[mike sevel]

BMW I understand will no longer describe their transmission fluid as lifetime.
Some models will require service every 60K miles. My '08 E93has 51K miles but is approaching ten model years old. As a PM, I have begun investigating service options. I stopped in at a local franchise auto repair outlet. I explained that I only want a drain and fill, not flush and fill.
My GM tranny takes, according to the outlet, Dextron 6 fluid. They gave me two quotes; drain and fill 4.5 quarts for $150 or pan gasket, filter and 4.5 quarts for $503.
I understand that the full transmission is 16 quarts so does replacing only.45 quarts help maintain it?
Your thoughts?
Mikey

[STR8-6IX]

Originally Posted by mike sevel

BMW I understand will no longer describe their transmission fluid as lifetime.
Some models will require service every 60K miles. My '08 E93has 51K miles but is approaching ten model years old. As a PM, I have begun investigating service options. I stopped in at a local franchise auto repair outlet. I explained that I only want a drain and fill, not flush and fill.
My GM tranny takes, according to the outlet, Dextron 6 fluid. They gave me two quotes; drain and fill 4.5 quarts for $150 or pan gasket, filter and 4.5 quarts for $503.
I understand that the full transmission is 16 quarts so does replacing only.45 quarts help maintain it?
Your thoughts?
Mikey

a drain and fill is useless. you need a full transmission service with a new filter, otherwise you are wasting your time.

your fluid will be clean, GM fluid service is every 100k so you dont need to do it yet unless you really want to.

good luck

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by mike sevel

...
My GM tranny takes, according to the outlet, Dextron 6 fluid. They gave me two quotes; drain and fill 4.5 quarts for $150 or pan gasket, filter and 4.5 quarts for $503.
I understand that the full transmission is 16 quarts so does replacing only.45 quarts help maintain it?

It takes much less than 16 quarts. According to one spec I saw it takes 9.1 kg, which at more than 1kg/quart means around 8.

A drain only drains the transmission body, which should be a bit more than what they're quoting. To properly get all new oil in you need to "flush" it while the engine is running to move the rest of the old oil from the torque converter. Find someone else that knows what they're doing.

[toystwo]

As with everything there are different opinions on whether a full fluid transfer is necessary. There are tons of threads on various forums regarding transmission fluid changes and whether service intervals like 100k are too long.

I think most of the service recommendations/procedures by OEM's are drain and fill w/ filter (i.e., you don't have to flush the fluid from the torque converter). Therefore, one can conclude that if you follow their service intervals, the addition of the fresh additives in the roughly half of the fluid that was exchanged is adequate.

ZF's recommendation is drain and fill (service every 62k miles):

http://www.zf.com/corporate/en_de/af...vorgang_1.html

Maybe GM with their 100k mile recommendation is full fluid exchange but I doubt it. Would be interesting to see what the BMW service procedure is in the shop manual for these fluid changes - I bet it's drain and fill.

[07lilredwagon]

I have drained and filled my GM transmissioned E91 twice. The first drain: Fluid was dark but not stinky...filter was dark, pan pretty clean...very minor silver film on bottom of pan. 110,000. 2nd drain at 145,000 and the fluid was fine.

With your car on jack stands, level it out, drain the fluid, replace the filter and gasket/pan...., The fun begins when you must add fluid until it oozes out cold, then start the car, and begin adding fluid. After it warms up, (point the ambient thermometer at the pan until it reads operating temperature), foot on brake: shift through the gears (all wheels off the ground of course!) go back under the car, add as much fluid as it will hold it should start oozing out, then replace the plug. (I replaced the plug just snug whenever I got out from under the car......)

6 quarts or thereabouts if you let it drain over night. 4-5 if you do it all at the same time.

I added LubeGuard transmission treatment (recommended by a local tranny shop) and have not had any issues.

Its worth 100.00 if you can find an indy who will use your Dexron 6, filter and gasket....

