THE LARGEST BMW 2-SERIES FORUM ON THE PLANET
2Addicts
2Addicts
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum Technical Topics Suspension | Chassis | Brakes HR Springs too weak for stock shocks.

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-05-2015, 11:04 AM   #1
Pparana
Captain
463
Rep
957
Posts

Drives: 2015 m235i
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Jacksonville Fl

iTrader: (1)

HR Springs too weak for stock shocks.

I was running the HR springs on my 235, and ride felt a bit harsh, so I jacked up the car took off the dust jacket and set down. Car is riding on the bumpstop.

I then jacked the car up again, and removed the bumpstop and set down. Car had maybe a half inch of free shock travel (would be none with any bumpstop).

I removed the spring, installed the stock spring and everything was back to spec. I checked the rear and seemed to almost be on the bumpstop as well.

I got in Dinan springs today, will not have time to install for a week or so, but out of the box, they are wider than HR and the standing on test (very scientific) seems to show they are significantly stiffer.

Just want people to be aware of the issue, as it is not visible without the dust shield removed. One caveat is I am running camber plates and M3 control arms. This does change the geometry. I would say anyone tracking the car should avoid the HR Springs.
Appreciate 4
      08-05-2015, 02:27 PM   #2
Iceman51sn
Lieutenant
United_States
153
Rep
446
Posts

Drives: 2015 AY M4
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: OC

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the heads up! I was about to grab the M control arm as well and i do track my car but not too often. I will check mine this weekend.
Appreciate 0
      08-05-2015, 04:27 PM   #3
pikcachu
Major General
pikcachu's Avatar
1398
Rep
5,262
Posts

Drives: M235i (F22 Red angel)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: undisclosed

iTrader: (1)

hoppy6698 was having issues with the HR also, he had to replace to shocks already cause they were starting to leak as I remember
Appreciate 0
      08-05-2015, 07:33 PM   #4
Pparana
Captain
463
Rep
957
Posts

Drives: 2015 m235i
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Jacksonville Fl

iTrader: (1)

I spoke to Dinan today, great customer service, I wanted to know how much free play there should be between the shock and the Bump stop, basicly they said very little (no magic number he said).

They have a m235i test car and the engineers said about 1/4 inch on that car before it hits there bump stops. There bump stops are part of the spring rate and why they call it the suppmental ride kit.

So basically it can be close, but not compressing or touching. I should have them installed in a week or so and will report back on the clearance.

Hopefully this will work, I hate to loose the BMW suspension as it is quite advanced, and the car is only 100 lbs front heavy, so coilovers are not going to be night and day, more of a placebo effect in my mind.
Appreciate 0
      08-06-2015, 04:25 AM   #5
tencazzo
Private
12
Rep
70
Posts

Drives: BMW 220i M Sport
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Thanks for info! Do you think I should worry about M shocks with HR springs as just daily riding driver without tracking the car at all?
Appreciate 0
      08-06-2015, 07:13 PM   #6
eclipes
Second Lieutenant
47
Rep
228
Posts

Drives: 228i Msport
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Probably not. As long as you avoid pot holes and bottoming out, you should be fine


Quote:
Originally Posted by tencazzo View Post
Thanks for info! Do you think I should worry about M shocks with HR springs as just daily riding driver without tracking the car at all?
Appreciate 0
      08-06-2015, 10:53 PM   #7
Pparana
Captain
463
Rep
957
Posts

Drives: 2015 m235i
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Jacksonville Fl

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tencazzo View Post
Thanks for info! Do you think I should worry about M shocks with HR springs as just daily riding driver without tracking the car at all?
It may require aftermarket bump stops, but honestly the springs are just very weak, why have a subpar setup. Just peak in the wheel well and look at how stressed the coils are at static load. I would just swap them out for dinan.
Appreciate 1
      08-06-2015, 11:02 PM   #8
ocN55
Lieutenant Colonel
ocN55's Avatar
United_States
559
Rep
1,503
Posts

Drives: '15 M235i 6MT/ '16 M3
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: LA

iTrader: (18)

Thanks for this post OP, I'm pretty set on not going with H&Rs anymore. I'm probably going to end up with dinan springs like you. I figure my suspension would be covered if anything were to happen.
__________________
FBO M235i r
F80 M3
Appreciate 0
      08-07-2015, 03:47 AM   #9
tencazzo
Private
12
Rep
70
Posts

Drives: BMW 220i M Sport
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

The HR Springs for 220i might be different from 228i and 235i I guess, there are no Dinan in Germany. I was just wondering if it really so bad, I mean HR are quite professional suspension manufacturer worldwide and a lot of 2er installed those springs with M shocks and no issues after thousand of miles so far. No question that full setup with coils is better anyway, but for daily use I doubt it is worth it...
Appreciate 0
      08-07-2015, 11:34 AM   #10
MrBimmerM235i
First Lieutenant
105
Rep
283
Posts

Drives: M235i
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico

iTrader: (0)

I'm glad I went with Dinan and their bump stops. I'll give my feedback ASAP.
Appreciate 1
      08-07-2015, 04:50 PM   #11
Pparana
Captain
463
Rep
957
Posts

Drives: 2015 m235i
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Jacksonville Fl

iTrader: (1)

There seems to be some interest in this, so sometime next week I will take photos of stock, hr and Dinan spring compression.

