How will the CSL differ from the GTS?

[solstice]

I'm curious to how BMW will position the GTS vs the rumored coming CSL? Which will be top dog? Will the CSL be lighter but maybe a bit less power and no water injection? Which will be fastest, rarest, costliest etc? If a CSL is going to be significantly lighter it would pretty much need an ALU chassis or CF tub as the GTS is rumored to shed around 100kg over the already light M4. Very intriguing.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by solstice

I'm curious to how BMW will position the GTS vs the rumored coming CSL? Which will be top dog? Will the CSL be lighter but maybe a bit less power and no water injection? Which will be fastest, rarest, costliest etc? If a CSL is going to be significantly lighter it would pretty much need an ALU chassis or CF tub as the GTS is rumored to shed around 100kg over the already light M4. Very intriguing.

I am skeptical that there will be both an M4 GTS and CSL, though I can believe that CSL could end up being the name they choose for a lightweight M3 (since the original CSL was an M3, albeit a coupe obviously).

To me, once you remove the backseat you can forget practicality, so you might as well start with the smaller, lighter chassis. With that in mind, if I wanted a factory track car, I would be looking to the F87 M2 GTS (or CSL or whatever it will be) with much greater anticipation than any F80/F82.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

I'm curious to how BMW will position the GTS vs the rumored coming CSL? Which will be top dog? Will the CSL be lighter but maybe a bit less power and no water injection? Which will be fastest, rarest, costliest etc? If a CSL is going to be significantly lighter it would pretty much need an ALU chassis or CF tub as the GTS is rumored to shed around 100kg over the already light M4. Very intriguing.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I am skeptical that there will be both an M4 GTS and CSL...

Just speculating here, but maybe the two will not be produced concurrently. With the GTS coming first and eventually replaced by a more radical and lighter CSL.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I am skeptical that there will be both an M4 GTS and CSL, though I can believe that CSL could end up being the name they choose for a lightweight M3 (since the original CSL was an M3, albeit a coupe obviously).

To me, once you remove the backseat you can forget practicality, so you might as well start with the smaller, lighter chassis. With that in mind, if I wanted a factory track car, I would be looking to the F87 M2 GTS (or CSL or whatever it will be) with much greater anticipation than any F80/F82.

The M3 CSL was not the first since the CSL moniker had been used on other models before it (The 3.0). It is the GTS moniker that had only been used on the M3 before, and yet, we now have an M4 GTS .

An M2 CSL would make a lot of sense though .

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Just speculating here, but maybe the two will not be produced concurrently. With the GTS coming first and eventually replaced by a more radical and lighter CSL.

I had thought of it as a given the two would be consecutive models if they will both come to market.

The M3 CSL was not the first since the CSL moniker had been used on other models before it (The 3.0). It is the GTS moniker that had only been used on the M3 before, and yet, we now have an M4 GTS.

Right, I was talking about M Division models specifically. And we already know the GTS is going to be the name for the new track focused M4, so no point in belaboring that one.

Now, with respect to your point, I could also be convinced that the CSL will not be an M3/M4 at all, but instead a new production "3.0 CSL" model that merely borrows from their platform. This would give BMW an entry into the "supercar" segment without necessitating something overtly exotic. A bit like the GTR was Nissan's pathway into this market, perhaps.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

though I can believe that CSL could end up being the name they choose for a lightweight M3 (since the original CSL was an M3, albeit a coupe obviously).

Come to think of it, that would not be very logical, since CSL stands for "Coupe Sport Leichtbau".

...but with Marketing, anything is possible

[solstice]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I am skeptical that there will be both an M4 GTS and CSL, though I can believe that CSL could end up being the name they choose for a lightweight M3 (since the original CSL was an M3, albeit a coupe obviously).

This would make the most sense. The same tech. and performance but in an M3. The GTS already seem to be rather extreme, limited and costly ( more like a GT3 RS and not a GT3 in lineup positioning ) and leave little room for a more radical M4 CSL without pissing off GTS buyers unless it's super expensive which would make it a hard sell with it's 4 series roots.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Come to think of it, that would not be very logical, since CSL stands for "Coupe Sport Leichtbau".