JP

[fun2drive]

Opinions vary but to say a drain and fill is useless is a fool's statement.
Anything you can do to extend the life of your transmission is a good thing. Mixing new fluid with old fluid extends life. Most do another drain and fill shortly after the initial drain and fill which assuming you have 1/2 new fluid mixed with 1/2 mixed fluid allows you to run another 50-60K miles or so.
Flushing a transmission after 50K miles is a certain way to dislodge transmission steels and clutch material doing no harm in the bottom of the transmission and depositing them to a check ball someplace in the transmission assuring transmission failure due to inability to maintain transmission pressures needed.

If you post a comment to help the OP try to use some basis of fact not just your opinion. Mine is based on over 20 years experience with ZF and GM transmissions which are used on a lot of vehicles.

[tlow98]

Originally Posted by fun2drive

Opinions vary but to say a drain and fill is useless is a fool's statement.
Anything you can do to extend the life of your transmission is a good thing. Mixing new fluid with old fluid extends life. Most do another drain and fill shortly after the initial drain and fill which assuming you have 1/2 new fluid mixed with 1/2 mixed fluid allows you to run another 50-60K miles or so.
Flushing a transmission after 50K miles is a certain way to dislodge transmission steels and clutch material doing no harm in the bottom of the transmission and depositing them to a check ball someplace in the transmission assuring transmission failure due to inability to maintain transmission pressures needed.

If you post a comment to help the OP try to use some basis of fact not just your opinion. Mine is based on over 20 years experience with ZF and GM transmissions which are used on a lot of vehicles.

Agree on a lot of these points. Also, it's worth noting that we're using a 100k recommended change interval on the GM trans as a default number from BMW in lue of an actual recommendation from the transmission manufacturer. I have a sneaking suspicion the Dextron fluid is not altogether that much better than the ZF stuff nor is the GM trans 66% easier on the transmission fluid to allow the longer life

[cybermgm23]

I asked BMW last year to do mine and they flat out refused.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

a drain and fill is useless. you need a full transmission service with a new filter, otherwise you are wasting your time.

your fluid will be clean, GM fluid service is every 100k so you dont need to do it yet unless you really want to.

good luck

my DD is an auto, and from all my research blah blah blah right down to talking to an indie who worked on my car, drain and fill, as long as the fluid is not burnt, is the ONLY way to go.

Since I did not own an auto, never worried about it, I always thought you go to a dealer who hooks up a machine, and exchanges the fluid. Everybody I talked to say NO SIR.

If your fluid is already burnt up, then you do nothing, and ride it out.

Anyhow, the indie told me, we drained and filled and only got 3 quarts. You would need to do it at least 2 more times before all the fluid is exchanged.

this is my .02, YMMV. I've never owned an auto before, and would always prefer a clutch. But what can we do, this is a very unpopular way to be in the USA.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by fun2drive

Opinions vary but to say a drain and fill is useless is a fool's statement.
Anything you can do to extend the life of your transmission is a good thing. Mixing new fluid with old fluid extends life. Most do another drain and fill shortly after the initial drain and fill which assuming you have 1/2 new fluid mixed with 1/2 mixed fluid allows you to run another 50-60K miles or so.
Flushing a transmission after 50K miles is a certain way to dislodge transmission steels and clutch material doing no harm in the bottom of the transmission and depositing them to a check ball someplace in the transmission assuring transmission failure due to inability to maintain transmission pressures needed.

If you post a comment to help the OP try to use some basis of fact not just your opinion. Mine is based on over 20 years experience with ZF and GM transmissions which are used on a lot of vehicles.

There's a really conscientious YouTube that discusses this, and it came down to only drain and fill if your fluid is cherry red or dirty but not burnt. Burnt up, then leave alone. And he explains it well.

An indie working on my car said it's been their experience from customers, there is often a problem after a tranny has been flushed, and drain and fill is the only way they would go, and recommend. And that if your car is under 50k, or, the fluid is dirty but not burnt up, THERE IS 0% CHANCE of harming the car by draining and filling.

I dunno what the real motivation behind the so called sealed transmissions is, but it does make it very difficult for a DIY'er to properly drain and fill. My car had 86k when they did it, I've since gone over 1,000, and nothing bad happened. This is not a BMW, but a Lexus. My 335i is a stick, but if it were an auto, I would do the same....as long as not burnt, drain and fill, drive, then do it again.

