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      10-08-2014, 05:14 AM   #1
jbraslins
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High pressure fuel pump issue and dct malfuncton

So lately my car been a little off. It started feeling weaker at low rpms (1800-3500), and then when it would get into 4k range, i'd get a major surge of power.

In higher gears, when cruising around 2k rpm, i could give it 100% throttle, and for good 2-3 seconds, i'd have nothing, then it would start to surge.

It felt as if turbo lag increased and there were no more anti-lag feature. One of the best parts of new M3 was apprent absence of turbo lag. And now it was beyond obvious.

I was contemplating taking it to dealer, but dreaded the "my car seems down on power" conversation. Or "my anti-lag seems broken".

Interestingly, at high rpms it was business as usual. So most issues were apparent during regular daily commute and not so much spirited driving. There were no codes/CEL. During DE on track staying above 4k, car was perfect and i had same top speeds at the end of straights.

Then at a DE this weekend, i got a dct error. Car displayed DCT malfunction and went into limp mode. 30 minutes later it was back to normal, as if nothing happened, I thought it just overheated.

Dan @ BPC scanned my car with ista, and we found no dct related codes/events. But surprisingly we found a high pressure fuel pump event in DME. Low rail pressure. 3.36 bar instead of minimum of 4. But as i said, there was no CEL.

At this point we took it to dealer to have them check it out. They ran diagnostic plan and with bmw na approval are replacing hp fuel pump under warranty.

I was told there are only 2 in country and i was lucky to snag one of them.

Overall, things are being handled super nice, so huge thanks to BPC, Leith BMW and BMW NA.

The real question remains, will that fix my low end issue, or is there something else going on.

And what the heck happened with DCT. It was my 3rd DE weeekend and i had zero issues before. Never had dct issues in e90 either. If indeed it just overheated, that is kind of disappointing, being most track ready m3 to date and all.
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      10-08-2014, 05:38 AM   #2
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Interresting, so we are still seeing issues with those darn fuel pumps .

Maybe the DCT just got thrown off by the engine misbehaving
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      10-08-2014, 05:42 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Interresting, so we are still seeing issues with those darn fuel pumps .

Maybe the DCT just got thrown off by the engine misbehaving
If i have my info right, new m3 has a brand new two stage hp fuel pump. I am also hoping you're right about dct tripping from engine issue.
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      10-08-2014, 06:22 PM   #4
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So two fuel pumps have been replaced, codes cleared, car seems ok on paper. But the turbo-lag is still VERY pronounced, nothing like what car used to be like.

Wonder if some anti-lag related component is not working

Not sure what to do now.
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      10-08-2014, 08:17 PM   #5
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did they check for boost leaks? pretty sure one of the first recalls was for hose clamps to keep to intercooler hoses tight...20lbs is a decent amount of pressure could just be a small leak, makes the turbos work overtime (overspinning = high egt's = lean condition?) at the track especially to keep boost...just a thought good luck haven't even tracked mine yet but love VIR been there many times
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      10-09-2014, 07:47 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitstap View Post
did they check for boost leaks? pretty sure one of the first recalls was for hose clamps to keep to intercooler hoses tight...20lbs is a decent amount of pressure could just be a small leak, makes the turbos work overtime (overspinning = high egt's = lean condition?) at the track especially to keep boost...just a thought good luck haven't even tracked mine yet but love VIR been there many times
I'll look into that.

I got the OBDII Bluetooth dongle connected and used iPhone app to get a boost gauge. It seems a bit delayed, so not sure how accurate it is. It's also "calculated" boost, and not real measurement.

Could not get it past 15psi, should not it be 20?

It's going back on a dyno next week. Will compare the torque and hp line profiles to my previous runs. If I see a significant low-end dip or any substantial change in line curvature, it's going back to dealer.

Just hoping it's not all in my head. Would hate to be "that guy".
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      10-09-2014, 08:26 AM   #7
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If I'm reading you right, they diagnosed a fuel pump based upon an inadequate fuel pressure rating.

That's not so much a diagnosis as a "let's start replacing the historically bad part."

If this continues, check out the parts in between the fuel pump and the injectors too
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      10-09-2014, 09:19 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
If I'm reading you right, they diagnosed a fuel pump based upon an inadequate fuel pressure rating.

That's not so much a diagnosis as a "let's start replacing the historically bad part."

If this continues, check out the parts in between the fuel pump and the injectors too
Just curious, why do you say that?

From what I understood, they hooked up the car to BMW diagnostics tool, it showed an event in DME for low fuel pressure. They followed official diagnostics steps for troubleshooting that, which lead them to replacing fuel pump per BMWs diagnostics steps for that component.

