[only1harry]

I have a '16 535xi loaner the last couple of days because my car is at the Dealer with a steering issue (they are replacing the lower steering shaft and a leaky valve cover and it's taking them forever).

This 2016 535 has the same floating feeling, very little road feel, and the steering wheel shakes when I hit a little bump or crack in the road, especially with the wheels turned a little. I also felt the rear tires slipping when I took a turn from a stop at like 1/3rd throttle. There is also very little directional stability in the highway and the car was wandering. Exactly what my 335 has been doing after I hit a pothole. This is a 2016 535 with only 3k mi. on it.
Forget about going over a dip especially when turning. The suspension travel is immense. The whole car goes up and down what feels like about a foot, and throws off the balance big time. It does corner well and quickly at lower speeds, but if there is a crack or a bump the car gets all unsettled. Compared to the 535 my wife's 2013 Accord EX feels like a sports car and has quicker steering, and also noticeably less body roll than the 535. The Accord can also change lanes faster than the 535.

Sticker price >$63K on this '16 535xi (found it in the glove box). Why in the world would people pay that much for this car? Just for straight line acceleration (it was very quick with the 8sp.) and because it's a German car which only means it is a lot less reliable? I guess most people lease them, but I think they would be a lot better off and happier with a Cadillac which have come a long way from the Caddys our parents drove. I drove my sister's 2013 Infiniti M37 (330hp) a couple of months ago, and it drove and handled much better than the 535. It was like night and day, the seats were much better in the Infinit M37, the stereo was light years better, and the M37 had a sticker in the low 60's as well when new. In the handling dept. it put the 535 to shame, and my sister's M37 was a 2yr leased car that she bought used, and should have been abused, but it didn't feel that way. This 535 in my driveway feels like it was, and like it has many more miles on it than the 3K the odometer says it has. Just from the way the chassis feels, and some suspension noise I get on rough roads.

The thing that is nice about the 535 as is on new 3 series is the 8-sp. tranny. The car's acceleration was impressive and I am pretty sure it's a little faster than my 335xi. The other nice thing about it is that the steering gets a little stiffer when I switch to Sport mode. The brakes are good and pretty close or the same as my 335's. Still the lack of road feel, floatiness, and some bouniness to me says that BMW does not listen. I have had a few 2014 and 2015 328xi loaners and they are not far behind. The only difference I noticed is that the 328xi's have a slightly "rougher" ride and just slightly better handling, but no big differences except of course in acceleration when compared to the 535xi. There is something to be said about the suspension and (electric) steering in these newer 3 & 5 series which BMW has made worse instead of improving them. All the loaner cars I 've had (low mileage '13 through '15 models) including this (my first) 2016 535xi feel like there is something "wrong" with them. Does anyone else feel that way?

My wife was thinking that in a year or 2 we trade in the Accord for a 2-3yr old CPO 528 or 535 because she feels the 3 series are a bit small (I don't see much difference in leg room inside except a bigger trunk and bigger hood with the 535) and I told her we would test drive a few when the time comes. But after driving this '16 535xi I would not consider it at all. I am not even considering trading my '11 335xi for a '13 or later model that had crossed my mind. Especially after driving my sister's M37 I truly feel there are better cars out there in the same price range, or for even less $. You may not get 4.9-5.0 sec. 0-60 that the N55 and AWD offers, but 5.3 or a couple of tenths of a sec. won't matter to me and won't be the deciding factor in the end.

Harry

[GMe90]

Nice review, bud. Here are my thoughts on this. I would rather buy a used Mazda 6 with MT and a used Porsche 911 (997.1 C2S with MT) than spend $50k-$60k on a F10 series. It makes no sense at all to me why one would spend so much money on a car that can't be a sports car due to its size, weight, chassis, and function (transport the family around/commute).

[Nitrousbird]

When it comes to replace my 335, BMW won't even be on my radar for my next vehicle. Though the new/newer M cars are nice, I feel the competition is besting them and the rest of the lineup is blah at best.

