Interesting R&T article on track coaches

[Dalko43]

This article presents an interesting perspective on the so-called "driving instructors." A lot of novice track day goers get bad reps for not being instructed properly prior to driving fast around a track...and many of the instructors who provide that instruction have little experience as it is.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...y-instruction/

[m3bs]

While I don't entirely agree with the article, I did give up instructing this year after doing it for 17 years.

[Gearhead999s]

I read that article quite a while ago and for the most part I do agree with it.I am restricting my students with quick cars a lot more that I use to for self preservation and what I do now is do lead and follow with them when they are at a more advanced level and do a detailed debrief which seems to work quite well.Here is a video of working with a student in a somewhat hopped 911TT from a few years ago.

[CanAutM3]

There is some truth in the article.

I, for my part, am very proud of the intructor training program we have at our club (BMW club of Quebec chapter of BMW club of Canada). Instructor candidates are put through a training program that extends through multiple track day events where instructor trainers (I am one of them) pretend to be students in role playing exercises to expose the candidates to different situations and contexts. Every canditate need to pass a given number of pre-defined scenarios. If he fails once for a given scenario, he is given another chance. But not all candidates pass the test to become instructors. We simulate over aggresive drivers, not enough pace, red mist, total newb, mechanical failure, connect the dots, jerky inputs, poor vision, etc...

I think the new breed of instructors are raising the bar

[nicknaz]

Factor in a control-oriented culture that often encourages turning off electronic safety aids

I think we're definitely contributing to this.

There are a lot of comments along the lines of "if you are keeping electronic aids on you are doing it wrong" in most of the threads here, irrespective of the experience level of the person that feedback is being given to

I also agree with the comments about lack of experience of instructors, especially at some of the "$99/day" type of events here in socal. I love those for getting more seat time but I think I would have struggled if that had been my first exposure to HPDE (especially if first HPDE car was F8X)

[M3 Esq]

There is a lengthy thread on this article in the E90 M3 forums but yes instructing is not for the faint of heart. We had a kid show up at a PCA event last year with a fully tricked out E92 M3. Supercharger, coilovers, catless exhaust, and mis-matching tires - for his FIRST TRACK DAY. Told his instructor he wanted to go fast. Instructor had to reign him in. He never came back.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

There is some truth in the article.

I, for my part, am very proud of the intructor training program we have at our club. Instructor candidates are put through a training program that extends through multiple track day events where instructor trainers (I am one of them) pretend to be students to expose the candidates to different situations and contexts. Every canditate need to pass a given number of pre-defined scenarios. If he fails once for a given scenario, he is given another chance. But not all candidates pass the test to become instructors. We simulate over aggresive drivers, not enough pace, red mist, total newb, mechanical failure, connect the dots, jerky inputs, poor vision, etc...

I think the new breed of instructors are raising the bar

BMW CCA in the states has a pretty rigorous instructor training school. You do pre-work all season, culminating with a two-day event consisting of simulations where mentors role play with candidates. All candidates are evaluated and either pass or are sent back for more training. the main focus is SAFETY. Not everyone passes and it's a lot of work. PCA is the same. Some of the other independent for-profit groups don't have any formalized training and to become an instructor all you need is a check out ride I think. That's not the way to go and I generally don't attend those events. There's just not enough structure.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I think we're definitely contributing to this.

There are a lot of comments along the lines of "if you are keeping electronic aids on you are doing it wrong" in most of the threads here, irrespective of the experience level of the person that feedback is being given to

I also agree with the comments about lack of experience of instructors, especially at some of the "$99/day" type of events here in socal. I love those for getting more seat time but I think I would have struggled if that had been my first exposure to HPDE (especially if first HPDE car was F8X)

I agree, there are a lot of guys on here "suggesting" that others turn off the nannies. The nannies are there to save you and the car if you make a mistake or if something else goes wrong. Most of us are not professional racing drivers. Even race cars run traction control i.e Daytona Prototypes. No one should be turning nannies until they are absolutely comfortable and ready to do so, if at all. Unless you're trying to win the HPDE Cup.

[m3bs]

There's nothing "wrong" about leaving the nannies on, and speaking from the Right Seat perspective, I've been glad to have them a few times. They do tend to be very conservatively programmed on many cars, not only limiting performance, but creating a false sense of the true dynamics of the car. That last part is the one that concerns me. Once a driver learns that he can drive FLAT OUT with the nannies keeping him on the track, he'd better not turn them off, because he really doesn't know how to drive the car. There's a video floating around of a C7Z06 vs. GT3 that makes that clear.

With cars showing up with 500, 600, even 700 HP from the showroom these days, it's a lot harder to suggest turning off the nannies. All it takes is a quick jab of the right foot to ruin a day (or worse). One of the reasons I quit instructing.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

There is a lengthy thread on this article in the E90 M3 forums but yes instructing is not for the faint of heart. We had a kid show up at a PCA event last year with a fully tricked out E92 M3. Supercharger, coilovers, catless exhaust, and mis-matching tires - for his FIRST TRACK DAY. Told his instructor he wanted to go fast. Instructor had to reign him in. He never came back.