I think when people see how weak the hr springs are they will be surprised. A picture will illustrate this much better.

I did swap in the Dinan front springs today to see if they would work or if I would need to order coil overs, it looks promising, I do not have the bump stop kit yet from them, but there seems to be enough space.
Appreciate 0
      08-07-2015, 05:09 PM   #12
Liquidpaper
Captain
Liquidpaper's Avatar
United_States
450
Rep
845
Posts

Drives: '15 M235i
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M235i  [0.00]
FWIW I have the H&R springs and I am happy with them. I don't notice any real harshness from them, and I haven't had any strut problems related to them. Also, as most of you know, I do track my car fairly frequently.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-07-2015, 06:57 PM   #13
Pparana
Captain
463
Rep
957
Posts

Drives: 2015 m235i
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Jacksonville Fl

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidpaper View Post
FWIW I have the H&R springs and I am happy with them. I don't notice any real harshness from them, and I haven't had any strut problems related to them. Also, as most of you know, I do track my car fairly frequently.

I had 9 track days on the hr springs. It honestly did not feel bad. When I added in the m3 control arms it lowered the car another 1/2 inch so I started to investigate the front end some more.

Problem is with or without the Lower control arms, you are basically running on a compressed bump stop, with a spring that can not hanle the load. This transmits a lot of stress to the suspension components and the shock top mounts or camber plates. Basically like hitting the suspension with a sledgehammer everytime the car bottoms out. None of this is visible because of the dust shield.

The bump stops are meant to be part of the spring rate, but they are not meant to be compressed at static load. The suspension needs movement to work and the hr springs do not allow it.

If you remove the bump stop, and set the car down there is maybe 1/2 of visible shock top on the hr springs when at static load, which is way way out of spec.

In other words the car is not being supported by the springs but more by the bumpstop. That is not even under deflection when the load is multiplied. I only see this ending one way with the camber plates broken by the shock top or extreme premature wear on the shock and wheel bearings.

Again, I have all three springs at my shop and will do the photos next week, but run the h and r springs at your own peril.
Appreciate 1
      08-08-2015, 10:39 PM   #14
i8ur911
First Lieutenant
125
Rep
356
Posts

Drives: F22 228i MSport
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: NH

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pparana View Post
I had 9 track days on the hr springs. It honestly did not feel bad. When I added in the m3 control arms it lowered the car another 1/2 inch so I started to investigate the front end some more.

Problem is with or without the Lower control arms, you are basically running on a compressed bump stop, with a spring that can not hanle the load. This transmits a lot of stress to the suspension components and the shock top mounts or camber plates. Basically like hitting the suspension with a sledgehammer everytime the car bottoms out. None of this is visible because of the dust shield.

The bump stops are meant to be part of the spring rate, but they are not meant to be compressed at static load. The suspension needs movement to work and the hr springs do not allow it.

If you remove the bump stop, and set the car down there is maybe 1/2 of visible shock top on the hr springs when at static load, which is way way out of spec.

In other words the car is not being supported by the springs but more by the bumpstop. That is not even under deflection when the load is multiplied. I only see this ending one way with the camber plates broken by the shock top or extreme premature wear on the shock and wheel bearings.

Again, I have all three springs at my shop and will do the photos next week, but run the h and r springs at your own peril.
Very weird.....

Just to ask, how did adding F8x LCA's "lower" the car?

I have H&R springs in my 228i as well. It is highly recommended that you trim your stock bump stops. You are 100% correct that the bump stops are considered part of the spring rate, but nothing should be "damaged". I have multiple events on my car with H&R springs and haven't had any issue(s).

Interested to see the different springs. If you have a spring dyno, that would be even better.
Appreciate 0
      08-09-2015, 01:12 PM   #15
rwalker
Major
United_States
330
Rep
1,084
Posts

Drives: the wheels off
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by i8ur911 View Post
Very weird.....

Just to ask, how did adding F8x LCA's "lower" the car?
You can think of the front suspension as a tetrahedron formed by the strut, the LCA, the tension link, and virtual sides through the body from the inner tension strut and LCA mount points to the top of the strut tower.