[Welcome to NBA Jam]

Also remember that loaners aren't exactly taken care of. Those 3,000 miles are some pretty hard 3,000 miles.

[Welcome to NBA Jam]

Also remember that loaners aren't exactly taken care of. Those 3,000 miles are some pretty hard 3,000 miles.

[wilbur_the_goose]

FWIW, I test drove a '13 Audi A6 today. 22K miles with a supercharger.

Sweet car.

I decided to get a Route 66 warranty on my '10 E92 ($2500 versus $37,000!), but Audi is definitely on my list once my E92 runs out of steam.

[Herakles]

Originally Posted by only1harry

I have a '16 535xi loaner the last couple of days because my car is at the Dealer with a steering issue (they are replacing the lower steering shaft and a leaky valve cover and it's taking them forever).

This 2016 535 has the same floating feeling, very little road feel, and the steering wheel shakes when I hit a little bump or crack in the road, especially with the wheels turned a little. I also felt the rear tires slipping when I took a turn from a stop at like 1/3rd throttle. There is also very little directional stability in the highway and the car was wandering. Exactly what my 335 has been doing after I hit a pothole. This is a 2016 535 with only 3k mi. on it.
Forget about going over a dip especially when turning. The suspension travel is immense. The whole car goes up and down what feels like about a foot, and throws off the balance big time. It does corner well and quickly at lower speeds, but if there is a crack or a bump the car gets all unsettled. Compared to the 535 my wife's 2013 Accord EX feels like a sports car and has quicker steering, and also noticeably less body roll than the 535. The Accord can also change lanes faster than the 535.

Sticker price >$63K on this '16 535xi (found it in the glove box). Why in the world would people pay that much for this car? Just for straight line acceleration (it was very quick with the 8sp.) and because it's a German car which only means it is a lot less reliable? I guess most people lease them, but I think they would be a lot better off and happier with a Cadillac which have come a long way from the Caddys our parents drove. I drove my sister's 2013 Infiniti M37 (330hp) a couple of months ago, and it drove and handled much better than the 535. It was like night and day, the seats were much better in the Infinit M37, the stereo was light years better, and the M37 had a sticker in the low 60's as well when new. In the handling dept. it put the 535 to shame, and my sister's M37 was a 2yr leased car that she bought used, and should have been abused, but it didn't feel that way. This 535 in my driveway feels like it was, and like it has many more miles on it than the 3K the odometer says it has. Just from the way the chassis feels, and some suspension noise I get on rough roads.

The thing that is nice about the 535 as is on new 3 series is the 8-sp. tranny. The car's acceleration was impressive and I am pretty sure it's a little faster than my 335xi. The other nice thing about it is that the steering gets a little stiffer when I switch to Sport mode. The brakes are good and pretty close or the same as my 335's. Still the lack of road feel, floatiness, and some bouniness to me says that BMW does not listen. I have had a few 2014 and 2015 328xi loaners and they are not far behind. The only difference I noticed is that the 328xi's have a slightly "rougher" ride and just slightly better handling, but no big differences except of course in acceleration when compared to the 535xi. There is something to be said about the suspension and (electric) steering in these newer 3 & 5 series which BMW has made worse instead of improving them. All the loaner cars I 've had (low mileage '13 through '15 models) including this (my first) 2016 535xi feel like there is something "wrong" with them. Does anyone else feel that way?

My wife was thinking that in a year or 2 we trade in the Accord for a 2-3yr old CPO 528 or 535 because she feels the 3 series are a bit small (I don't see much difference in leg room inside except a bigger trunk and bigger hood with the 535) and I told her we would test drive a few when the time comes. But after driving this '16 535xi I would not consider it at all. I am not even considering trading my '11 335xi for a '13 or later model that had crossed my mind. Especially after driving my sister's M37 I truly feel there are better cars out there in the same price range, or for even less $. You may not get 4.9-5.0 sec. 0-60 that the N55 and AWD offers, but 5.3 or a couple of tenths of a sec. won't matter to me and won't be the deciding factor in the end.

