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      08-31-2014, 11:52 PM   #1
jeremyr4
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F82 M3 More "Raw" Than E92 M3?

Now that there are a good number of F82 M3 owners, I was wondering if most people thought that the F82 M3 was more "raw" than the E92 M3? I'm asking this question because one big disappointment for me when the E92 came out was how much more refined it was vs the E46, which took away a LOT of the M characteristics that I loved about the E46 M3. This includes added weight, less steering feel, and a general sense of a car that was built to sell more units by offering a smoother ride that compromised the "raw" feel of the E46.

Many reviews of the F82 M3 hint that with the weight reduction and increased power the M division has taken the car back to being more "raw". I'm very curious to hear what current owners think who owned an E92 M3 and are now driving an F82 M3. I'm hoping that people do think that the car is closer to the raw experience of the E46 than the E92, as I definitely feel that is missing from the E9x series.

Thanks in-advance for everyone's opinions. I'm guessing this thread will be insightful with some possible disagreements that will probably be interesting to hear...
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      09-01-2014, 12:34 AM   #2
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I see a lot of threads talking about rawness. I think as any technology advances the goal is to clean up what's raw and refine it. I can't imagine how the reviews would be if each gen got more "raw". We would be left with a stripped car with little to know traction control and less daily driver capabilities.

I think the most raw car you can buy in the bmw line today is the 235. Little frills great performance. Maybe the m2 will the more of this. I like the leather heated seats hud and other comforts. My idea of the perfect car is one that's well rounded. If the M's were more raw I might be shopping something else.
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      09-01-2014, 07:06 AM   #3
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When pushed yes
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      09-01-2014, 07:33 AM   #4
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Yes.
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      09-01-2014, 07:42 AM   #5
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Based on the way you asked the question, I'd say yes. There are other ways in which the car feels more refined, in a good way.
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      09-01-2014, 07:49 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyr4 View Post
Thanks in-advance for everyone's opinions. I'm guessing this thread will be insightful with some possible disagreements that will probably be interesting to hear...
.....I'm guessing your IRL name is actually Pandora and you have made a lovely box, haven't you?

Briefly, you'll find lots of debate on this is my guess. For my $0.02, all cars are getting less raw because that is just the inevitable march of technology playing its role. In airplanes, a modern plane (no matter how basic) is less raw than a WWI Biplane.

So the a F8x has lots more tech and is in fact less raw.

But does it feel more raw (is the real question you are asking, I suppose)? I think BMW has definitely tried to make the tech work that feeling. I think the car is an absolute beast and, frankly, the torque and instant nature of the insanity of the response ("where is the gas peda--holy F am I going that fast?") is part of what I would call raw. So I lean to thinking they hit their mark here, even in a car that has HUD and every gizmo imaginable.
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      09-01-2014, 08:01 AM   #7
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FWIW, I see many reviews saying that you reach near triple digits without noticing.
I guess this could mean it's less raw
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      09-01-2014, 08:09 AM   #8
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Every new BMW becomes less raw and more refined. This is true with all major car manufacturers. This isn't really a bad thing though, most people aren't interested in a car that beats them up everytime they drive it. A car can still be very fun to drive despite a lack of rawness. You need to find a balance thats good for you - in your case that may be the M2.
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      09-01-2014, 01:27 PM   #9
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To me, the E9X M3 felt like a "rawer" car. The way that motor responded when the revs were sky high was something else (the sound was other-worldly, too).

That said, the F8X (which I've also driven several times now) feels like the better car. The F8X also feels more natural as a daily driver.
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      09-01-2014, 01:49 PM   #10
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It's funny how car enthusiasts like us always like "raw" cars. But when it comes down to it, if the car was actually "raw" like a Lotus Elise/Exige, none of us would buy it.
People would start complaining why a $70k car dosen't come with leather seats, navi, HK audio, or why the car has squealing brakes, brake dust, a rough ride, etc...We're all just a bunch of hypocrites(myself included).
We want "raw" when we want to have fun, and then when we have to go about our daily lives, we want to be wrapped up in luxury. And to me, that's what the M3 is - a dual character car. "Raw"(not really) when we want to have fun, and sedate/luxurious enough for the rest of the time to tackle real world stuff.
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      09-01-2014, 02:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nex View Post
It's funny how car enthusiasts like us always like "raw" cars. But when it comes down to it, if the car was actually "raw" like a Lotus Elise/Exige, none of us would buy it.
People would start complaining why a $70k car dosen't come with leather seats, navi, HK audio, or why the car has squealing brakes, brake dust, a rough ride, etc...We're all just a bunch of hypocrites(myself included).
We want "raw" when we want to have fun, and then when we have to go about our daily lives, we want to be wrapped up in luxury. And to me, that's what the M3 is - a dual character car. "Raw"(not really) when we want to have fun, and sedate/luxurious enough for the rest of the time to tackle real world stuff.
Agreed... the number of people (even on this Board) who REALLY want a raw car are few. We like to "want" one but but when push comes to shove, we wouldn't like living with one daily. An E36 M3 might be more raw and fun but very, very few would want to live with one as a daily car these days. Clearly, some truly like raw cars but many, many more think they do but would have a hard time living with one.