If you lengthen the LCA, you make the back triangle more squat, lowering the car ever so slightly.

Adding negative camber shortens the virtual side from the inner LCA mount to the strut top, and so also slightly lowers the car.
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2015, 03:19 PM   #16
hoppy6698
Captain
hoppy6698's Avatar
United_States
127
Rep
765
Posts

Drives: M235i, Estoril Blue on Black
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Hampton, Virginia

iTrader: (0)

This hasn't been updated in a while, but I have run both Dinan and HR springs. Both Dinan and the HR springs caused a leak in the driver front strut. Each spring set was put on with a new strut, so the strut was not reused.

Next week I am having Koni sport yellows installed to alleviate the issue with the EDC struts. In general, even the BMW dealer local to me could not understand how the struts had come to leak with such a minimal change (1/2" on Dinan spring up front). Add to that the fact that I have never bottomed-out or done such extreme driving as regular track events. The one track event I did do was on the stock suspension.

Will update more as the Koni's are installed with HR springs, but like a few others have mentioned - I have not had an issue with the HR springs themselves, only the struts. Previous models just seem to have more robust struts than some of today's BMWs?
__________________
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." MLK Jr.
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2015, 03:58 PM   #17
tencazzo
Private
12
Rep
70
Posts

Drives: BMW 220i M Sport
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy6698 View Post
This hasn't been updated in a while, but I have run both Dinan and HR springs. Both Dinan and the HR springs caused a leak in the driver front strut. Each spring set was put on with a new strut, so the strut was not reused.

Next week I am having Koni sport yellows installed to alleviate the issue with the EDC struts. In general, even the BMW dealer local to me could not understand how the struts had come to leak with such a minimal change (1/2" on Dinan spring up front). Add to that the fact that I have never bottomed-out or done such extreme driving as regular track events. The one track event I did do was on the stock suspension.

Will update more as the Koni's are installed with HR springs, but like a few others have mentioned - I have not had an issue with the HR springs themselves, only the struts. Previous models just seem to have more robust struts than some of today's BMWs?
How did you notice leaking of strut? Is it possible to see that without putting up the car just through the strut and bump stop cover? I got couples of bottom outs and worrying about it now...
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2015, 05:59 PM   #18
hoppy6698
Captain
hoppy6698's Avatar
United_States
127
Rep
765
Posts

Drives: M235i, Estoril Blue on Black
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Hampton, Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tencazzo View Post
How did you notice leaking of strut? Is it possible to see that without putting up the car just through the strut and bump stop cover? I got couples of bottom outs and worrying about it now...
The wheel became coated with something more slimy than just brake dust. When washing the wheels, it was more sticky/gooey. I also had small yellow pools inside the wheel after vigorous weekend drives and a cleaning. No change in brake fluid levels (steel lines installed and ATE 200), so the dealer determined that the strut had actually been damaged due to the springs (as best they could determine).

After a good cleaning, just watch the inside of the wheel for any small pools (about a dime size is what I got). If one forms, take off the wheel and check brake lines for any leaks. Then check the strut for any fluid coming out of the bottom (base of the spring) or the top.
__________________
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." MLK Jr.
Appreciate 0
      08-20-2015, 03:59 AM   #19
tencazzo
Private
12
Rep
70
Posts

Drives: BMW 220i M Sport
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Thanks for info, will have a look. Stupid is when I was looking for any feedback regards to spring, everyone was telling that HR are good with OEM M shocks, but now I read so much about bad experience and it brings me to thoughts why I didn't get the coilovers at the beginning to avoid double costs for install...
Appreciate 0
      08-20-2015, 12:13 PM   #20
TreDirtyFive
Major
United_States
253
Rep
1,334
Posts

Drives: X3 M40i
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (11)

Are all you guys on edc?
Appreciate 0
      08-20-2015, 12:16 PM   #21
hoppy6698
Captain
hoppy6698's Avatar
United_States
127
Rep
765
Posts

Drives: M235i, Estoril Blue on Black
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Hampton, Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreDirtyFive View Post
Are all you guys on edc?
Yes, I am on EDC, standard on the M235s.
__________________
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." MLK Jr.
Appreciate 0
      08-20-2015, 04:14 PM   #22
shane060
Second Lieutenant
89
Rep
229
Posts

Drives: 2015 M235 6spd 2011 M3 DCT
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SA TX

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 M3  [0.00]
So is this the case for us drivers who track their M235s on HR or what? I put my M235 on HR springs a few months ago and am starting to worry reading this post!?!? My main concern is that I don't track my car or even autoX it... Its just a garage queen that I drive on the weekends so am I one to have to worry about this issue so early and prematurely?? Again I only drive it on the weekends for leisure...
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:27 PM.




2addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST