[GeoFX]

I received the new M3 control arms yesterday morning and rushed to my alignment shop to get it installed (since I did an alignment 2 weeks ago, a re-alignment would be free after install). Anyway, it appears that the L/R camber is uneven. The tech tried to take the alignment pin out of the passenger's side but couldn't do it. The driver's side alignment pin wasn't touched.

Is it normal to have the L/R camber this uneven? The alignment two weeks ago on the standard arms showed around a 0.4 separation (-0.1 passenger, -0.5 drivers) but now it's a 0.6 separation. From all i've read on the forums, the installation of the control arms should not make the driver's side camber (L) from -.7 to -1.3, right?

Any thoughts would be helpful? Could the uneveness be due to a bad L strut? I have a 2011 E92 335i M-Sport with Active Steering and 38K miles.

Timeline:

1) Installed Bilstein HD struts shocks 2 weeks ago - realigned - -0.5L / -0.1R Front camber
2) Installed M3 control arms yesterday - realigned - -1.3L / -0.6R Front camber

Caster and toe seems to be within specs.


Thanks!

Before:



After:

[Tom Droze]

I recently installed the same M3 control arms with a similar alignment result and my tech told me I had a bent tie rod.

[GeoFX]

Originally Posted by Tom Droze

I recently installed the same M3 control arms with a similar alignment result and my tech told me I had a bent tie rod.

So did you replace it and fix the mismatch?

[feuer]

Is geometrical formula.
Installing longer lower control arm will not proportionally increase negative camber.
This is all assuming the alignment rack is properly calibrated and tech is competent.
Bent toe arm will not affect camber this way.
If all checks out only way to even out camber is to shift the whole subframe toward the side with less camber.

[GeoFX]

Originally Posted by feuer

Is geometrical formula.
Installing longer lower control arm will not proportionally increase negative camber.
This is all assuming the alignment rack is properly calibrated and tech is competent.
Bent toe arm will not affect camber this way.
If all checks out only way to even out camber is to shift the whole subframe toward the side with less camber.

From all the other posts around here regarding the M3 control arm upgrade is that it adds 3-5 degrees of negative camber (whether it's due to the longer lengths of the arms or whatever). Now...the separation between front left and right camber was observed after my replacement strut install as well. So...it could be:

1) bad strut install on L side - installing the control arms just kept the camber mismatch between L and R
2) bad alignment calibration

Are you leaning towards a crap alignment job? For certain it's not a bent tie rod, right?

Thanks!

[CALWATERBOY]

Well, camber & castor are non-adjustable. Unless camber plates installed, and some have camber and castor adjust on the plate.

So. Only toe should be adjustable on your ride, which of course changes camber 'cause castor's not zero, not considered a camber adjust as it's not independent.

But a L/R imbalance is real wrong....hey....something's bent! Poss strut issue or bushing. Black goo o'death running down any bushing???

[GeoFX]

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY

Well, camber & castor are non-adjustable. Unless camber plates installed, and some have camber and castor adjust on the plate.

So. Only toe should be adjustable on your ride, which of course changes camber 'cause castor's not zero, not considered a camber adjust as it's not independent.

But a L/R imbalance is real wrong....hey....something's bent! Poss strut issue or bushing. Black goo o'death running down any bushing???

No black goo of death noticed when i was under the car yesterday watching the tech install them. What are the symptoms of a bent strut? It seemed to ride fine and would the specs before the M3 control arms install (-0.5L/-0.1R) indicate a bent strut? It's still within 335i specs.

Still unclear whether a bent tie rod can cause this...or if it really was a crappy, uncalibrated alignment job.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by GeoFX

Still unclear whether a bent tie rod can cause this...or if it really was a crappy, uncalibrated alignment job.

Tie rods are the only item that is adjustable, so no, as I already posted above.
The possibilities are:
-incompetent tech
-uncalibrated alignment rack
-shifted subframe from accidents, hitting potholes
-combination from the above
It is not your struts because even prior the replacement the alignment was off.
Is not you control arm because they are new and non adjustable
It can not be the tie rods because they are adjustable and affect toe.
Go to the same shop and just have a new reading form you alignment specs.
If different than when you left you might found you answer.
Shifting the subrame is not hard and any competent tech will point that out as one of the possible issues.
I take cars in for alignment quite a bit. Had to shift the subframe on my car back in 2012

[GeoFX]

Originally Posted by feuer

Tie rods are the only item that is adjustable, so no, as I already posted above.
The possibilities are:
-incompetent tech
-uncalibrated alignment rack
-shifted subframe from accidents, hitting potholes
-combination from the above
It is not your struts because even prior the replacement the alignment was off.
Is not you control arm because they are new and non adjustable
It can be the tie rods because they are adjustable and affect toe.
Go to the same shop and just have a new reading form you alignment specs.
If different than when you left you might found you answer.

It still could be the struts because the "before" pic had settings when I brought in the car after replacing the struts and after it was aligned. Granted, it's really hard to mess up a strut install and a bent strut should give way off values...not just a 0.4 difference in camber, right?

Ok, I'll go back to the shop and have them check alignment tomorrow. If it changes, then what would the verdict be? They have 3 machines...same one?

[feuer]

Originally Posted by GeoFX

Ok, I'll go back to the shop and have them check alignment tomorrow. If it changes, then what would the verdict be? They have 3 machines...same one?

for best results have the car on two different alignment racks starting with the one the alignment was originally done.
If it reads different values then machines might be out of calibrations.
Same values would mean that is either the machine or you car.
To eliminate one have it checked on another machine.
Assuming the tech knows what they are doing.
I never leave a car for alignment. I stay there and usually observe and wound never receive a car with off alignment.
I'm associated with a shop that out source the alignment and we can ot allow customer coming back with complains.
Almost all alignment shop offer free check so they should not give you any fuss about it.

Not sure why your results are so surprising. M3 arms by themselves add about ~0.75 degrees of negative camber. Judging by your before/after results, that seems right in line with where you're currently at, give or take.

As far as the difference between left and right, well...who knows. The car could have been that way since brand new for all we know. Sure, something could be bent, but unfortunately no one here can tell you that without crawling under your car first.

If it were my car, I'd knock the pins out on both sides and see how far negative I could get the right side to go...then I'd try and match the left to that number. If they were still a ways off from each other, I'd start to look harder for bent pieces, etc. Since you can't DIY, find a good shop that knows what their doing.

[GeoFX]

Ok guys...I went back to the shop for a free check and adjustment and requested two things.

1) different machine
2) alignment to M3 specs for the front (I probably should've done this earlier)

Here's the readout. Camber imbalance is down to 0.3 which is lot better and Cross-Camber is within spec. I stayed in the car and performed the caster sweep by hand as well. Not sure what the deal is with the toe but the tech tells me it was because it was adjusted using the 335i and nothing was changed. The tech also got a leveling rod out to make sure the toe it was ok. Also, the steering feels a little lighter now (it was pretty tight) and the car tracks straighter (it was drifting to the right a bit).

Here's the printout.



I think the toe readout is just a function of comparing specs from a different car before to realignment with a new car in the computer.

[feuer]

Doesn't matter whether is Corolla or M3 as that is only for the tech to have an idea what the specs are and align the car accordingly.
From this we have found out two things:
-their machine is out of wach
-the tech is so so as the toe is still off
It will wear your tires. The best is from 0.5 to 0.10 per corner

Either do the alignment yourself or go to another shop dude. They seem to be giving you different results every time you go back.

[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by GeoFX

Here's the readout. Camber imbalance is down to 0.3 which is lot better and Cross-Camber is within spec. I stayed in the car and performed the caster sweep by hand as well. Not sure what the deal is with the toe but the tech tells me it was because it was adjusted using the 335i and nothing was changed. The tech also got a leveling rod out to make sure the toe it was ok. Also, the steering feels a little lighter now (it was pretty tight) and the car tracks straighter (it was drifting to the right a bit).

I think the toe readout is just a function of comparing specs from a different car before to realignment with a new car in the computer.

What's M3 spec?

Adjusted using the 335i....nothing was changed.....what's that mean exactly?

Now lemme get this straight. This time you sat in the driver's seat while the alignment was done, previous alignment nobody was in the car? Dude!

Has ride height been checked?

[GeoFX]

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY

What's M3 spec?

