[ASAP]

More fails? Yes Please!!


https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/st...nds-brokerages

[DocL]

Originally Posted by TrevorM3

just to be clear, you ddont have to physically go INTO a bank to try and get a loan right?

Nope. You get just as fucked doing it online.

[RickFLM4]

Program was never limited to certain types of businesses, other than any specific exclusions (larger companies). It was never publicized as only for mom and pop retailers and restaurants. So while it could be debated whether more stringent qualifications should have been put in place there was also an eagerness to roll it out and was still a clusterfuck without further complexities.

While hedge funds and financial firms raise questions (are they using funds for trading?), I’m not sure why a small law firm should be excluded as indicated in that article. Small law firms and other professional service firms are impacted by a reduction in work and laying off employees too. Restaurants and retailers are hurting, but they are certainly not the only businesses hurting.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Program was never limited to certain types of businesses, other than any specific exclusions (larger companies). It was never publicized as only for mom and pop retailers and restaurants. So while it could be debated whether more stringent qualifications should have been put in place there was also an eagerness to roll it out and was still a clusterfuck without further complexities.

While hedge funds and financial firms raise questions (are they using funds for trading?), I'm not sure why a small law firm should be excluded as indicated in that article. Small law firms and other professional service firms are impacted by a reduction in work and laying off employees too. Restaurants and retailers are hurting, but they are certainly not the only businesses hurting.

its a clusterfuck... anyone can spin it anyway they want... reality is people that deserve the money may never have it see the light of day

[BimmerDimmer6]

Originally Posted by ASAP

More fails? Yes Please!!


https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/st...nds-brokerages

Curious to see how many of those hedge funds applying for aid are registered in the U.S.

[Kolyan2k]

If its 1k per employee.....what if I don't have any lol. How do they handle lost rent?

Edit: as I understand you don't just get 10k, you get $1k per each employee up to $10k, correct? So how am I supposed to have my business going if I don't get shit?

And why don't they give tax breaks instead to help out? I just got real estate taxes for all properties and have to pay income taxes as well.

[ASAP]

its not that god damn complicated, our country is ran by cons and retards... if you want to make this fair-

1) For individual stimulus, if you prove lost wages and make under $200k family income (this was the Obama limit which was already accepted) after 3 months, you get like $2k a month for 6 months... its not much but it helps and is fair

2) Small businesses (under $500k revenue) (if after 3 months), you prove revenue losses, you get a monthly check of some value for up to 6 months...

Thats it... it would have been fair... everyone else could go and f themselves.

[BimmerDimmer6]

Originally Posted by ASAP

its not that god damn complicated, our country is ran by cons and retards... if you want to make this fair-

1) For individual stimulus, if you prove lost wages and make under $200k family income (this was the Obama limit which was already accepted) after 3 months, you get like $2k a month for 6 months... its not much but it helps and is fair

2) Small businesses (under $500k revenue) (if after 3 months), you prove revenue losses, you get a monthly check of some value for up to 6 months...

Thats it... it would have been fair... everyone else could go and f themselves.

Under 500k in revenue? Use the average net profit margin of a small business and think that through. I think you're missing the key point of the PPP.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by ASAP

its not that god damn complicated, our country is ran by cons and retards... if you want to make this fair-

1) For individual stimulus, if you prove lost wages and make under $200k family income (this was the Obama limit which was already accepted) after 3 months, you get like $2k a month for 6 months... its not much but it helps and is fair

2) Small businesses (under $500k revenue) (if after 3 months), you prove revenue losses, you get a monthly check of some value for up to 6 months...

Thats it... it would have been fair... everyone else could go and f themselves.

Except the point was to provide funds upfront in an attempt to avoid layoffs. Small business that lose 75%+ of their revenue over 3 months will be gone and so will all their employees by the time they need to prove revenue losses. Then it would take a long time (months??) for someone to validate the revenue losses and issue funds. At that point, it’s just pissing away money to start distributing it to businesses with no employees that already failed. Yeah, that’s an options but not the option that was enacted.

Also, limiting it to businesses under $500K in revenue would leave out an awful lot of businesses, including most franchisees, most restaurants, hardware stores, dental offices, and on and on.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

If its 1k per employee.....what if I don't have any lol. How do they handle lost rent?

Edit: as I understand you don't just get 10k, you get $1k per each employee up to $10k, correct? So how am I supposed to have my business going if I don't get shit?

