-electric vehicles will be adopted as quickly as policy regulators and competitors think, due to a variety of reasons. He cited lack of infrastructure, pricing and how customers’ choices vary region to region as examples of possible roadblocks. He believes it will be “difficult” to fulfill recent regulations that call for banning traditional vehicles with internal combustion engines by 2035, like California and New York have said they will adopt. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we are all supposed to be driving by now, EVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than media would like us to believe,” Toyoda said in a recording of the remarks to dealers shown to reporters. “In the meantime, you have many options for customers.” Toyoda also believes there will be “tremendous shortages” of lithium and battery grade nickel in the next five to 10 years, leading to production and supply chain problems.” Full article - https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/02/toyo...box=1665087354
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10-16-2022, 06:59 PM | #39 |
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EVs are new territory. A new type of car if you will. For the past few decades, cars have been all about refinement. Evolution rather than revolution. Making them safer, faster, more technologically advanced, sleeker, but without changing the fundamental design. A gas car, is a gas car.
Now, we are in new territory. EVs are the car reinvented. That is good, because ultimately gas is not renewable, and dirty, and, in theory, simpler. However, just like with the original car, there was new innovations, and quirks, and issues, that need to be resolved, or discovered. Gas vehicles also have had issues of their own in the past. Everyone forgets decades of use of Tetraethyllead from invention in the 20s to the 70s when it was begun to be phased out, as the prime gasoline anti-knocking additive used literally everywhere. The problem, as it turns out, it was dangerous, lead, duh. Only took like 4-5 decades to decide that was a dumb idea. Batteries need to advance and will continue to do so, faster charging, longer range, completely new types of batteries. Brings about an era of renewed thinking of what a car is and can do, and how we see a car, what we use it for, how we drive. But there will be pain points. The dirty aspect via mining. The amount of mining resources that are ironically also not unlimited. This whole discussion is worthless if you do not consider the long road from invention of gas powered cars to widespread adoption, and pains that came with it. At least this time we have the car adoption part, and we know what a car is supposed to do. Eventually EVs will get there, in the current form or some other form. I personally think we are on the cusp of a lot of great things in the car world. I do think it is still early days, both for EVs themselves, and for the infrastructure to support them, but eventually, the gas car will be phased out. |
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10-16-2022, 07:30 PM | #40 | |
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Let’s conjecture mining for battery components is equivalent to adding lead to fuel. Now picture “mandating it by law”. |
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10-16-2022, 08:16 PM | #41 | |
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Google tried to invent the autonomous transportation pod so people could... Google while they traveled on surface streets. It's called "distracted driving liability"... Lastly Google... "ceramic engines" just not when you are driving. Lol. Last edited by Efthreeoh; 10-20-2022 at 06:34 AM.. |
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10-16-2022, 08:42 PM | #43 |
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Pretty bad takes, from both sides of the coin here. I’d write a whole new essay on this but just refer to my previous post in this thread.
Ultimately with gas in general, there is a push away from oil/gas. Remove the car for the moment and just view it from a purely gas perspective. There is a drive towards different types of energies, alternatives to gas. Some alternatives better than others. Some better than gas, some worse than gas. Now put the car back in the equation. Where does that leave the gas car? Well, we can’t predict the future. We can only guess based on trends and where technology looks like it’s going, but there may, and will be curveballs. Likely by the time we can reasonably answer this question, it will be irrelevant, because the answer by that point will be obvious. Apple Carplay didn’t exist before 2014, we would have had no idea that built in navigation on vehicles would matter less now that we have phone apps that can project onto the dash, now just about every car has that. Built in nav accuracy and fluidness was a prime selling point and development for vehicles before the carplay/android auto era, it was a dramatic shift that happened so quickly in only a few short years. Now try to guess what is gonna happen to EVs 10 years from now. Unless y’all have some sort of time machine you aren’t telling people about, in which case, tell future me I said hi |
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10-16-2022, 08:51 PM | #44 | |
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I still can’t understand your point. One thing was clear: you criticize everyone. Another: you seem to have the answer, but no time to write an essay. (Pro-tip: you really know your stuff when you can summarize it) If you take the car out of the equation, why do you need gas? Lawnmowers? I think you’re conflating oil with gasoline. There are virtually infinite uses for oil. We can’t quit it cold turkey, or ever, even if all cars suddenly were electric. We need oil to even produce the cars… So, not sure what you’re trying to say. It seems you know more than most, I’d be curious to see what you have to say. I’ll be the first to admit: I know the LEAST about it here, I’m sure. Not sarcastically. And I don’t have skin in the game. I like my manual cars, and unfortunately electric cars are not it. I could have an electric if it was more convenient/sustainable. I believe electricity costs will absolutely SKYROCKET once most cars are electric. It’s been proven that when an alternative fuel is made available, prices go up to balance things out. There’s no free lunch. I’m lucky to live in a province that can generate electricity from water. I’m not sure we would have capacity if all cars became electric. I know many provinces/states/countries cannot rely on water for energy. |
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