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      06-26-2014, 09:20 PM   #1
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M4 vs TRACTION

Just reading the C&D M4 vs 911 and the M4 vs F type reviews that are out.

Comments like:

Coming out of a roundabout with the mildest bit of enthusiasm, two things happen: the amber DSC light flickers an admonishing warning

And

Out of the corners the DSC is flashing ever more insistently so I press the ‘M2’ button on the steering wheel, which has been programmed with the M Dynamic mode. This in theory allows more slip, but the M4 still feels shackled and the DSC light continues flickering whenever I get on the power out of corners.

And the C&D M4 vs 911

Stating the trac light was lit up as the back end squirms...

I have a modded 335 now, and I don't want to go to another car that can't get the power down. It isn't the fun I want. Admittedly, the M4 is the complete package... Always will be... But I want the power down and blast out of the round a bouts, corners and in the wet too.

What are my choices?

1) 911 C4S - first choice bar none, get the wallet out for 110k used (canada)
2) GTR - not bad, but not the full package of luxury either. - same price as M4 though
3) RS5- bit cheaper than M4, will need supercharger maybe, and loss of feel.
4) wait for 4motion C63 new model if there is one
5) modded 435 x-drive like I have now, except x drive and add weight, and lots of modding to make the car what I want. Last choice for sure
6) S5 modded, but you can't get the power up enough

Is this it?

Anybody else not happy with traction?
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      06-26-2014, 09:29 PM   #2
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Throw on some sticky tires and call it the day and learn how to track your car if you don't. Many of these journalists can't drive.
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      06-26-2014, 09:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKosherStogie View Post
Throw on some sticky tires and call it the day and learn how to track your car if you don't. Many of these journalists can't drive.
It comes with PSSs and those tests are done on new tires.... I run those now and new, they are great. 1/2 gone, they slip more.

I am not sure I want the M now....

New quote from M4 vs F Type article:

I stick with the BMW for the next few miles up the N2 and decide to turn DSC off completely. The first slide is a little tentative because it seems to initiate so easily that I’m worried it might get quite big quite quickly, but not so. And once you know how easy it is, literally every corner on the N2 seems to become an opportunity to get the rear wheels over-rotating. Load up the outside-front, then with the revs somewhere in the monstrous mid-range torque plateau (1850-5500rpm), simply press the throttle. There’s no need to stamp or mash the pedal deep into its travel because the M4 is already balanced in such a way that it’s just waiting for a nod of approval from the 406lb ft to tip itself into a slide. You’ll feel the rear go light and hear the revs rise as the tail steps out of line, but catching it is easy and the brilliant Active M Differential means your right foot is then the master in deciding how long the black lines behind you are going to be.
Turning around and driving back down the road, I’m slightly shocked at just how many corners I seem to have tattooed with two long stripes of melted rubber. There’s one particular slide through an uphill right-hander that I’ll remember for some time, because it just seemed to go on and on and on. I turned in early and almost immediately had the car oversteering, but sweetly rather than luridly. It felt totally in control all the way through the corner, right foot keeping the slide going but in check on my side of the road, just an eighth of a turn of opposite lock dialled in and the razor-sharp throttle managing the rear axle every bit as precisely as in the V8 E92. All the time the M4 was accelerating through the corner feeling both balanced and infinitely more balletic than I would have believed possible after the initial drive this morning.
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      06-26-2014, 09:50 PM   #4
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Definitely an issue...

Right now I'm fairly happy with the 435i xDrive 8 AT w/ MPPK. The only thing I really miss from my 2010 M3 DCT is the handling, and I expect that PSS tires and Dinan springs and Shockware would solve that.

But obviously you're looking for more drivetrain performance, and you're right that this is not a promising route; and not one I'll likely stick with either. So when I get bored in a couple of years I expect to buy an M4. I just don't see a viable alternative right now.
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      06-28-2014, 10:33 AM   #5
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This is an expected, but fixable problem. I would bet that the rear fenders will fit at least a 295 tire. I'm sure BMW will address this if they do a competition pack, which they likely will, with wider tires resulting in better power delivery out of turns and off the line. We might see 0.2-0.3 seconds shaved off the 0-60 and quarter mile from just tires, and more with a more aggressive tune.
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      06-28-2014, 11:00 AM   #6
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If you can't get 425 hp on the ground, in a 3500, and that's being nice, pound car, it's not the car, it's you.
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      06-28-2014, 11:00 AM   #7
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There is a lot of power which is obviously a good thing but in the rain even in a straight line traction is an issue. Looking at 1:36 of this video the DSC light is flashing but the M4 does seem to be perfectly in control though. I would imagine in the rain around a corner extreme caution would be warranted with the DSC turned off or partly off.

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      06-28-2014, 03:16 PM   #8
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Traction control in m3 is extremely aggressive. It keeps interfering and you have to either use mdm or turn it off.

Old m3 or new m5 werent like this.

Car makes too much power in rear wheels and torque for its weight and chassis setup.
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      06-29-2014, 06:22 AM   #9
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On dry roads your ability for outright grip under power is based on the coefficient of friction of rubber on tarmac, with 1 being the max without downforce. In fact because it is directly proportional to the force, and the force is inversely proportional to the area of the tyre which spreads the lead, then in a model that ignores the effect of rubber bonding with tarmac...adding more tyre width actually doesn't change available grip!!!!

Width helps behaviour as the slide develops though because the sheer forces between the two surfaces increases! A wider tyre might hang on longer than a narrower tyre but will be snappier and once it let's go the wider tyre has more traction. But until then they're the same.