And why don't they give tax breaks instead to help out? I just got real estate taxes for all properties and have to pay income taxes as well.

$1k / employee up to $10K is EIDL, not PPP.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Except the point was to provide funds upfront in an attempt to avoid layoffs. Small business that lose 75%+ of their revenue over 3 months will be gone and so will all their employees by the time they need to prove revenue losses. Then it would take a long time (months??) for someone to validate the revenue losses and issue funds. At that point, it's just pissing away money to start distributing it to businesses with no employees that already failed. Yeah, that's an options but not the option that was enacted.

Also, limiting it to businesses under $500K in revenue would leave out an awful lot of businesses, including most franchisees, most restaurants, hardware stores, dental offices, and on and on.

Look there is no good answer here... layoffs will happen no matter what... the proposal I provided is meant to help those that need it most.... distributing money immediately is a perfect way to get the shaft as there is limited proof of anything. What if someone gets laid off 1 month after the sitmulus because everyone already took the money and ran? Well then you just shafted a lot of people that deserve the money. As far as a 500k revenue cap, there has to be a cap somewhere... otherwise again; the swindlers will come out. We will look at all of this in 5 years as a major fail across the board.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Look there is no good answer here... layoffs will happen no matter what... the proposal I provided is meant to help those that need it most.... distributing money immediately is a perfect way to get the shaft as there is limited proof of anything. What if someone gets laid off 1 month after the sitmulus because everyone already took the money and ran? Well then you just shafted a lot of people that deserve the money. As far as a 500k revenue cap, there has to be a cap somewhere... otherwise again; the swindlers will come out. We will look at all of this in 5 years as a major fail across the board.

I agree there is no good answer and under any program there will be many left unhappy. I don’t think your proposal resolves this at all, just substitutes sources of unhappiness to suit your preferences. I always expected inefficiency, unintended consequences and fraud. It happens with every government program. But I saw the potential benefit of getting money to employers to mitigate layoffs. Distributing money after the fact seems pointless to me.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

I agree there is no good answer and under any program there will be many left unhappy. I don’t think your proposal resolves this at all, just substitutes sources of unhappiness to suit your preferences. I always expected inefficiency, unintended consequences and fraud. It happens with every government program. But I saw the potential benefit of getting money to employers to mitigate layoffs. Distributing money after the fact seems pointless to me.

Again layoffs will happen no matter what if revenue doesn't come back, the corporations can do whatever they wish with the money.

The problem here is that shady banks can choose whoever they wish to give the money to by working the docs in their favor... this is fraud of the highest degree and in a major time in need. I seriously hope there is an investigation of all down the road just like there was of the fraudsters after the hurricanes.

This is an extremely shady program... what if someone's business was taking a shit prior to Corona? Thats yet another loophole to take advantage of.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Again layoffs will happen no matter what if revenue doesn't come back, the corporations can do whatever they wish with the money.

The problem here is that shady banks can choose whoever they wish to give the money to by working the docs in their favor... this is fraud of the highest degree and in a major time in need. I seriously hope there is an investigation of all down the road just like there was of the fraudsters after the hurricanes.

This is an extremely shady program... what if someone's business was taking a shit prior to Corona? Thats yet another loophole to take advantage of.

Never said there would be zero layoffs, but if employers want the loans forgiven they need to maintain payroll. Loan forgiveness is a pretty big incentive to keep people on payroll. Otherwise they need to pay it back over 2 years.

PPP loans are intended to mitigate unemployment not stop it. There is no way to stop it because the government can’t possibly support every business. Further there was never a guarantee this program will work because if the economic impact continues longer than the funds will last then some of the businesses who got funding with fail. That has been known from the beginning. It’s an attempt to mitigate some of the problems, not solve all of the problems.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Never said there would be zero layoffs, but if employers want the loans forgiven they need to maintain payroll. Loan forgiveness is a pretty big incentive to keep people on payroll. Otherwise they need to pay it back over 2 years.

PPP loans are intended to mitigate unemployment not stop it. There is no way to stop it because the government can't possibly support every business. Further there was never a guarantee this program will work because if the economic impact continues longer than the funds will last then some of the businesses who got funding with fail. That has been known from the beginning. It's an attempt to mitigate some of the problems, not solve all of the problems.