[STR8-6IX]

Originally Posted by John 070

my DD is an auto, and from all my research blah blah blah right down to talking to an indie who worked on my car, drain and fill, as long as the fluid is not burnt, is the ONLY way to go.

Since I did not own an auto, never worried about it, I always thought you go to a dealer who hooks up a machine, and exchanges the fluid. Everybody I talked to say NO SIR.

If your fluid is already burnt up, then you do nothing, and ride it out.

Anyhow, the indie told me, we drained and filled and only got 3 quarts. You would need to do it at least 2 more times before all the fluid is exchanged.

this is my .02, YMMV. I've never owned an auto before, and would always prefer a clutch. But what can we do, this is a very unpopular way to be in the USA.

Originally Posted by John 070

There's a really conscientious YouTube that discusses this, and it came down to only drain and fill if your fluid is cherry red or dirty but not burnt. Burnt up, then leave alone. And he explains it well.

An indie working on my car said it's been their experience from customers, there is often a problem after a tranny has been flushed, and drain and fill is the only way they would go, and recommend. And that if your car is under 50k, or, the fluid is dirty but not burnt up, THERE IS 0% CHANCE of harming the car by draining and filling.

I dunno what the real motivation behind the so called sealed transmissions is, but it does make it very difficult for a DIY'er to properly drain and fill. My car had 86k when they did it, I've since gone over 1,000, and nothing bad happened. This is not a BMW, but a Lexus. My 335i is a stick, but if it were an auto, I would do the same....as long as not burnt, drain and fill, drive, then do it again.

theres lots of misinformation about this...

for starters, a drain and fill is stupid and a waste of money. may as well not fuck with your transmission at all if this is all you plan to do. you are simply running fresh new fluid through your old dirty filter.. what the hell is the point?

if you service your transmission on time like you are supposed to, i guarantee you will have NO problems with your transmission. I had 67k on mine when I had it done. I changed my pan filter as well and there were NO PROBLEMS whatsoever. shift quality improved alot.

I'd say 100,000 miles if your last call to service your transmission until it is too late.

if you're not gonna change the pan filter, dont bother!!! it's like running fresh new engine oil through an old, disgusting filter, why?

[John 070]

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

if you're not gonna change the pan filter, dont bother!!! it's like running fresh new engine oil through an old, disgusting filter, why?

This is exactly how I thought before I actually had a car with an auto. Why would you change 1/3 of your engine oil, and not all of it? And then go back and change another 1/3, and another 1/3? And in reality, this way, you will approach 100% exchanged, but never reach 100%.

It all goes back to the flushing process as being a bad, not good, thing.

Chris fix is in da house!

[STR8-6IX]

Originally Posted by John 070

This is exactly how I thought before I actually had a car with an auto. Why would you change 1/3 of your engine oil, and not all of it? And then go back and change another 1/3, and another 1/3? And in reality, this way, you will approach 100% exchanged, but never reach 100%.

It all goes back to the flushing process as being a bad, not good, thing.

Chris fix is in da house!

mine basically looked like "needs replacing" at 67k

but yea.. remove your pan filter when you do this, dont even bother opening the drain plug first theres no point because everything will drain when you take the pan off.

install new pan and put fresh oil in.. thats all you have to do and you WILL NOT suffer from any sort of transmission issues if you dont wait to long.

at 100k, you are taking a gamble but SHOULD be ok.

at 160k, forget it. you have chosen to be irresponsible to the point where your transmission is done for and thats the end of story.

[Wilt]

The real facts:

1. BMW, in the BMW Service and Warranty book issued with every new car, says to 'change fluid' every 100k miles, A/T fluid in the E9n was NEVER 'lifetime fluid' in that book! I have personally looked at EVERY BMW 3 Series Service and Warranty book PDF for the E9n, and every one of those books published from 2006 to the end of that series say to change automatic transmission fluid at 100k miles. Don't know where this urban legend about BMW 'lifetime' A/T fluid ever came from!
2. The recommendation is to CHANGE fluid (not 'flush') and also change filter (size emphasis for those who fail to read smaller print). The ZF filter is integral to the drain pan, so you replace the plastic pan and the new pan has the filter in it. The GM filter is a removeable component, and you do not need to buy a new pan.
3. ZF says you do NOT need to fully change out the fluid that is in the torque convertor. ZF NA tech rep, as recently as 6 months ago, writes:

   "A drain and fill procedure will refresh your transmission well enough without fully draining the converter. If you’d like to discuss the procedure to drain the converter, please call our technical service department (800) 321-0784."

