[Fred_Boosted]

Hi, guys.

I read some members were discussing the brake upgrade on 335i, obviously the Big brake kit is the best route. But there was one question raised, will the brake master cylinder play a very important role when upgrading the brakes?

I did some search on the forum, the brake master cylinder will effect the brake feel of the pedal. I recall there was a thread someone discussing the soft pedal feel after put F30 M performance brakes on his e90. Maybe this means we need upgrade brake master cylinder.

Here are what i found:

E90/92 335i Master brake cylinder(part number 34 33 6 785 664):



E90/92 M3 Master brake cylinder(part number34 31 2 283 533):


First, they have different part number, which means they are not exactly the same.
However, if you pay attention to the picture. They are very identical, except one hose on 335i says 25 the other one says 26 on M3 one. The other hose both says 22. This very little difference might be the reason why some people feel 335i's pedal is soft after they go with 135i performance brakes or F30 M performance brakes.

I don't have any extra cash on hand right now to buy them and do the research . But I will for sure dig more deep into this. Otherwise, I was trying to find picture of F30 brake master cylinder, but not able to find any. If anyone happen to have, welcome to chime in.

[Fred_Boosted]

Addition find:

http://parts.bmwofbridgewater.com/p/...336851095.html

The 2 series and F30 320 328 335 share the same brake master cylinder, can anyone tell me if their brake calipers and rotors are the same or not?

[feuer]

135i brakes on 335i is NOT an upgrade! Well it is but only cosmetically!
If you do this there isn't any need to replace the master cylinder.
f30 would make the brake pedal soft so you want to upgrade to M3 master cylinder.
Master cylinder from f30 is not interchangeable and that chassis has programmable brake module.
You can program it according to the size of the brakes and size of the wheels installed.
Most vehicles with electrical steering which is also programmable have programmable brakes as well.
VW has these features since 2005 and BMW is just late in the game.
f30 series come with different rotors and calipers which is determined by the engine size and the package: base, sport and performance.
Front f30 from any model would fit any e90, the rears NO, and that is on every e90.
I hope I answered all of your questions.

[Fred_Boosted]

Originally Posted by feuer

135i brakes on 335i is NOT an upgrade! Well it is but only cosmetically!
If you do this there isn't any need to replace the master cylinder.
f30 would make the brake pedal soft so you want to upgrade to M3 master cylinder.
Master cylinder from f30 is not interchangeable and that chassis has programmable brake module.
You can program it according to the size of the brakes and size of the wheels installed.
Most vehicles with electrical steering which is also programmable have programmable brakes as well.
VW has these features since 2005 and BMW is just late in the game.
f30 series come with different rotors and calipers which is determined by the engine size and the package: base, sport and performance.
Front f30 from any model would fit any e90, the rears NO, and that is on every e90.
I hope I answered all of your questions.

Thanks for the answer, I know the 135i M performance will not be an upgrade.

My point is, according to the picture I found, the M3 brake master cylinder is not that different than 335i. Could it also be the booster difference change the pedal feel?

Also you mentioned about programming the brakes through coding, is that even possible on E90/E92 or its just on F30?

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Fred_Boosted

My point is, according to the picture I found, the M3 brake master cylinder is not that different than 335i. Could it also be the booster difference change the pedal feel?

No, the booster is identical on all e9x's including M3.

Originally Posted by Fred_Boosted

Also you mentioned about programming the brakes through coding, is that even possible on E90/E92 or its just on F30?

No, just f30

[bleedsblue0023]

The larger M3 master cylinder will increase pedal pressure but decrease the force applied, but you will need to put your foot down harder.

http://www.markwilliams.com/braketech.aspx

[feuer]

Originally Posted by bleedsblue0023

The larger M3 master cylinder will increase pedal pressure but decrease the force applied, but you will need to put your foot down harder.

http://www.markwilliams.com/braketech.aspx

from your link:
Spongy Pedal:
5) Master cylinder bore too small creating excessive high line pressure. Match master cylinder to system.

M3 calipers has bigger pistons thus the M3 master cylinder has bigger bore.
Since f30 caliper are 4 piston front and 2 piston rear bigger master cylinder is recommended to obtain better ratio between the piston and master cylinder.
The pedal will be firmer but you will not have to put your foot down harder since the brake pedal is vacuum assisted.

[bleedsblue0023]

Originally Posted by feuer

from your link:
Spongy Pedal:
5) Master cylinder bore too small creating excessive high line pressure. Match master cylinder to system.

M3 calipers has bigger pistons thus the M3 master cylinder has bigger bore.
Since f30 caliper are 4 piston front and 2 piston rear bigger master cylinder is recommended to obtain better ratio between the piston and master cylinder.
The pedal will be firmer but you will not have to put your foot down harder since the brake pedal is vacuum assisted.

I agree 100%. Should have added in my comment: All things being equal.

[ibo]

Been on the lookout for m3 master cylinders in prep for the f30 bbk upgrade and found this:

http://www.carid.com/centric/premium...130-34203.html

The provided picture is identical to the OEM m3 master cylinder provided above, but it's less than 1/4 of the price. Can anyone provide any insight into this?