Harry

As a owner of the same car as yours, I agree the 335 feels a little small- Its so disappointing even getting into a 2016 535 didnt impress you at all and obviously bmw didn't make the adjustments -

I would opt for a newer audi A6 I think over the 5 series if i would want to move up to a bigger sedan, but honestly i think the next vehicle will be a nice loaded truck, something more rugged and outgoing to reflect my lifestyle- I love my bmw but i dont love being all "oh my gosh is that a new scratch" and all anal about the car...

But good review, must feel nice getting into your e90 and liking it more!

I got a 2016 320ix loaner, brand new- i felts the same- wasnt very impressed- when i got back in my car felt so much sportier. But i did like the roomier feel of the F30

[tgyberg]

Bummer. The old 5'rs were nice and sporty.. this one sounds like a dope'y boat

[only1harry]

I agree with most of you. A BMW will most likely not be on my shopping list either when I decide to sell my e92 335xi. As a matter of fact when my CPO warranty is over in a year and a half, I will be getting rid of it and will probably be looking at the Audi A5 or A6 since I think it's the best looking sedan out of all the other competitors like Lexus/Infiniti, etc. I still have a lot of research to do on the Audi though, and I doubt it will be as reliable as its Japanese counterparts, but if it's more reliable than BMW, it will certainly be at the top of my shopping list.

My 335 only has 35k mi. and I cannot tell you how many times I have been to the Dealer with problems. I just picked up my 335 from them tonight and returned the 535xi loaner. They replaced the lower steering shaft (with the built-in U joint) that was giving me a ton of free play and clicking noises in the steering wheel. The steering finally feels close to the way it felt when I bought it (CPO) with 24k mi. on the odo (not quite there but close). The steering finally got tighter and more direct/precise, and no more free play, wandering, or constant steering corrections. It took them 18 months to fix this after more than 1/2 a dozen visits to 2 different Dealerships who were telling me it was normal wear & tear of the steering components and the chassis, and that I needed a wheel alignment every dang visit!! I am tired of being in the shop all the time listening to ignorant, unwilling and uncaring techs and advisors. They cost me about $800 in multiple wheel aligments that I could have put to better use or better suspension.

The other thing is I have come to realize that our cars need a TON of frequent and costly maintenance to keep them running as to avoid much bigger and premature repairs. These cars are money pits and it's getting exhausting for me to argue with the dealer every couple of months and pay to keep the car running well. Michelin PSS tires alone (and winter tires) that last 6-8K mi. at least in my car, are putting a hole in my pocket, not to mention the BRAKES I have done twice, and all the other stuff and a ton of $ I will be paying to the Indy next week to replace the tranny fluid, transfer case, differential and other fluids (still cheaper than the Dealer though). I do not understand why I can't worry about all these things at 80k-90k mi. like I did with all my Hondas or my old '03 AWD Subaru, instead of starting at 25K mi. or low mileage. Something is fundementally wrong when you have all these maintenance and repair costs with such low mileage.

The wastegate on my 335 is rattling like a heard of cows with cow bells around their neck and 2 Dealers tell me it's normal. I complained about the shocks not working well several times over the last 14-16 months, and told them the rear of the car goes up in the air when going over bumps, and the Dealer told me it's normal - during the new car warranty. Only to find out both rear shocks were leaking badly when we removed them shortly after the CPO warranty kicked in to install the Bilstein B6/HD's, and naturally shocks are not covered under CPO.

My biggest problem is not only with the car and its poor reliability (they also replaced a CRACKED valve cover that was leaking today with 35k on the odo!!), it's the Dealers that are equally SHITTY, excuse my french. The Dealer makes the ownership experience even worse. I will take a Honda Dealer that has earned the Prestigious Honda Award (I am lucky to have one nearby) any day over a BMW dealer. I even got a couple of free wheel alignments at the Honda Dealer during the first 8-9 months at the first sign of the car pulling to one side a little. Would BMW do that? Nope, they would put out their hand and say "sorry $190+tx please, because alignments are not covered on your brand new car". Another thing I don't understand is how quickly and easily the alignment goes out of wack in our cars, resulting in very rapid tire wear.