Having said all of that... the F8X is no more or less "raw" IMO than the E9X overall. It might be more so in some ways, less so in others. I find the engine more "raw" but the ride more refined even though it is as firm and the car grips much better. Other areas are similar... overall, I don't perceive much difference in "rawness"
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      09-01-2014, 03:56 PM   #12
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There is more sensation/feedback building speed in the e9x. You're very aware of reaching speed. You're going fast in the f8x before you know it...it's almost effortless in comparison. I'd say my e92 is "rawer" than the f80 I test drove.
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      09-01-2014, 05:41 PM   #13
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Thanks for everyone's feedback. I find it interesting that there's a spectrum of opinions. Here are some things I agree with but that concern me:

- Each successive model is less raw - This appears to be true - probably even for a 911 GT3 - but the jump from the E46 to the E92 seemed to be very large in this respect and was quite disappointing to me. I thought the point of using carbon fiber and other measures was actually to potentially reverse this trend but it sounds like that hasn't happened based on my next point below.
- You can reach triple-digit speeds without realizing it - This is what worries me the most. When I test drove the current gen M6 a couple of years ago I was blown away by its speed (it just keeps pulling) but it was FAR too smooth for me. It essentially reached triple-digit speeds without the driver knowing it. It's this insulation and lack of driver awareness/feel that bothers me the most and that I was hoping the M4 would avoid despite the twin-turbo under the hood. From the sounds of it, it seems like the F82 is more like the M6 than the E92 in this respect and that scares me - a LOT. I haven't test driven the M4 but I'm still hoping it will be involving enough (in terms of raw feel) to be something that is a very salient experience for the driver EVERY second. Just like my E92 with the OEM Exhaust Mod. I have no issue swapping the exhaust on the F82 as long as it results in a car that is as visceral as the E92. Anyhow, hopefully that will be the case.
- Most of us wouldn't buy the F82 if it truly was raw - I think there were some good points made regarding where you draw the line as to what "raw" means. I personally would still want leather, a radio/stereo, A/C, etc, all of which can be had on an E36 or E46 for example. Of course, this is very subjective but I personally believe you can easily keep some of the creature comforts while offering a driver some great road and engine feel (ie. 911 GT3). I guess what I'm trying to say is that as each successive model becomes less "raw", it gravitates closer to being a GT and further away from being a sports car. That's my biggest fear. I didn't like the huge jump the E92 took in this direction so I'm hoping the F82 at least maintained a similar place on the spectrum. I would say the average person probably would agree that it does based on the responses above but, of course, I'll have to try it for myself.

For what it's worth, if I didn't have 2 kids and a wife who I take in my car on the weekend then I would probably buy either a 991 S or a 991 GT3. But, until the new C63 comes out (I hate the current transmission in that car), there's really not that much else to consider with 4 proper/usual seats in this category that is the same value/fun/power as the M3. If anyone has any suggestions feel free to pass them along. I don't consider the 911 an option, as the back seats really aren't useable...

I look forward to some other perspectives on this so feel free to add your 2 cents here if you haven't already - thanks!
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      09-01-2014, 07:04 PM   #14
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I only want a raw car as long as I have a tame dd. I always thought my e90 m3 felt raw compared to my wife's Merc. Then I picked up a 2004 Jeep grand cherokee V8 as a second car for myself...now that thing is raw and mechanical. Like someone said the newer cars are more refined in general.
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      09-01-2014, 08:58 PM   #15
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I wouldn't say an m4 feels like an m6

The m6 is 4200 lbs vs a 3500 lb m4, that does a lot for loss of rawness and feeling isolated
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      09-01-2014, 09:07 PM   #16
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Neither car is raw. They're both comfortable street cars. If you want raw drive an E30. That's raw.

Last edited by M3 Esq; 09-02-2014 at 08:54 AM..
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      09-01-2014, 11:44 PM   #17
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