[feuer]

Originally Posted by ibo

Been on the lookout for m3 master cylinders in prep for the f30 bbk upgrade and found this:

http://www.carid.com/centric/premium...130-34203.html

The provided picture is identical to the OEM m3 master cylinder provided above, but it's less than 1/4 of the price. Can anyone provide any insight into this?

yes, that is aftermarket replacement.
here is a ebay link from the original:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/08-13-BMW-E9...AAAOSw7FRWa4pq

[ibo]

Originally Posted by feuer

yes, that is aftermarket replacement.
here is a ebay link from the original:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/08-13-BMW-E9...AAAOSw7FRWa4pq

I was just about to pull the trigger on that exact ebay listing until I found the Centric ones. Considering they look almost identical, do you know if the OEM ones are better than the Centric? To be specific, I'm wondering if this is the same deal as OEM vs TRW.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by ibo

I was just about to pull the trigger on that exact ebay listing until I found the Centric ones. Considering they look almost identical, do you know if the OEM ones are better than the Centric? To be specific, I'm wondering if this is the same deal as OEM vs TRW.

To answer your question simply I would say no.
Cetric is a OK but I would still prefer good used OEM part in these particular instance.
TRW is OEM supplier, Centric is not.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by feuer

from your link:
Spongy Pedal:
5) Master cylinder bore too small creating excessive high line pressure. Match master cylinder to system.

M3 calipers has bigger pistons thus the M3 master cylinder has bigger bore.
Since f30 caliper are 4 piston front and 2 piston rear bigger master cylinder is recommended to obtain better ratio between the piston and master cylinder.
The pedal will be firmer but you will not have to put your foot down harder since the brake pedal is vacuum assisted.

Number of piston is irrelevant to this discussion. The overall surface area determines the size of master cylinder required.

The 6 piston caliper on the 135i actually have a slightly SMALLER overall piston area on one clamping side than the single LARGE piston on the sliding caliper on the 335i. Look it up and do the calculations.

Just because a caliper has 2, 4, or 6 Pistons doesn't mean they require a larger master cylinder than a 1 piston caliper.

C'mon people. I don't know how many times I need to tell you all this.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Number of piston is irrelevant to this discussion. The overall surface area determines the size of master cylinder required.

The 6 piston caliper on the 135i actually have a slightly SMALLER overall piston area on one clamping side than the single LARGE piston on the sliding caliper on the 335i. Look it up and do the calculations.

Just because a caliper has 2, 4, or 6 Pistons doesn't mean they require a larger master cylinder than a 1 piston caliper.

C'mon people. I don't know how many times I need to tell you all this.

Oh, wow! We discovered hot water again!

Btw we are discussing f30 M Performance brakes on e90 non M with M master brake cylinder. Not 135i brakes.

[zero2sixtyZ]

Originally Posted by The HACK

C'mon people. I don't know how many times I need to tell you all this.

Valuable info, but no one is holding a gun to your head to post.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by zero2sixtyZ

Valuable info, but no one is holding a gun to your head to post.

Oh you have no idea how many of the posts in here I simply ignore, or refrain from posting.

Pretty much, almost all of it is bad. Occasionally I'd get a post or two I'd agree with, but that's when I go plunk down $10 for a Powerball Ticket. Chances of me winning and the signal to noise ratio here is about the same.

Occasionally one of these posts here have a keyword or phrase that simply triggers a response reflex. Otherwise most of the time I don't bother.

Maybe the appropriate response from you should be "no one is holding a gun to my head to READ." THAT, I'd agree with.

[Abax335]

Not reading through all of this but beware the m3 has an electronic vac pump as well for braking

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Abax335

Not reading through all of this but beware the m3 has an electronic vac pump as well for braking

They all have vacuum pumps, mechanical or electric, which does not really matter as all are there to serve the very same purpose.

[Abax335]

Originally Posted by feuer

They all have vacuum pumps, mechanical or electric, which does not really matter as all are there to serve the very same purpose.

Yes, I am well aware. This car utilizes an additional one just for braking not engine vacuum like the ones you are referring to. That being said I don't know how well a hydraulic system that utilizes an additional pump for braking will react with a system that doesn't have the extra vacuum. Just something to keep in mind if you do this.

It may be more directly related to the booster operation.

Just giving you a heads up there is more involved in that system.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Abax335

Yes, I am well aware. This car utilizes an additional one just for braking not engine vacuum like the ones you are referring to. That being said I don't know how well a hydraulic system that utilizes an additional pump for braking will react with a system that doesn't have the extra vacuum. Just something to keep in mind if you do this.

It may be more directly related to the booster operation.

Just giving you a heads up there is more involved in that system.

it is not an EXTRA vacuum, is separate vacuum.

[Abax335]

Originally Posted by feuer

it is not an EXTRA vacuum, is separate vacuum.

extra vacuum pump" sorry. touchy today aren't we. Just trying to let him know in case he was unaware that it exist, its's not common knowledge to know there is an electric vacuum pump in the fender in tandem with the other. I don't remember much information on them since I haven't had to address one recently ,but it may be worth taking a look at since he is trying to do a retrofit of a master cylinder that works with a booster that utilizes it.

[techwhiz]

Originally Posted by Abax335

extra vacuum pump" sorry. touchy today aren't we. Just trying to let him know in case he was unaware that it exist, its's not common knowledge to know there is an electric vacuum pump in the fender in tandem with the other. I don't remember much information on them since I haven't had to address one recently ,but it may be worth taking a look at since he is trying to do a retrofit of a master cylinder that works with a booster that utilizes it.

Doesn't matter.
They bolt right up and it improves feel for the F30 retrofit on an E90.
How do I know?
I have the full swap with braided lines and the M3 master.