Anyway sorry for venting, but I just don't see this whole BMW thing after 2 years of owning one. I guess if you sink a lot of $ into them and really beef up the suspension and chassis including all bushings, camber arms, toe arms, guide rods/trailing arms, subframe bushings, thrust arms, brakes, tranny & motor mounts to reliably handle any increased turbo boost or power mods (or replace the turbo), you 'd be happier with the sportiness that our cars are capable of, but the maintenance, repairs and reliability problems would still be present or worse after power mods. I personally have a lot better things to do with my time than constantly tinkering with the car or trying to figure out what's wrong with it again. I thought with a sticker price of $56,400 my loaded '11 335i was going to be a reliable and somewhat "trouble-free" car for a while, but it's my fault for not researching it more. I certainly did not think I was going to have to do 2 brake jobs within 10k-11k miles of driving. Coming from Hondas to me that is mind boggling, and I drive the 335 mostly like granny and very cautiously, only opening it up a little on the freeway to let the motor "breathe" and clean out the fuel injectors. I really try hard not to engage the brakes much by downshifting. Brembo OE/blank rotors and Hawk HP+ pads lasted 92k mi. on my '01 Civic EX Coupe and 40k mi. on my Integra which I auto-xed every weekend for many years and tracked it a few times/year. I am not saying I expect that from my 335, but 20k to 30k mi. from my OE brakes would be nice... You know like half that of most other non-BMW daily driven cars that go 40k-50k between brake jobs.

Anyway, 18 months before my CPO warranty is up is a long way out, but when you get up in years like me it goes by fast, so I should probably start my research pretty soon Try to enjoy your Bimmers whenever you can, and remember it's only money, but the best thing is there might be a better car out there for you in the near future

Harry

PS.
Oh yeah, and you guys were right. I was so glad to be back in my 335 tonight. What a huge difference between my car and the crappy 2016 535xi that felt like a boat and more like my dad's 1977 Caddy Sedan Deville. Actually I would have a hard time picking the 535 over that Caddy. The Caddy was WAY more comfortable and handled the bumps and cracks much better, and you could barely hear that smooth 425ci at 110mph on the freeway That was my car when I went away to College in the mid-late 80's

[GMe90]

I think the new generation of American cars is taking it to the Europeans big time. There weren't such a good cars around when the e90 came out. You can buy a Mustang GT with the track package for the price of a 320i! And the Mustang will eat the 335i for breakfast. I don't know what my next car will be, but I plan on keeping my BMW until the wheels fall off.

[wilbur_the_goose]

GMe90 - amen to that. Even the Ford Focus is a very nice car with a European driving feel.

[Nitrousbird]

Originally Posted by only1harry

The other thing is I have come to realize that our cars need a TON of frequent and costly maintenance to keep them running as to avoid much bigger and premature repairs. These cars are money pits and it's getting exhausting for me to argue with the dealer every couple of months and pay to keep the car running well. Michelin PSS tires alone (and winter tires) that last 6-8K mi. at least in my car, are putting a hole in my pocket, not to mention the BRAKES I have done twice, and all the other stuff and a ton of $ I will be paying to the Indy next week to replace the tranny fluid, transfer case, differential and other fluids (still cheaper than the Dealer though). I do not understand why I can't worry about all these things at 80k-90k mi.

WTF are you talking about:
- You are choosing to install a high wear tire and are mad they are costing you a lot? Buy something that wears better. I've got 8k on my current tires and they look almost new.

- What are you doing to the brakes? I replaced what looked like the originals on mine @ ~110k (front), and the rears @ 119k (rear - those weren't due yet but I was tired of all the dust of the OEM pads). All pads/sensors I think I had $150 into it.

- Brake fluid cost me $19; car runs DOT4, has to be replaced like any car running this type of fluid. I haven't done my "lifetime" tranny fluid yet, but Redline D4 is only $17/bottle (2 bottles). Not sure what the rear end takes, but should be about the same. Oil changes are oil changes; Mobile 1 + filter, about $50/each.