Not sure I see how you get from above to "lets just start replacing things". Please explain
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      10-09-2014, 10:20 AM   #9
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yeah, was thinking that the super high egt's from the turbos being maxed out (trying to compensate for leak and maintain boost) may have heat soaked the trannny as well, as they sit pretty close, hence DCT code...if the car is in fact only making 15psi peak boost right now (not 20 like most oem's seem to be) then the leak is pretty significant at this point, causing the excessive lag as boost is leaking so fast as it trying to pressurize the system...wish these cars had a boost gauge I'm interested to know if the digital app one you have turns out to be accurate let us know thanks...hopefully that's all it is...again good luck with your car and safe fast clean driving
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      10-09-2014, 11:29 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitstap View Post
yeah, was thinking that the super high egt's from the turbos being maxed out (trying to compensate for leak and maintain boost) may have heat soaked the trannny as well, as they sit pretty close, hence DCT code...if the car is in fact only making 15psi peak boost right now (not 20 like most oem's seem to be) then the leak is pretty significant at this point, causing the excessive lag as boost is leaking so fast as it trying to pressurize the system...
I am no mechanic, but that seems like a plausible explanation that mimics what I am actually experiencing as a driver. Let's hope this is it. I'll forward this to my techs. Thank you.
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      10-09-2014, 11:43 AM   #11
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When I went in for my 1200 mi break-in last week the computer showed the fuel pump as a recall (had no idea)and they changed it..... i didnt notice it was off cuz i didnt have a baseline to go off and this is my first turbo car period, and as you mentioned at high rpm i didnt get any lag... however after the fuel pump change (had it done at Bayside bmw btw) much more power in 1st and 2nd gear and it has improved the delivery of power, at least they know and are handling it.
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      10-09-2014, 11:48 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbraslins View Post
Just curious, why do you say that?

From what I understood, they hooked up the car to BMW diagnostics tool, it showed an event in DME for low fuel pressure. They followed official diagnostics steps for troubleshooting that, which lead them to replacing fuel pump per BMWs diagnostics steps for that component.

Not sure I see how you get from above to "lets just start replacing things". Please explain
Please understand that BMW's official diagnostic procedure involves minimizing work and replacing parts. It is not a bad procedure by any means, it is just simplified and less diagnostic. It also looks at codes as indicators of bad parts, rather than an assessment of the symptoms around that code.

According to what I read from you, the fuel rail was measuring below an acceptable level of fuel pressure. Your symptoms are more pronounced lag. And even though the fuel rail's pressure is below an acceptable level, it hasn't triggered an actual detectable event. The only thing you've seen is a DCT malfunction that, for whatever reasons, didn't even store a code.

Now maybe I don't know the whole story here. But...

1. What diagnostic was done on the fuel pressure before replacing a HPFP? Did they test the pressure coming out of the fuel pump? Did they test pressure at the fuel pressure regulator?

2. Was your fuel pressure code, which by the way did not trigger any actual warning in the car but just registered as possibly a one-time event, confirmed as continually experienced? Did anyone do a real-time data log of fuel pressures as the car was driven down the road before and after the fuel pump replacement?

You've got a symptom that is consistent with a poorly functioning fuel pump in the N54/N55 debacle, and a single stored code which never triggered an actual check engine light or similar, and they went ahead and replaced a part.

I'm just saying....there needs to be actual diagnosis done here. Maybe that will be the next step.
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      10-09-2014, 11:51 AM   #13
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By the way, I will say that my July build M3 with 2400 miles on it feels softer to me at low RPMs in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear recently.

I've also experienced two odd events that were one-offs, including one that felt like my car was starved for fuel for about 2 seconds. It was almost as if my clutch wasn't engaged all the way, but the RPMs did not spin up

Once it spools up, it feels normal, so I've figured it's my imagination - but now I wonder

Thanks BMW forums!
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      10-09-2014, 12:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
I'm just saying....there needs to be actual diagnosis done here. Maybe that will be the next step.
Thank you for a good explanation. Hope your car is ok.
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      10-17-2014, 03:09 PM   #15
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sounds familiar

Hmm,

I've hit 3000km on my M4 last week. Yesterday was the first time I hit the track in this car.

All day I managed to do about 220km. I had two similar events that I can compare to the one described in your original post.

I cant remember the first error displayed but it resulted in power being cut and the car juddering quite hard even back in the pits when in neutral. We brought a few race cars with us so there was a crew of mechanics - they seemed to agree that all cylinders weren't firing properly. Long story short - a 20 min rest cured the problem.

Towards the end of the day I had another issue. This time the power was cut and revs got limited to 4k - with red led's lit from 4k up on the RPM gauge. This time the message said 'drivetrain malfunction' or similar. Again - 20 minutes did the trick.

Does any one of the above sound like what happened to you? Unfortunately I don't think there is anyone that could diagnose possible stored error codes other than the dealer.

I guess I shouldn't be worried about going straight to the dealers, right?