...but with Marketing, anything is possible

Good point. But even as a misnomer, it's still a lot less corny than M3 CRT "Carbon Racing Technology".

[solstice]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Come to think of it, that would note be very logical, since CSL stands for "Coupe Sport Leichtbau".

...but with Marketing, anything is possible

Very good point, that does kind of puncture a good theory, doesn't it
Back to being very intriguing. 3.0 CSL, M2 CSL or M4 CSL?

[fuddman]

Originally Posted by solstice

I'm curious to how BMW will position the GTS vs the rumored coming CSL?

GTS will end production when the CSL starts production, IMO. The GTS is kind of a temporary bridge to the CSL line of cars; so, it's reason for existence will have expired.

[fuddman]

I hope I'm not repeating what has already been said here; but, Scott26 mentioned the CSL badge will apply only to coupes and that the plans are to create an M6 CSL, an M4 CSL and an M2 CSL line of cars. Whichever gets produced first will be revealed in 2016. My guess is it will be the biggest money maker of the three.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by fuddman

GTS will end production when the CSL starts production, IMO. The GTS is kind of a temporary bridge to the CSL line of cars; so, it's reason for existence will have expired.

Also a good point but I still think BMW would not pretty much make the GTS irrelevant a year or two later which would be the case if the CSL is lighter, faster and better looking ( Scott26 eluded to larger fender flares etc. ). Say that it shaves another 10s off the ring time ( these things are important for GTS buyers I'm sure ), it would relegate the GTS to the dark corners of history immediately and buyers will look like fools. I can't see that happen unless the CSL will be much more expensive or just a name change for similar or worse performance.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

...the CSL will be much more expensive

I certainly can see that happening. Similar to the AMG black series.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I certainly can see that happening. Similar to the AMG black series.

That brings the question, what will a very low production GTS cost you out of the door? $100k or closer to $150k? And how much can you charge for a 4-series? At some point performance will be it's only selling point over better looking more established sports cars with higher status and better looks as Porsches. The CSL would need to own cars like the GT-R to cost north of $150k ( if that end up to be the cost to aquire a GTS ) and sell on performance. It's intriguing how this will pan out.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by fuddman

I hope I'm not repeating what has already been said here; but, Scott26 mentioned the CSL badge will apply only to coupes and that the plans are to create an M6 CSL, an M4 CSL and an M2 CSL line of cars. Whichever gets produced first will be revealed in 2016. My guess is it will be the biggest money maker of the three.

Sounds familiar. But, is this genuinely a pre-2020 event? Seems to me an M4 CSL, like an M6 CSL would be much better suited to CLAR. Even a UKL M2 (including CSL) has high potential to be lighter than the F87.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I certainly can see that happening. Similar to the AMG black series.

Without the time to look it up right now, I have to wonder if the M3 GTS was priced significantly less than the C63 black series? If not, that would mean either they have aimed for a lower price point with it this time, or the CSL would be priced even higher yet.

[fuddman]

Originally Posted by solstice

..... BMW would not pretty much make the GTS irrelevant a year or two later .... and buyers will look like fools. I can't see that happen unless the CSL will be much more expensive or just a name change for similar or worse performance.

The first CSL out of the box will, IMO, be the M6 CSL. Not a big competitor with the M4 world. The M4 CSL would likely be next and that will be a couple of years down the line. So when you consider the time span from CSL concept reveal, 2016, to the SOP M4 CSL (2019-2020?) there may be as much as 4 years there. Sufficient time, IMO, for BMW to end GTS production in a way that GTS owners retain that "special" feeling, and are able to suppress any notion they've been hung out to dry.

[mkoesel]

So you are thinking F13 CSL as and F82 CSL as swan songs for those generation models? I suppose that could be, sure. I still think G92 and G96 would be ideal, but then part of the strategy might be to debut these as Fxx models so as to play up a lighter second generation.