I had a student who showed up with a brand new 850 horsepower Supersnake Mustang and in my presession talk , I asked what he wanted out of being at a HPDE and he said "I just want to go fast!"I straightened him out pretty quick and actually my 2 days with him worked out pretty well with decent progression & skills.I eventually allowed him to get on it up the straight when there were Chev's around us which made him happy He is still at it and has a GT3 now but still laughs about our initial meeting.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

I had a student who showed up with a brand new 850 horsepower Supersnake Mustang and in my presession talk , I asked what he wanted out of being at a HPDE and he said "I just want to go fast!"I straightened him out pretty quick and actually my 2 days with him worked out pretty well with decent progression & skills.I eventually allowed him to get on it up the straight when there were Chev's around us which made him happy He is still at it and has a GT3 now but still laughs about our initial meeting.

That's a good point. The pre-session talk is so important. Unfortunately sometimes you only have a few minutes to do that if you have more than one student. But you can learn a lot just by looking over the car and asking a few simple questions.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by m3bs

There's nothing "wrong" about leaving the nannies on, and speaking from the Right Seat perspective, I've been glad to have them a few times. They do tend to be very conservatively programmed on many cars, not only limiting performance, but creating a false sense of the true dynamics of the car. That last part is the one that concerns me. Once a driver learns that he can drive FLAT OUT with the nannies keeping him on the track, he'd better not turn them off, because he really doesn't know how to drive the car. There's a video floating around of a C7Z06 vs. GT3 that makes that clear.

With cars showing up with 500, 600, even 700 HP from the showroom these days, it's a lot harder to suggest turning off the nannies. All it takes is a quick jab of the right foot to ruin a day (or worse). One of the reasons I quit instructing.

Because of the 700hp cars or because of a ruined day?

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

That's a good point. The pre-session talk is so important. Unfortunately sometimes you only have a few minutes to do that if you have more than one student. But you can learn a lot just by looking over the car and asking a few simple questions.

About 35 years ago I use to instruct people to fly which gave me a proper background & understanding of trying to instruct people in a track setting.The classroom and skill training should be mandatory before any initial student sets foot on the track.The pre session talk is really important to understand what level your student is at and what they are expecting from attending. I have friends who also instruct who also come from an aviation training background who also share this philosophy when it comes to ontrack driver training.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by m3bs

creating a false sense of the true dynamics of the car. That last part is the one that concerns me. Once a driver learns that he can drive FLAT OUT with the nannies keeping him on the track, he'd better not turn them off, because he really doesn't know how to drive the car.

Personally, I think that goes back to the instructor issue or maybe driver attitude issue. You can tell as the driver when the aids are intervening for the most part, and can use the aids appropriately to get up to speed

It's hugely problematic if a driver can't figure out when they are getting assisted. And even worse if instructor encourages the problem instead of trying to point it out

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Personally, I think that goes back to the instructor issue or maybe driver attitude issue. You can tell as the driver when the aids are intervening for the most part, and can use the aids appropriately to get up to speed

It's hugely problematic if a driver can't figure out when they are getting assisted. And even worse if instructor encourages the problem instead of trying to point it out

As an instructor you can feel when they are intervening and if you can't maybe it is time to give up instructing!

[nicknaz]

The best setup I think is still private track days with friends and family, where instructors can be "player coaches" and move between lead follow and in-car as needed and no one feels the need for ego or bad behaviour

But, that's a $$ way to go....

[m3bs]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

Because of the 700hp cars or because of a ruined day?

1. 600HP in a C6 Z06, saved by the nannies.
2. 3 consecutive events riding shotgun with beginner drivers in 600+ HP cars
3. Recent instructor deaths/injuries.
4. Getting old. Need to limit wear and tear on me.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

I agree, there are a lot of guys on here "suggesting" that others turn off the nannies. The nannies are there to save you and the car if you make a mistake or if something else goes wrong. Most of us are not professional racing drivers. Even race cars run traction control i.e Daytona Prototypes. No one should be turning nannies until they are absolutely comfortable and ready to do so, if at all. Unless you're trying to win the HPDE Cup.

I have to dissagree here. The point of an HPDE is to learn car control, and as you point out yourself, not winning the HPDE cup. I rather have a student drive slower with the aids off than faster with the aids on. As a "rover instructor" in the advanced "solo" group, I have witnessed way too many students that have become decently fast but are relying on the aids to achieve that speed. IMO, those drivers all lack the fundamental car control skills needed to be driving at the pace they are. Students often get caught in trying to "improve their lap times" or being faster than their buddies rather than focusing on improving their driving skills. Once a student has become decently familiar with the track layout and smooth enough to be safe, the aids need to come off IMO. There is no other way to learn proper car control. I have seen too many advanced students that relied on the nannies for too long have a mishap once they turn the nannies off.