It's time you start doing your own maintenance - it's not hard and far cheaper. My "old" 335 has super tight steering (not an ounce of play), shocks are good, ride is still good...actually, there aren't any mechanical issues I can even address on this car. I've had mine 10 months, 10.5k miles - just looked at my spreadsheet: $951 in total repair/maintenance. That includes a new battery, water pump/thermostat, brake pads, 2 oil changes, plugs, a couple minor cosmetic repairs, and a few other small items (HVAC controller, light bulb, etc.). This is a car with over 100k on it. I've spent under $100/month in maintenance/repairs, and had it not been for the water pump it would be about 1/2 that.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Welcome to NBA Jam

Also remember that loaners aren't exactly taken care of. Those 3,000 miles are some pretty hard 3,000 miles.

Ah, I don't think that is true. Most people who get BMWs as loaners are well-off executive types that just want a car to get to work with little inconvenience as possible. They are not taking them to the track and ringing them out. Plus most BMW dealerships are in major metropolitan areas with dense traffic and square-grid roads, so there is no chance to abuse the car. The 5-Series just sucks... Get a Buick for $20K less. Same car with better reliability.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Nitrousbird

WTF are you talking about:
- You are choosing to install a high wear tire and are mad they are costing you a lot? Buy something that wears better. I've got 8k on my current tires and they look almost new.

- What are you doing to the brakes? I replaced what looked like the originals on mine @ ~110k (front), and the rears @ 119k (rear - those weren't due yet but I was tired of all the dust of the OEM pads). All pads/sensors I think I had $150 into it.

- Brake fluid cost me $19; car runs DOT4, has to be replaced like any car running this type of fluid. I haven't done my "lifetime" tranny fluid yet, but Redline D4 is only $17/bottle (2 bottles). Not sure what the rear end takes, but should be about the same. Oil changes are oil changes; Mobile 1 + filter, about $50/each.

It's time you start doing your own maintenance - it's not hard and far cheaper. My "old" 335 has super tight steering (not an ounce of play), shocks are good, ride is still good...actually, there aren't any mechanical issues I can even address on this car. I've had mine 10 months, 10.5k miles - just looked at my spreadsheet: $951 in total repair/maintenance. That includes a new battery, water pump/thermostat, brake pads, 2 oil changes, plugs, a couple minor cosmetic repairs, and a few other small items (HVAC controller, light bulb, etc.). This is a car with over 100k on it. I've spent under $100/month in maintenance/repairs, and had it not been for the water pump it would be about 1/2 that.

I'm all on board with the maintenance costs are not that bad, but you are talking DIY. MOST owners pay professionals, which for BMWs is expensive...

[Efthreeoh]

OP, you have the classic experience that I often write here about. You are used to Japanese reliability and expect an expensive car like a BMW to have as good reliability because they cost far more than a Japanese brand. This is not the case and never has been the case with BMWs. Your experience with your BMW is quite normal.

[cdgatti]

O1Harry... that is quite sad to hear, I had a similar experience when I had a 2011 F10 loaner from the dealer. I left that experience thinking wow this car is really NOT solid at all! It felt like I was driving a buick from before buick was making today's euro inspired buicks. really sad this whole mass market move by bmw. i will not buy one till they get their act together. their maintenanice/cost inferiority was worth putting up with when they built their cars with that old world craftsmanship, but without it they are merely an overpriced over complicated waste of money, prestige badge.

[VTECaddict]

Originally Posted by Nitrousbird

WTF are you talking about:
- You are choosing to install a high wear tire and are mad they are costing you a lot? Buy something that wears better. I've got 8k on my current tires and they look almost new.

- What are you doing to the brakes? I replaced what looked like the originals on mine @ ~110k (front), and the rears @ 119k (rear - those weren't due yet but I was tired of all the dust of the OEM pads). All pads/sensors I think I had $150 into it.