Originally Posted by fuddman

The first CSL out of the box will, IMO, be the M6 CSL. Not a big competitor with the M4 world. The M4 CSL would likely be next and that will be a couple of years down the line. So when you consider the time span from CSL concept reveal, 2016, to the SOP M4 CSL (2019-2020?) there may be as much as 4 years there. Sufficient time, IMO, for BMW to end GTS production in a way that GTS owners retain that "special" feeling, and are able to suppress any notion they've been hung out to dry.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by fuddman

The first CSL out of the box will, IMO, be the M6 CSL. Not a big competitor with the M4 world. The M4 CSL would likely be next and that will be a couple of years down the line. So when you consider the time span from CSL concept reveal, 2016, to the SOP M4 CSL (2019-2020?) there may be as much as 4 years there. Sufficient time, IMO, for BMW to end GTS production in a way that GTS owners retain that "special" feeling, and are able to suppress any notion they've been hung out to dry.

Agreed if we are talking 2020 or later for the M4 CSL. A bit like Porsche's GT3 4.0 RS ending the 997 era with a BANG. But earlier than that and it creates a problem with the GTS and it's buyers IMO.

[fuddman]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

So you are thinking F12 CSL as and F82 CSL as swan songs for those generation models?

IMO, the M6 and M4 will continue on and progress as they do today - as daily drivers. I think they will be picking up some of the CSL technology along they way; but, always designed and priced to reach a larger market.
The CSL's will be much more track focused cars. Street legal, for sure, but, not attractive daily drivers. Lots of new track oriented technology (e-drive, etc), a new, almost radical, design, and very expensive. From a design standpoint, the 3.0 CSL hommage at Pebble Beach, I think, is where the design of the entire CSL line is headed.
That's what my crystal ball sez.

[SCOTT26]

The purpose and ability to bring something radical to the performance segment lies within the genes of the CSL Hommage. BMW and BMW M through BMWi are now at an exciting stage even ahead of their competitors to introduce an exciting new linage of CSL remodels evoking the very same reasons they were introduced in the first place to develop Motorsport technology and innovation for the road.

If we look at the M4 GTS its lighter,faster and more precise than the standard car plus it uses very new exciting innovation with Water Injection technology to distinguish it further from the standard M4 Coupe as does the increase in weight reduction innovation and the more direct response of the dynamics.
You might question what purpose for an M4 CSL?

It could use the same ideas but distinguish further by an increase in weight reduction innovation but incorporate some of BMWs latest thinking in getting the best of performance with an e-boost system demonstrated on the CSL Hommage. And that innovation is being tested on M4s today.

As everything begins for Motorsport BMW M have fabricated chassis sections and components out of CFRP including actual wheels and steering wheels as well as areas in the suspension out of CFRP for Motorsport evaluation, it is not impossible to include in a special road car. There is a conceptual lab in Munich that testing various CFRP applications in BMW,Rolls-Royce and even MINI's with some Cooper S models testing a CFRP hood.

The programme I have seen to reflect the creative conception of BMW Ms new strategy starts from Road car - Road Car Special Packet(Competition) - GTS - CSL. Identity is important so that is why there is an evolution for each stage with the CSL using conceptual visual ideas from the CSL Hommage but applying them realistically. It will be the first modern BMW Batmobile. And again its mission is to bring the competitive edge of Motorsport innovation to the road exactly like the E9 set out to do.

Of course this needs further funding to innovate and apply so there will be new but for the first time a BMW X3M and BMW X4M as well as M Performance versions of the BMW X1 and upcoming BMW X2. The forthcoming BMW Z sports car will be positioned like BMWi as a book between the BMWi and BMW M. Bookends.

[SamS]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Of course this needs further funding to innovate and apply so there will be new but for the first time a BMW X3M and BMW X4M as well as M Performance versions of the BMW X1 and upcoming BMW X2.

Hmmmm yes. Gxx X3M starting to sound very appealing. As my kids get older I need something with more functionality than a sedan. Keep it under 4000lbs and $80k and we have a winner.