However, I always ensure that it is the students decision to turn off the aids. I will explain to him the benefits of learning proper car control but will also ensure he understands the risks. Further, safety remains the top concern. If I don't trust the driver, there is no option, the nannies stay on .

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I have to dissagree here. The point of an HPDE is to learn car control, and as you point out yourself, not winning the HPDE cup. I rather have a student drive slower with the aids off than faster with the aids on. As a "rover instructor" in the advanced group, I have witnessed way too many students that have become decently fast but are relying on the aids to achieve that speed. IMO, those drivers all lack the fundamental car control skills needed to be driving at the pace they are. Students often get caught in trying to "improve their lap times" or being faster than their buddies rather than focusing on improving their driving skills. Once a student has become decently familiar with the track layout and smooth enough to be safe, the aids need to come off IMO. There is no other way to learn proper car control. I have seen too many advanced students that relied on the nannies for too long have a mishap once they turn the nannies off.

However, I always ensure that it is the students decision to turn off the aids. I will explain to him the benefits of learning proper car control but will also ensure he understands the risks. Further, safety remains the top concern. If I don't trust the driver, there is no option, the nannies stay on .

I don't disagree that at a certain level you can turn it all off. Just do it when ready and respect the fact that you might have to slow down and build speed again gradually. I'm just reacting to people that suggest turning it off with no regard to skill level or competence. On my second track day My instructor told me to "turn all that shit off, you're not going to learn anything. ". He was an E30 guy, old school. I liked him, he was a nice guy, but I'm not sure that was the best advice for a newb driving a 414 hp E92. Sure at some point you're going to want to start experimenting. I'm not sure how wide open the tracks are in your neck of the woods, but I'm not trying to learn car control at a track like lime rock or the Glen. There's just too much opportunity to end up in the wall. Why not learn car control on the skid pad or auto x. I kart in the winters. Karting is a great way to learn car control.

[BeamerandBimmer]

Great comments all around. I feel that it's not the horsepower that has created the problem but rather the quality of the tires. I was taught that you should learn to controll the car(before all the nannies) with street tires before moving into better compound tires(higher speeds). Today's cars come with increasingly higher performance tires that are much more difficult to controll at the limit for novice drivers.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

I don't disagree that at a certain level you can turn it all off. Just do it when ready and respect the fact that you might have to slow down and build speed again gradually. I'm just reacting to people that suggest turning it off with no regard to skill level or competence. On my second track day My instructor told me to "turn all that shit off, you're not going to learn anything. ". He was an E30 guy, old school. I liked him, he was a nice guy, but I'm not sure that was the best advice for a newb driving a 414 hp E92. Sure at some point you're going to want to start experimenting. I'm not sure how wide open the tracks are in your neck of the woods, but I'm not trying to learn car control at a track like lime rock or the Glen. There's just too much opportunity to end up in the wall. Why not learn car control on the skid pad or auto x. I kart in the winters. Karting is a great way to learn car control.

We have two tracks that are 45 minutes from my door here in Toronto.We have the Mosport GP circuit which is a fast old school track like Watkins Glen so it is quite unforgiving and very skill challenging.The other track next door on the same property is the Driver Development track which is a great learning facility with top speeds of maybe 100 mph with the majority of the corners being 60 mph or below.
The people with the new iron that is hyper-quick by the old standards only want to go to the GP track where they can do 150 mph and brag to their friends about how fast they went.These people never learn how to drive their cars properly at the limit because you find that you are entering corners at well over 120 mph and as an instructor my self preservation has kicked in and I am quite happy to just let them drive around and keep them out of trouble but they never experience driving the car at the limit with no electronics on but going way faster than many real race cars did not very long ago.
If you can get these people to come over to the DDT and get them to learn their cars on a slower safer track with the nannies off then you have a chance to turn them into proper drivers who actually drive the cars to the limit properly.This also assumes that they have completed skid control training & other exercises to make sure they understand proper skid control!

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

We have two tracks that are 45 minutes from my door here in Toronto.We have the Mosport GP circuit which is a fast old school track like Watkins Glen so it is quite unforgiving and very skill challenging.The other track next door on the same property is the Driver Development track which is a great learning facility with top speeds of maybe 100 mph with the majority of the corners being 60 mph or below.
The people with the new iron that is hyper-quick by the old standards only want to go to the GP track where they can do 150 mph and brag to their friends about how fast they went.These people never learn how to drive their cars properly at the limit because you find that you are entering corners at well over 120 mph and as an instructor my self preservation has kicked in and I am quite happy to just let them drive around and keep them out of trouble but they never experience driving the car at the limit with no electronics on but going way faster than many real race cars did not very long ago.
If you can get these people to come over to the DDT and get them to learn their cars on a slower safer track with the nannies off then you have a chance to turn them into proper drivers who actually drive the cars to the limit properly.This also assumes that they have completed skid control training & other exercises to make sure they understand proper skid control!

Mosport is on the bucket list!!!