[Blindside_137]

My car is an auto but I've driven my dad's manual corvettes before and love it. I want a 6MT next but just had a general and total noob sounding question about decelerating and downshifting.

My dad always puts the car into neutral when approaching stop signs, stop lights etc... I now do this as a result.

This has always made me a bit uneasy when I do it because of the rare occasion you might need immediate power, you can't just mash the gas.

My question is whats the best footwork for decelerating? My naive thought process with MT's during acceleration how I also approach deceleration. As you accelerate and need a new gear, the clutch pedal is pressed you let off the gas. Then once the new gear is selected, as you are releasing the clutch pedal you add some throttle with the gas pedal simultaneously. How does this translate to slowing down? The see-saw type motion "give and go" of clutch and gas that I use for smooth upshifts, when applied to downshifts always makes for a jerky downshift. I tried watching some youtube vids but it wasn't clear. Rev matching is something that makes sense mechanically but not with thinking in terms of footwork. Is it ok to have the gas pedal pressed already to the higher rev band while you then release the clutch pedal? The other thing that's hard to wrap my head around is braking and downshifting but also having to apply throttle for each shift. It seems like the only way, but to a car behind you it looks like you are braking, then not, then braking and then not.. I hope this makes sense.



To summarize -

1) How do you work your feet for a smooth downshift? Is it ok to have the gas pedal pressed significantly while releasing the clutch pedal?

2) Based on number 1, is it normal to switch footing from gas to brake repeatedly while coming down in gears as you approach a stop light, slow traffic... etc.

[jwalker87]

There are several answers to this, and the one you choose will depend on many factors. The full, 100% correct answer is to learn heel-toe downshifting, which is where you slide your right foot to straddle the brake and gas pedals so you can blip the throttle to rev-match so you can downshift while braking. However, that requires practice and depending on your pedal and shoe combination, may be impossible.

For me, while I'm driving on the street, I just pop it into 3rd before I need to decelerate, and after rev-matching and downshifting I brake to a stop, shifting to neutral around 1000rpm. That way I get a bit of engine braking, and I have immediate acceleration capability.

A more normal course of action is probably to leave it in whatever gear it's in, and once you brake down to 1000-1500 rpm, shift to neutral for the rest of the deceleration.

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by jwalker87

There are several answers to this, and the one you choose will depend on many factors. The full, 100% correct answer is to learn heel-toe downshifting, which is where you slide your right foot to straddle the brake and gas pedals so you can blip the throttle to rev-match so you can downshift while braking. However, that requires practice and depending on your pedal and shoe combination, may be impossible.

For me, while I'm driving on the street, I just pop it into 3rd before I need to decelerate, and after rev-matching and downshifting I brake to a stop, shifting to neutral around 1000rpm. That way I get a bit of engine braking, and I have immediate acceleration capability.

A more normal course of action is probably to leave it in whatever gear it's in, and once you brake down to 1000-1500 rpm, shift to neutral for the rest of the deceleration.

Thanks for the info. I agree I'm sure some of this will come with more seat time in a manual car. So are you heel toe rev matching while you downshift to third? Or is there another way to work the gas pedal so that downshifts aren't jerky?

A video I watched said to just blip the throttle by pressing the gas, while you are shifting. But to me that seems "dangerous" to be actively applying gas when shifting. I always thought the see-saw clutch/gas combination is safest.

[iDriveanXi]

I heel toe my down shifts most of the time. Sometimes I will just blip the throttle, without brake, while down shifting to Rev match. I caught on pretty quick in my e92 and feel the pedals have perfect spacing for me. I wear casual Nike flat bottom sneakers or hiking boots and I'm fine with either. I actually keep my foot almost straight and catch the brake and gas with the ball area of my foot. I just roll it from brake to gas no heel actually involved for me. I couldn't get comfy with using my heel so I use the above techniques. It takes practice to not blip the brake along with the gas pedal but that rarely happens to me anymore. Good luck and have fun learning!

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by iDriveanXi

I heel toe my down shifts most of the time. Sometimes I will just blip the throttle, without brake, while down shifting to Rev match. I caught on pretty quick in my e92 and feel the pedals have perfect spacing for me. I wear casual Nike flat bottom sneakers or hiking boots and I'm fine with either. I actually keep my foot almost straight and catch the brake and gas with the ball area of my foot. I just roll it from brake to gas no heel actually involved for me. I couldn't get comfy with using my heel so I use the above techniques. It takes practice to not blip the brake along with the gas pedal but that rarely happens to me anymore. Good luck and have fun learning!

I think I've heard that technique of just rolling the side of the foot into the gas. Thank you!

Could you describe more clearly how you blip throttle?

My main concern is that pressing the gas too much can hurt the clutch or transmission while downshifting. Is that not the case?