   That echoes another reply written one year ago by another ZF NA tech rep,

   "One fluid change is enough to refresh the transmission. You will notice improvement in the shift quality. Of course, a second fluid change will result in an even better result, but is not required.
   "The method shown in this video changes about 60-70% of the oil in the transmission during a normal service, and has proven to be sufficient with a noticeable improvement in shift quality."

   When someone objected to not being satisfied with simply changing out the fluid in the pan, ZF NA tech rep replied,

   "Then do a filter/fluid change, drive it for a short time and then do a drain and refill. This will essentially do a cheapy flush. The remaining old fluid will be negligible."

4. While ZF suggests fluid and filter change every 60k miles or 8 years, they also say to 'follow to your automobile manufacturer recommendations'. BMW universally says 'at 100k' (per the BMW 3 Series Service and Warranty book) regardless of engine type or AT manufacturer.

[toystwo]

Wilt that all seems very convincing until you read 6IX-F10-N52's well reasoned and informed posts. I'm sure once the ZF techs know that 6IX-F10-N52 has deemed the drain and fill process "useless", they will stop spreading this "misinformation". After all, what do they really know? They just design and build transmissions for a living.

[Wilt]

Originally Posted by toystwo

Wilt that all seems very convincing until you read 6IX-F10-N52's well reasoned and informed posts. I'm sure once the ZF techs know that 6IX-F10-N52 has deemed the drain and fill process "useless", they will stop spreading this "misinformation". After all, what do they really know? They just design and build transmissions for a living.

"Never believe and follow what the manufacturer says, they only see the broken trannies and rebuild then.
The shade tree mechanics have the benefit of experience with a few trannies to guide them, "trannies have never failed on me when following that procedure"."

Now that I have been facetious enough, let me say that 6IX-F1-N52's comment, "a drain and fill is stupid and a waste of money. may as well not fuck with your transmission at all if this is all you plan to do. you are simply running fresh new fluid through your old dirty filter" I fully agree with...you need to CHANGE THE FILTER, not merely replace fluid (after 60k miles, or after 100k per BMW).
But if you are following the ZF tech's suggestion for a more thorough fluid change for the anally compulsive, ""Then do a filter/fluid change, drive it for a short time and then do a drain and refill. This will essentially do a cheapy flush. The remaining old fluid will be negligible." you do not need a second filter change (unless the anal compulsion is incurable and you like to drop the pan twice).

[cybermgm23]

here's a quick question, if the transmission is sealed, how do you know if the fluid is burnt until you drain it????.....

[tlow98]

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

mine basically looked like "needs replacing" at 67k

but yea.. remove your pan filter when you do this, dont even bother opening the drain plug first theres no point because everything will drain when you take the pan off.

install new pan and put fresh oil in.. thats all you have to do and you WILL NOT suffer from any sort of transmission issues if you dont wait to long.

at 100k, you are taking a gamble but SHOULD be ok.

at 160k, forget it. you have chosen to be irresponsible to the point where your transmission is done for and thats the end of story.

Go away, 6n73-836-d63.

Why bother removing the drain plug? You've never turned a wrench. Your blanket statements are ridiculous.

Is it your parents we have to blame for letting you run wild for these past 18 years?

[jeff408]

Originally Posted by Wilt

The real facts:

1. BMW, in the BMW Service and Warranty book issued with every new car, says to 'change fluid' every 100k miles, A/T fluid in the E9n was NEVER 'lifetime fluid' in that book! I have personally looked at EVERY BMW 3 Series Service and Warranty book PDF for the E9n, and every one of those books published from 2006 to the end of that series say to change automatic transmission fluid at 100k miles. Don't know where this urban legend about BMW 'lifetime' A/T fluid ever came from!
2. The recommendation is to CHANGE fluid (not 'flush') and change also filter. The ZF filter is integral to the drain pan, so you replace the plastic pan and the new pan has the filter in it. The GM filter is a removeable component, and you do not need to buy a new pan.
3. ZF says you do NOT need to fully change out the fluid that is in the torque convertor. ZF NA tech rep, as recently as 6 months ago, writes:

   "A drain and fill procedure will refresh your transmission well enough without fully draining the converter. If you’d like to discuss the procedure to drain the converter, please call our technical service department (800) 321-0784."