Yea but that is simply not legitimate... thats not how true open market capitalism works. I nean we can argue that for days but reality is what it is.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by ASAP

its not that god damn complicated, our country is ran by cons and retards... if you want to make this fair-

1) For individual stimulus, if you prove lost wages and make under $200k family income (this was the Obama limit which was already accepted) after 3 months, you get like $2k a month for 6 months... its not much but it helps and is fair

2) Small businesses (under $500k revenue) (if after 3 months), you prove revenue losses, you get a monthly check of some value for up to 6 months...

Thats it... it would have been fair... everyone else could go and f themselves.

They can barely even manage to hand out the money as is, do you really think they can manage to verify losses etc? Government will fuck up everything they touch.

Also $500k in revenue is nothing depending on the business. I had a business that did over a million in revenue and still did not generate enough profit for both me and my partner to work it full time. The margins were shit.

As for the PPP I finally got an email from Chase showing the status of my application in the wage verification stage. It also stated the money had ran out so they would continue if/when more money was approved. Now I applied the moment their stupid application was working (because it did not work for a while). My friend who applied through another bank probably or week or more after me already got his approved.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

They can barely even manage to hand out the money as is, do you really think they can manage to verify losses etc? Government will fuck up everything they touch.

Also $500k in revenue is nothing depending on the business. I had a business that did over a million in revenue and still did not generate enough profit for both me and my partner to work it full time. The margins were shit.

As for the PPP I finally got an email from Chase showing the status of my application in the wage verification stage. It also stated the money had ran out so they would continue if/when more money was approved. Now I applied the moment their stupid application was working (because it did not work for a while). My friend who applied through another bank probably or week or more after me already got his approved.

That just means you didn't have a very viable business model... again open market capitalism if thats what we believe in the USA. If we start going by margins and margin % or doing net income type caps; then holy shit, you will see some awesome spinning of the P&L. Here is a secret... I am a Finance Manager

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Yea but that is simply not legitimate... thats not how true open market capitalism works. I nean we can argue that for days but reality is what it is.

That’s right, it is what it is. And this is not open market capitalism. It is government support in a time of crisis because of government mandates. If we went pure open market, we’d let the chips fall where they may, including letting owners decide what stays open and let customers decide what to do. Because it’s a public health crisis, when the government mandated closures, it stopped being open market capitalism right there.

Originally Posted by ASAP

That just means you didn't have a very viable business model... again open market capitalism if thats what we believe in the USA. If we start going by margins and margin % or doing net income type caps; then holy shit, you will see some awesome spinning of the P&L. Here is a secret... I am a Finance Manager

A $500k business is limited to employment of the owner(s) plus maybe a couple / few employees. If the program was limited to only $500k businesses it would really not make much sense because it would involve tons of red tape to save a very small number of jobs per application. Plus as stated earlier, if you need to wait 3 mos. to prove some level of revenue declines and wait for it to be confirmed (also not open market capitalism by the way), many of those businesses would be gone.

[hubbahubba]

If the loans were to be given out after 3 months of losses, there is no way I could have been able to keep all employees on payroll. We have cut shifts of many staff, and scaled it to what our revs are now. Are you suggesting that a small business has the ability to float all employees for 3 months? Mine isn't, and I assure you that prior to this mess it was an incredibly vibrant business. Our payroll was about $30k every 2 weeks pre-covid, last payroll was $12k. No way I would or could front that much with an 80% drop in revs without having cash in hand first from the ppp. I am not a bank, and I would venture a guess that a huge percentage of small businesses are in the same boat.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by hubbahubba

If the loans were to be given out after 3 months of losses, there is no way I could have been able to keep all employees on payroll. We have cut shifts of many staff, and scaled it to what our revs are now. Are you suggesting that a small business has the ability to float all employees for 3 months? Mine isn't, and I assure you that prior to this mess it was an incredibly vibrant business. Our payroll was about $30k every 2 weeks pre-covid, last payroll was $12k. No way I would or could front that much with an 80% drop in revs without having cash in hand first from the ppp. I am not a bank, and I would venture a guess that a huge percentage of small businesses are in the same boat.

That was suggestion 2 in post 139.

[DocL]

The definition of a small company is too broad. And to me, a company with 500 employees is a large one. I would say a company with less than 50 should be the limit.

[RickFLM4]

Washington Post (saw on Apple News) reporting deal near to add $300M to PPP program funding.