[Gizm0]

Originally Posted by iDriveanXi

I heel toe my down shifts most of the time. Sometimes I will just blip the throttle, without brake, while down shifting to Rev match. I caught on pretty quick in my e92 and feel the pedals have perfect spacing for me. I wear casual Nike flat bottom sneakers or hiking boots and I'm fine with either. I actually keep my foot almost straight and catch the brake and gas with the ball area of my foot. I just roll it from brake to gas no heel actually involved for me. I couldn't get comfy with using my heel so I use the above techniques. It takes practice to not blip the brake along with the gas pedal but that rarely happens to me anymore. Good luck and have fun learning!

+1

You will absolutely LOVE driving a manual once you learn how to heel toe downshifts. Look it up on YouTube and have fun learning!! I heel toe all the time, it's good for your clutch and it makes the driving experience so much better!

[jeffro535]

I haven't really thought about my technique, such that it is...it varies on the situation. Typically I'll downshift as I'm slowing down to 2nd and coast the last few feet. Sometimes rev matching with a throttle blip, but sometimes i'm lazy and just let the sychros do their thing. I never go all the way down to first which is probably a holdover from the non-synchro'd first gear on the Triumphs I learned to drive on.
Experiment and you'll find what works for you. Yeah, you'll probably grind it a couple of times, it happens.

[Kool G Stacks]

Like Jwalker said, to be safe don't get into neutral till low rpms before coming to a stop. Rev matching is def key when it comes downshifting. Double clutching is fun and an easy trick to learn for downshifting also. As for putting your foot aggressively on the gas while releasing the clutch, you'll be alright jus try not to ride the clutch.

[Blindside_137]

Thanks gizmo and Jeffro.

Can someone answer this for me then for comparison sake... When downshifting and rolling back onto the gas should more pressure be applied on the gas pedal when compared to how much you apply on up shifts?

Right now those pressures are even and I think is the culprit for jerky downshifts (my guess)

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by Kool G Stacks

Like Jwalker said, to be safe don't get into neutral till low rpms before coming to a stop. Rev matching is def key when it comes downshifting. Double clutching is fun and an easy trick to learn for downshifting also. As for putting your foot aggressively on the gas while releasing the clutch, you'll be alright jus try not to ride the clutch.

Thanks a lot

[iDriveanXi]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

I think I've heard that technique of just rolling the side of the foot into the gas. Thank you!

Could you describe more clearly how you blip throttle?

My main concern is that pressing the gas too much can hurt the clutch or transmission while downshifting. Is that not the case?

Blipping the throttle WITHOUT me using the brake obviously is just me pressing clutch and then blip throttle to Rev match. Quickly press clutch and blip throttle almost at same time to make it fast and smooth.

Blipping throttle WHILE using the brake I just hold the brake with the big toe portion to the ball of my foot and then just roll the outer edge of my pinkie toe and blip throttle. It definitely takes practice to be able to hold even pressure on the brake without transferring the energy your applying to the throttle. Your going to stab the brake sometimes but I've found its not a "put you through the windshield" amount of pressure, it's a quick stab. You WILL get the feel of it most likely quickly. Just keep at it.

I hope I've explained that we'll enough. I'm awful at explanations

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by iDriveanXi

Blipping the throttle WITHOUT me using the brake obviously is just me pressing clutch and then blip throttle to Rev match. Quickly press clutch and blip throttle almost at same time to make it fast and smooth.

Blipping throttle WHILE using the brake I just hold the brake with the big toe portion to the ball of my foot and then just roll the outer edge of my pinkie toe and blip throttle. It definitely takes practice to be able to hold even pressure on the brake without transferring the energy your applying to the throttle. Your going to stab the brake sometimes but I've found its not a "put you through the windshield" amount of pressure, it's a quick stab. You WILL get the feel of it most likely quickly. Just keep at it.

I hope I've explained that we'll enough. I'm awful at explanations

That is a perfect job at explaining it thank you! I just have never wanted to try something like that in my dad's vette. But a simple blip might be something I can try next time I drive it.

[drewnel22]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

That is a perfect job at explaining it thank you! I just have never wanted to try something like that in my dad's vette. But a simple blip might be something I can try next time I drive it.

You are asking about 2 different things. One is downshifting and revmatching. The other is heel-toe braking.

Revmatch downshifting is used if you are on the highway for example. You want to pass a car but obviously not brake. You need to shift from 6th to 4th (for example) so you press the clutch in, shift to 4th, blip the throttle simultaneously then let off the clutch. The trick to making it smoothing is knowing the approximate RPM the engine needs to be at for that gear. Thats something you will have to pay attention to and learn.

The next skill is heel-toe downshifting. Its the same concept as above but you are adding braking into the mix. Like other have said, you use the left side of your foot to press the brake and the right side to roll over and blip the throttle. This takes a lot of practice to get the braking force correct and blip the throttle the correct amount. Again, it just takes practice.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by 10splaya22

You are asking about 2 different things. One is downshifting and revmatching. The other is heel-toe braking.