   That echoes another reply written one year ago by another ZF NA tech rep,

   "One fluid change is enough to refresh the transmission. You will notice improvement in the shift quality. Of course, a second fluid change will result in an even better result, but is not required.
   "The method shown in this video changes about 60-70% of the oil in the transmission during a normal service, and has proven to be sufficient with a noticeable improvement in shift quality."

   When someone objected to not being satisfied with simply changing out the fluid in the pan, ZF NA tech rep replied,

   "Then do a filter/fluid change, drive it for a short time and then do a drain and refill. This will essentially do a cheapy flush. The remaining old fluid will be negligible."

4. While ZF suggests fluid and filter change every 60k miles or 8 years, they also say to 'follow to your automobile manufacturer recommendations'. BMW universally says 'at 100k' (per the BMW 3 Series Service and Warranty book) regardless of engine type or AT manufacturer.

Great info, thanks for posting and helping all of us be more informed.

[STR8-6IX]

Originally Posted by toystwo

Wilt that all seems very convincing until you read 6IX-F10-N52's well reasoned and informed posts. I'm sure once the ZF techs know that 6IX-F10-N52 has deemed the drain and fill process "useless", they will stop spreading this "misinformation". After all, what do they really know? They just design and build transmissions for a living.

Quoted directly from the ZF website: "Automatic ZF transmissions are filled with the specially developed ZF-LIFEGUARDFLUID transmission oil. At very high operating temperatures, the oil ages faster than under normal conditions. Depending on the driving style (e.g. many drives at high speeds or sporty driving), ZF therefore recommends a transmission oil change every 100,000 km or after 8 years at the latest."

since you clearly are having some trouble understanding what an oil change is, let me explain. an oil change requires not only fresh fluid, but a new filter. you were always taught to change oil filters during an engine OIL CHANGE for a reason.

if you go onto the ZF website, you will note that ZF sells OIL CHANGE kits which include the pan FILTER. therefore, you are talking out of your asshole and trying to discredit me when I have brought evidence paired with simple common sense to the table.

Originally Posted by Wilt

"Never believe and follow what the manufacturer says, they only see the broken trannies and rebuild then.
The shade tree mechanics have the benefit of experience with a few trannies to guide them, "trannies have never failed on me when following that procedure"."

Now that I have been facetious enough, let me say that 6IX-F1-N52's comment, "a drain and fill is stupid and a waste of money. may as well not fuck with your transmission at all if this is all you plan to do. you are simply running fresh new fluid through your old dirty filter" I fully agree with...you need to CHANGE THE FILTER, not merely replace fluid (after 60k miles, or after 100k per BMW).
But if you are following the ZF tech's suggestion for a more thorough fluid change for the anally compulsive, ""Then do a filter/fluid change, drive it for a short time and then do a drain and refill. This will essentially do a cheapy flush. The remaining old fluid will be negligible." you do not need a second filter change (unless the anal compulsion is incurable and you like to drop the pan twice).

[GogglesPisano]

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

at 100k, you are taking a gamble but SHOULD be ok.

at 160k, forget it. you have chosen to be irresponsible to the point where your transmission is done for and thats the end of story.

My first was at the dealer at 150k. My second was at an Indie at 250k. My third was at home at 348k. I'm now at 354k. I guess the difference between 150k and 160k makes all the difference.

[STR8-6IX]

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano

My first was at the dealer at 150k. My second was at an Indie at 250k. My third was at home at 348k. I'm now at 354k. I guess the difference between 150k and 160k makes all the difference.

at 150k, did you do a drain and fill or replaced the pan filter as well?

haha... I was being extremely conservative with my estimates because people on here flip out saying you're gonna ruin your transmission by changing the fluid at 60k and that its better to let your transmission ruin itself with dirty old fluid instead.

looks like you've put those theories to rest.