This is actually mostly independent of the car but is dependent on the tyre, which as we know is the single most important component on our cars except ourselves


When the road is wet forget all of the above. If wet behaviour is your target get an Audi or a GTR instead as that coefficient of friction cross from 0.8 or whatever down to 0.2 or 0.3 regardless of whether you have a Ferrari or a 2CV. The only difference being the amount of torque available to break that sheer force and to get you into trouble.

Last edited by crypticc; 06-29-2014 at 09:35 AM..
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      06-29-2014, 08:01 AM   #10
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Get the M4 and put some 305s at the back, that should help considerably!
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      06-29-2014, 10:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticc View Post
On dry roads your ability for outright grip under power is based on the coefficient of friction of rubber on tarmac, with 1 being the max without downforce. In fact because it is directly proportional to the force, and the force is inversely proportional to the area of the tyre which spreads the lead, then in a model that ignores the effect of rubber bonding with tarmac...adding more tyre width actually doesn't change available grip!!!!.
Please buy this book, it will help: http://insideracingtechnology.com/booktiredescrptn.htm
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      06-29-2014, 05:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
Please buy this book, it will help: http://insideracingtechnology.com/booktiredescrptn.htm
Interesting looking book. Will do. I was just applying theory so there maybe some inaccuracies
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      06-29-2014, 07:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticc View Post
Interesting looking book. Will do. I was just applying theory so there maybe some inaccuracies
Yes certainly. However not all theories apply the way you describe, there are many misconceptions on how tires work and it is not intuitive. For example. Cf for a tire and asphalt interaction is much higher than 1, because it is not a mechanical process but a chemical one. That book is amazing in truly better understanding tires than anything else I have ever seen.


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      07-01-2014, 02:33 PM   #14
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      07-01-2014, 04:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPACEMANRICK View Post
There is a lot of power which is obviously a good thing but in the rain even in a straight line traction is an issue. Looking at 1:36 of this video the DSC light is flashing but the M4 does seem to be perfectly in control though. I would imagine in the rain around a corner extreme caution would be warranted with the DSC turned off or partly off.

In conditions like this my E90 M3 had traction issues in a straight line too if I mashed the accelerator - back end would squirm and TC would step in. Any powerful rear drive car has to be modulated in the wet to put down the power.
I find short shifting in gears 1 and 2 helps.
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      07-02-2014, 02:26 AM   #16
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I've had an M4 for a about 12 days now, and while I've not pushed the car too hard to respect the redline during engine break-in. I've not noticed too many problems with DSC intervening. Of course after the 1200 miles service, when launch control is available, will be the real test.

Hoping the journalists were past the 1200 mile mark on their drive.
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      07-02-2014, 07:18 AM   #17
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That's exactly the reason I ditched my E92 M3 and went with the RS5.

The M3 wouldn't go anywhere in slow corners or roundabouts, traction was a big issue up to the 3rd gear.

Went to RS5, let me tell you this car is an animal on take-off, slow corners and roundabouts.

And there is no feel lost with the RS5, this is very similar car with the E92 M3, just with improved traction...if you really push the RS5 mid-corners it goes in oversteer big time, until the front wheels cath-up the traction.
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      07-02-2014, 08:59 AM   #18
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It makes perfect sense for BMW to be overly conservative with the traction control system, especially in the "legal-happy" world we live in.

Let's not forget that it does take a certain degree of skill to drive a 400+hp RWD car without spinning out like crazy.

Personally I'd be more concerned if track testers are having issues keeping the rear in check than a journalist on the street.
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      07-02-2014, 02:06 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss134 View Post
In conditions like this my E90 M3 had traction issues in a straight line too if I mashed the accelerator - back end would squirm and TC would step in. Any powerful rear drive car has to be modulated in the wet to put down the power.
I find short shifting in gears 1 and 2 helps.
I am not too concerned with the wet traction, but the dry.

My modded 335 just spins.... and I have the LSD and all the stability bits. I could do more, but I won't spend another penny on this car.

I'll save for my next car. I don't want to spin. I want to blast out of the corners and I think that means all wheel drive. Then I get the wet traction and snow as well.
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      07-02-2014, 02:09 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brava09 View Post
That's exactly the reason I ditched my E92 M3 and went with the RS5.

The M3 wouldn't go anywhere in slow corners or roundabouts, traction was a big issue up to the 3rd gear.

Went to RS5, let me tell you this car is an animal on take-off, slow corners and roundabouts.

And there is no feel lost with the RS5, this is very similar car with the E92 M3, just with improved traction...if you really push the RS5 mid-corners it goes in oversteer big time, until the front wheels cath-up the traction.
You have done the same path I was going to take. Modded 335, M3, and now RS5.

Do you find the RS5 fast enough? I have been doing a lot of research on the RS5 too. The reports are pretty good and comparable to the E92 M3, except for steering feel. I may have to trade that off for traction and winter/bad weather benefits - your thoughts on this?

You feel you are losing anything going to a RS5?
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      07-02-2014, 10:17 PM   #21
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OP: If traction is a concern on the M4, I would add two cars to your list of options: GTR as mentioned, or STi if you want a manual. STi is not luxury (but is quite comfortable for basically a race car), but has AWD, torque vectoring and an adjustable differential, and only comes in a 6 speed manual.
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      07-03-2014, 07:39 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USE Z4S View Post
OP: If traction is a concern on the M4, I would add two cars to your list of options: GTR as mentioned, or STi if you want a manual. STi is not luxury (but is quite comfortable for basically a race car), but has AWD, torque vectoring and an adjustable differential, and only comes in a 6 speed manual.
Thanks, I did consider the STi, but I should have mentioned a dual clutch auto as well. The traffic in Toronto is getting past terrible and I am finished rowing gears after 40 years.... I want my FIRST auto, but I want a dual clutch car, and that raises the bar - and cost.
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