Adjusted using the 335i....nothing was changed.....what's that mean exactly?

Now lemme get this straight. This time you sat in the driver's seat while the alignment was done, previous alignment nobody was in the car? Dude!

Has ride height been checked?

He just used M3 ranges to make adjustments to the front as suggested in previous forum posts.

Supposedly the Hunter machines adjust for ballast so nobody needs to sit in the car during adjustments right? Also I manually did the caster sweep while seated I the car instead of automatically adjusting it with the steering wheel rod they normally use. Guess people I talk to never see anyone sit in the car during alignments using modern racks.

Doesn't matter...it was a free adjustment. I'm gonna double check later with another shop later anyway. Like the poster said before...different measurements on two machines in the same shop is pretty scary.

I weigh ~175 lbs. Alignment did not change whether I was in the car or not.

[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by GeoFX

He just used M3 ranges to make adjustments to the front as suggested in previous forum posts.

Well that's the thing....only toe's adjustable....if there's a diff, wouldn't affect or cause the prob.

[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by GeoFX

Supposedly the Hunter machines adjust for ballast so nobody needs to sit in the car during adjustments right? Also I manually did the caster sweep while seated I the car instead of automatically adjusting it with the steering wheel rod they normally use. Guess people I talk to never see anyone sit in the car during alignments using modern racks.

Doesn't matter...it was a free adjustment. I'm gonna double check later with another shop later anyway. Like the poster said before...different measurements on two machines in the same shop is pretty scary.

Kinematic Alignment - BMW has specific ballast specs, a fine tune.

But a ride height issue can throw off any alignment and it can't be adjusted out on our [stock] rides. Find a level surface - I do mean level - cement floor won't do it, verify with a water level and shim as needed - to measure:

Ride height is measured from the top of the wheel well fender flange to the bottom of the wheel rim.

Front Stock Values:

16" wheel -- 22.99 in -- 584 mm
17" wheel -- 23.58 in -- 599 mm
18" wheel -- 24.09 in -- 612 mm
19" wheel -- 24.60 in -- 625 mm

Rear Stock Values:

16" wheel -- 22.24 in -- 565 mm
17" wheel -- 22.83 in -- 580 mm
18" wheel -- 23.35 in -- 593 mm
19" wheel -- 23.82 in -- 605 mm

[GeoFX]

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY

Kinematic Alignment - BMW has specific ballast specs, a fine tune.

But a ride height issue can throw off any alignment and it can't be adjusted out on our [stock] rides. Find a level surface - I do mean level - cement floor won't do it, verify with a water level and shim as needed - to measure:

Ride height is measured from the top of the wheel well fender flange to the bottom of the wheel rim.

Front Stock Values:

16" wheel -- 22.99 in -- 584 mm
17" wheel -- 23.58 in -- 599 mm
18" wheel -- 24.09 in -- 612 mm
19" wheel -- 24.60 in -- 625 mm

Rear Stock Values:

16" wheel -- 22.24 in -- 565 mm
17" wheel -- 22.83 in -- 580 mm
18" wheel -- 23.35 in -- 593 mm
19" wheel -- 23.82 in -- 605 mm

So you're pretty much saying go to the dealer then? Be cue I don't think any indy shop would here would do this. They will say the new machines automatically compensate for ballast or won't check ride height

[feuer]

Originally Posted by GeoFX

So you're pretty much saying go to the dealer then? Be cue I don't think any indy shop would here would do this. They will say the new machines automatically compensate for ballast or won't check ride height

Doesn't matter indy or delaer! You need competent tech.
The dealers do less amount of alignments so...
Again, it doesn't mater M3, 335i, Corolla or Accord.
The machine will not read any differently how you car is aligned.
Please understand that.
I could go with hand written specs on a piece of paper and say: hey do it like this!
If the tech knows their stuff they will do it. If not forget about it.

Your last alignment could use better toe, regardless of driver in or out.
Either leave and forget about it or have them re do the toe.

[jin]

I just had a wheel alignment at an indy using a hunter machine. I had to pick up a part from the dealer and asked them to check my alignment print out. They said it was okay and within spec but mentioned that their machines use tighter tolerances than the hunter machines. Turns out their alignment price was same as the indy so next time will just go to the dealer.