- Brake fluid cost me $19; car runs DOT4, has to be replaced like any car running this type of fluid. I haven't done my "lifetime" tranny fluid yet, but Redline D4 is only $17/bottle (2 bottles). Not sure what the rear end takes, but should be about the same. Oil changes are oil changes; Mobile 1 + filter, about $50/each.

It's time you start doing your own maintenance - it's not hard and far cheaper. My "old" 335 has super tight steering (not an ounce of play), shocks are good, ride is still good...actually, there aren't any mechanical issues I can even address on this car. I've had mine 10 months, 10.5k miles - just looked at my spreadsheet: $951 in total repair/maintenance. That includes a new battery, water pump/thermostat, brake pads, 2 oil changes, plugs, a couple minor cosmetic repairs, and a few other small items (HVAC controller, light bulb, etc.). This is a car with over 100k on it. I've spent under $100/month in maintenance/repairs, and had it not been for the water pump it would be about 1/2 that.

The only thing out of the ordinary for me maintenance/repair wise was the water pump.

My OEM 330i brakes lasted about 70k, and they still had life in them, but I upgraded to 335i brakes so they were removed. I have about 50k on the 335i brakes (purchased used with 20k on them) and they still have PLENTY of life. I don't know how you've gone through two brake jobs. If you're upgrading the brakes with aftermarket before they're worn then that's something different. That's not a maintenance cost, it's a modification cost.

All the fluids you mentioned are optional preventative maintenance. Most will recommend changing them at least at 100k even though it's "lifetime" fluid, but some will change them every 50k to be safe. Again, this is optional maintenance so if you decide to change it before 100k, thats not a required maintenance cost.

Michelin PSS are some of the best performing street tires, but also one of the most expensive tires. If you want or need that maximum grip that the tires offer, you have to pay for them. And being a maximum performance tire, they will wear fast because that's how they grip so well. If you're not routinely pushing the car/tires to their limits, then there is no reason to get PSS. Something like Hankook V12 provides excellent performance for a fraction of the price of PSS, and my last set lasted over 25k mi.

But yes, you're paying for performance, materials, and of course brand prestige with any German car. Pushing the envelope of performance and technology has it's costs in both engineering and maintenance/repair. If you want reliability, get a Japanese brand. The price of a car is not indicative of it's reliability. It's actually more likely to be inversely proportional to the reliability/maintenance costs. You think a $400k Lambo Aventador is going to be more reliable than a $20k Honda Civic? Not a chance in hell.

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by GMe90

Nice review, bud. Here are my thoughts on this. I would rather buy a used Mazda 6 with MT and a used Porsche 911 (997.1 C2S with MT) than spend $50k-$60k on a F10 series. It makes no sense at all to me why one would spend so much money on a car that can't be a sports car due to its size, weight, chassis, and function (transport the family around/commute).

You're assuming everyone buying a car is buying it for its ability to be a sports car. Some people like a soft cruiser.

[justpete]

BMW != JDM

And the 5 series ranked dead last in C&R's last stack up in '14 (I think) but the G30 chassis may address the aging platform's deficits. Yeah, there are better cars to buy, no doubt about it.

[wilbur_the_goose]

Originally Posted by justpete

BMW != JDM

And the 5 series ranked dead last in C&R's last stack up in '14 (I think) but the G30 chassis may address the aging platform's deficits. Yeah, there are better cars to buy, no doubt about it.

Heck yes. The A6 I test drove yesterday was SO much better than the current 5-series. I would have bought it if I could've afforded it.

[CookMaster]

Op, my E92 same year with 40k miles has been problem free. I had all fluids replaced at 30k and replaced battery this year due to my concerns with az summer temps. Brakes, suspension and steering have been right on. Don't know why your car has deviated from the normal driver experience, but it could be related to preventative maintenance and driver induced issues, or the previous owner's vehicle abuse. They all play a roll, but the majority of owners are pretty happy with their ride.

[Kevinl]

The f10 is a dopey looking car as muck as I thought the e60 was ugly it at least was a car you would notice