01-11-2018, 03:32 PM | #1 |
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Will the G80 switch to a ZF AT or continue with a DCT?
Such a great piece of engineering that will be missed in the G80.
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01-11-2018, 06:39 PM | #2 |
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Is that something you know, or just suspect?
I think they dropped DCT from the M5 due to the much higher torque of the turbo 8, but I'd guess the F10 DCT could handle anything a turbo 6 puts out.
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01-11-2018, 07:00 PM | #3 |
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01-11-2018, 08:37 PM | #4 |
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The DCT in the F1X M5/6 is the same unit used in the F8X M2/3/4 and is rated up to 700N-m of torque.
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01-11-2018, 09:53 PM | #5 |
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I have a hunch that the next gen M2/3/4 will retain DCT. The S58 will have nowhere near the 700N-m of max torque. I also doubt that the next gen M3/4 will be getting AWD. So an evolution of the current DCT would still be a great match for the next gen M2/3/4.
IMO, the main reason BMW went with the 8AT on the M5 is for cost. They did not want to invest in the development of a longitudinal DCT with a higher torque rating and compatible with AWD when they had something available off the shelf with these capabilities in the ZF 8AT. Further, due to the car's heft and AWD, the advantages of a DCT might not be as prevalent on the M5. There are DCT that can handle higher torque (Chiron: 1180 lb-ft, Ferrari 488GTB: 561ft-lb, 911 Turbo-s: 553lb-ft just to name a few). So IMO, it is not the inability for the DCT concept to handle the M5's torque, but it is rather that no "off the shelf" option was available to fit the M5 application that drove the decision.
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01-12-2018, 06:14 AM | #6 | |
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I also agree with the points you make. One other thing to keep in mind is that the S58 will be shared with other M products this time around - namely the X3 M and X4 M. I think we can all agree that the DCT is unlikely there given the AT in the X5 M and X6 M. Even Porsche does not use a DCT in their high performance SUVs. While it’s true that M division used the DCT in the last M5 and M6 even though they could have moved to the ZF AT then, and it’s also true that the move to AWD for the M5 probably allowed them to save more cost than otherwise given that they already had something similar developed for the afore mentioned M SUVs, I think that, even if they stay RWD, the next M3 and M4 are likely to move to the ZF. The reasons I think so are that we are in a lower price bracket with lower margins so costs are even more controlled, key competitors - the RS5 and upcoming RS5 Sportback - have switched to the AT, and performance (if not quite feel, perhaps) of the AT has essentially caught up with the DCT. Just my take. |
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01-12-2018, 06:34 AM | #7 | |
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What about the Macan turbo ?
But I agree, a DCT is unlikely in the X3/4M because of the AWD. Quote:
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01-12-2018, 07:47 AM | #8 | |||
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The decision on whether to keep the 6MT may also play a role because you have the opportunity to go from what would now be three transmissions to just one instead. On the other hand, they could at least keep the count at two by eliminating either one or the other of the existing ones used with the S55, and maybe the DCT stands the better chance to make the cut in that case. Though the M2 market might say different. Tough to guess. To me though, if the 6MT goes, the opportunity to cut that not just to two but down to one seems like a tempting proposition if I put myself in the shoes of those counting the beans. Quote:
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01-12-2018, 08:01 AM | #9 |
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The ZF tranny hasn't caught up to DCT no matter what the shift times are. You can feel the difference when you drive them.
Nevertheless it's good to see that BMW implementing DCTs into the Mini brand even though it's a lower premium car. I agree, financially and technically speaking it didn't make sense for BMW to spend that type of time & resources on the M5 with AWD when they could use same tranny from X5M. Also the demographic they are trying to reach with the new M5 is slightly different from years past. However one thing that caught my attention recently is the new Bentley is using a DCT instead of automatic.
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01-12-2018, 08:59 AM | #10 | ||
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http://www.motoringfile.com/2017/12/...fficial-debut/ BMW has also begun using the DCT for some UKL BMW models. So far I think it is just for FWD models. As with MINI, they may very well choose not to use the DCT for AWD models. Quote:
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01-12-2018, 08:27 PM | #11 |
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I think the move to a ZF 8 Speed was a good call. After driving both and M5 and Alpina B5 I personally liked the Alpina much better, it was easier to live with in stop and go traffic than the DCT. Not saying the DCT is bad in traffic but the Alpina was a lot smoother shifting than the M5, but a little slower.
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01-12-2018, 10:29 PM | #12 | |
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01-12-2018, 11:54 PM | #13 | ||
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01-13-2018, 12:49 AM | #14 | |||
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01-13-2018, 12:59 AM | #15 | ||||
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01-13-2018, 02:04 AM | #16 |
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I think it's the overall experience. I had two F30s both with the ZF8 and I found the DCT much much more fun and responsive.
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01-14-2018, 07:33 AM | #17 | |
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When comparing an AT to DCT, it is more a question of overall efficiency. A planetary AT has much more rotating mass than a DCT, which makes the drivetrain more sluggish and less responsive. Further, the secondary clutches that lock the planetary sets for the different gear selection in a traditional AT are not as stout as the main DCT clutches, so the engine power needs to be momentarily cut back during the shift. The DCT clutches can handle an all out WOT power shift to fully recuperate the engine inertia, which makes it slightly more efficient on acceleration. Traditional AT also have more loss and are heavier than DCT. There is a reason why the top end sports cars use DCT.
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01-15-2018, 11:51 AM | #18 | ||
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01-17-2018, 11:18 PM | #19 | |
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01-24-2018, 10:30 PM | #20 |
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I'm going to guess it'll be the 8AT. Bmw clearly has their profits set to the highest priority. It will be much cheaper to use the 8AT than to do a 3rd generation DCT when the 8AT is already developed in a form that can handle the power the new M3/4's power.
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01-26-2018, 10:56 AM | #21 |
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The current DCT can handle 600hp (as seen in the F10 M5) the new M3 won't have more than that it'll have considerably less.
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01-26-2018, 09:07 PM | #22 | |
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