Revmatch downshifting is used if you are on the highway for example. You want to pass a car but obviously not brake. You need to shift from 6th to 4th (for example) so you press the clutch in, shift to 4th, blip the throttle simultaneously then let off the clutch. The trick to making it smoothing is knowing the approximate RPM the engine needs to be at for that gear. Thats something you will have to pay attention to and learn.

The next skill is heel-toe downshifting. Its the same concept as above but you are adding braking into the mix. Like other have said, you use the left side of your foot to press the brake and the right side to roll over and blip the throttle. This takes a lot of practice to get the braking force correct and blip the throttle the correct amount. Again, it just takes practice.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

Thanks a lot for explaining the difference between the two.

It's definitely more clear now.

[Gizm0]

[mike3000fl]

As mentioned, you can either downshift and rev-match, which will engine brake your car, then use your brakes to finally stop. Or you can heel toe, which rev-matches while braking.

The general argument against downshifting approaching red lights is that it increases the frequency that you use your clutch, which will cost significantly more to replace than brake pads, so put the wear on the brake pads instead. Realistically though, if you are rev-matching as you downshift, then the clutch should not see any wear at all from the down-shift because the speeds are matched. But if you are just releasing the clutch without blipping the throttle, you are wearing down the friction material on your clutch because the flywheel and clutch are rotating at different speeds when you let the clutch out without the rev match blip.

[iDriveanXi]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

Thanks gizmo and Jeffro.

Can someone answer this for me then for comparison sake... When downshifting and rolling back onto the gas should more pressure be applied on the gas pedal when compared to how much you apply on up shifts?

Right now those pressures are even and I think is the culprit for jerky downshifts (my guess)

Continue to play around with it. I find that it's a faster input to the throttle rather than a smoother one while regularly shifting. I got used to Rev matching without the brake and that's what has helped me with the feel doing heel toe. Instead of rolling your foot think of it as a quick yet smooth, controlled flick.

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by iDriveanXi

Continue to play around with it. I find that it's a faster input to the throttle rather than a smoother one while regularly shifting. I got used to Rev matching without the brake and that's what has helped me with the feel doing heel toe. Instead of rolling your foot think of it as a quick yet smooth, controlled flick.

Ok thank you! I think my biggest problem has been trying to just work the accelerator when I go down a gear. This helps a lot. Working the clutch and gas is so intuitive for me when accelerating and so opposite when slowing. That helps a lot.

Thanks for the video gizmo!

And Mike thanks for the thorough description of what's going on with the clutch and flywheel. I think understanding it from a mechanical point of view helps a lot.

[Fishayyy]

I know this is wrong but when I downshift I usually don't use the gas. I just push in the clutch, downshift, and slowly let the clutch back in. It works fine for me and its really smooth, but its probably awful for my clutch.

[VTECaddict]

Rev matching and heel toe downshifting are good techniques to learn (and it's a very satisfying feeling when you pull it off perfectly), but honestly its not something you need to do every time you stop or slow down. Brakes are designed to stop the car, not the clutch or engine.

I just brake in gear until RPMs are around 1k, then shift to neutral and come to a stop. I will only rev-match downshift and engine brake when the road is pretty empty (no cars to piss off behind me) and I'm expecting the light to change soon. Or if I'm slowing for a turn that doesn't require me to stop.

There's not really many emergency scenarios where stomping on the gas will save you when you're already in the process of stopping. What, are you going to rear end the car in front of you or drive into an intersection against a red light?

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by VTECaddict

Rev matching and heel toe downshifting are good techniques to learn (and it's a very satisfying feeling when you pull it off perfectly), but honestly its not something you need to do every time you stop or slow down. Brakes are designed to stop the car, not the clutch or engine.

I just brake in gear until RPMs are around 1k, then shift to neutral and come to a stop. I will only rev-match downshift and engine brake when the road is pretty empty (no cars to piss off behind me) and I'm expecting the light to change soon. Or if I'm slowing for a turn that doesn't require me to stop.

There's not really many emergency scenarios where stomping on the gas will save you when you're already in the process of stopping. What, are you going to rear end the car in front of you or drive into an intersection against a red light?

Thanks for the information. It seems as though coming to a stop is pretty unanimous for leaving it in gear as long as the car allows then getting into neutral.

As far as the comments towards gunning it at a red light or rear ending someone... Obviously those situations are not where you want to be keeping the car in gear for an emergent acceleration. But I can think of plenty, for instance a sudden lane change where you had been slowing down or didn't have time to slow down and need the ability to accelerate. You inherently do this by not shifting to neutral until the car is about to stop or dips down towards low rpm.

Or the situation where I myself was rear ended. I had been slowing down for a red light and realized the guy behind me couldn't stop in time. I tried to gun it at the last second and just run the red light but my auto totally didn't recognize the input in time and I was hit. If I'm in a manual and keeping it in gear I have that option to accelerate.