Call me crazy but unfortunately I also started noticing he lag for the past week or so ;]
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      10-18-2014, 12:16 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciomas
Hmm,

I've hit 3000km on my M4 last week. Yesterday was the first time I hit the track in this car.

All day I managed to do about 220km. I had two similar events that I can compare to the one described in your original post.

I cant remember the first error displayed but it resulted in power being cut and the car juddering quite hard even back in the pits when in neutral. We brought a few race cars with us so there was a crew of mechanics - they seemed to agree that all cylinders weren't firing properly. Long story short - a 20 min rest cured the problem.

Towards the end of the day I had another issue. This time the power was cut and revs got limited to 4k - with red led's lit from 4k up on the RPM gauge. This time the message said 'drivetrain malfunction' or similar. Again - 20 minutes did the trick.

Does any one of the above sound like what happened to you? Unfortunately I don't think there is anyone that could diagnose possible stored error codes other than the dealer.

I guess I shouldn't be worried about going straight to the dealers, right?

Call me crazy but unfortunately I also started noticing he lag for the past week or so ;]
Hi,

Apparently there's a bulletin out for m4's regarding the drivetrain malfunction. A certain range of m4's are missing resistors causing the error. Check out the main forum for more details.
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      10-18-2014, 04:33 AM   #17
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Thanks,

I heard thats earlier builds though. mine is mid September
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      10-18-2014, 11:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbraslins View Post
I'll look into that.

I got the OBDII Bluetooth dongle connected and used iPhone app to get a boost gauge. It seems a bit delayed, so not sure how accurate it is. It's also "calculated" boost, and not real measurement.

Could not get it past 15psi, should not it be 20?

It's going back on a dyno next week. Will compare the torque and hp line profiles to my previous runs. If I see a significant low-end dip or any substantial change in line curvature, it's going back to dealer.

Just hoping it's not all in my head. Would hate to be "that guy".

The delay on the wireless ELM 327 devices are terrible. I have several sitting at home, Bluetooth for Android/WP and Wifi for iPhone. The bluetooth is little better than the Wifi, but still latency is bad.
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      10-20-2014, 12:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
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The delay on the wireless ELM 327 devices are terrible. I have several sitting at home, Bluetooth for Android/WP and Wifi for iPhone. The bluetooth is little better than the Wifi, but still latency is bad.
Yeah, we hooked it up to wired P3 gauge (via OBD, no vacuum line) and it read 19psi on one of the pulls. It really does not look like there's anything wrong with the car.

But, to me it still feels more laggy than it used to be. Perhaps it's my perception that changed.

Gonna forget about this unless it starts throwing new codes/errors.
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      10-21-2014, 03:19 PM   #20
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Just had the car dynoed. Solid numbers. Unfortunatelly not the same dyno.

So is the difference cause of diff dynos? Or are new fuel pumps making it run stronger. Perhaps stronger fuel pumps make it feel more laggy due to stronger kick? Probably overanalyzing this.

Going from 369 to 414 is crazy though.

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      10-21-2014, 03:24 PM   #21
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Needs to be same Dyno even then there will be differences......
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      10-23-2014, 09:55 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Please understand that BMW's official diagnostic procedure involves minimizing work and replacing parts. It is not a bad procedure by any means, it is just simplified and less diagnostic. It also looks at codes as indicators of bad parts, rather than an assessment of the symptoms around that code.

According to what I read from you, the fuel rail was measuring below an acceptable level of fuel pressure. Your symptoms are more pronounced lag. And even though the fuel rail's pressure is below an acceptable level, it hasn't triggered an actual detectable event. The only thing you've seen is a DCT malfunction that, for whatever reasons, didn't even store a code.

Now maybe I don't know the whole story here. But...

1. What diagnostic was done on the fuel pressure before replacing a HPFP? Did they test the pressure coming out of the fuel pump? Did they test pressure at the fuel pressure regulator?

2. Was your fuel pressure code, which by the way did not trigger any actual warning in the car but just registered as possibly a one-time event, confirmed as continually experienced? Did anyone do a real-time data log of fuel pressures as the car was driven down the road before and after the fuel pump replacement?

You've got a symptom that is consistent with a poorly functioning fuel pump in the N54/N55 debacle, and a single stored code which never triggered an actual check engine light or similar, and they went ahead and replaced a part.

I'm just saying....there needs to be actual diagnosis done here. Maybe that will be the next step.
Not saying there was or was not a diagnosis done in this case. But the BMW ISTA/Rheingold diagnostic tool actually guides you through a diagnosis and does component testing as part of a diagnostic procedure. It can reset sensors, test fuel pump pressure as part of a guided step by step analysis of the stored faults. It's not simply a "fault code reader" that reads the different stored errors.

If they followed the procedures that ISTA/Rheingold provides and which it can perform (like checking fuel pump functionality and fuel pressure readings) there is actually a diagnosis taking place.
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