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      07-04-2018, 10:25 PM   #1
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Upping my track game - Apex EC-7 with Michelin SC2

I was hoping to get some more feedback from everybody, all of you have already been so helpful in my countless other threads.
I realized two things after my first track day:

1. It will certainly not be my last
2. You can't run MPSS with no camber and expect the tires to survive

So after reading countless threads and setting up a spreadsheet with all the different tire options, here's what I've come up with.

Stage 1 (Now, before my next track day)
1. Ground Control Camber Plates
2. Apex EC-7 (18x9" front and 18x10" rear)
3. Michelin PSC2 (245/40R18 and 265/35R18)

Stage 2 (Over the winter)
1. Ohlins R/T

I was hoping I could get some feedback on the chosen tire sizes, PSC2's are very limited for 18" rims. My daily tires are Conti ECS 255/275 on the 437M's, so my track tires would be slightly smaller than my dailies. I feel that the stock M2 power doesn't require a wider tire, especially if paired with the grip level of a PSC2.

My question is whether you guys think I should be concerned about the raised ride height in the front due to the higher aspect ratio? Here's what it calculates out compared to stock 19s:

Front: -.5mm
Rear: -12.7mm

Once I have the Ohlins I could adjust but should I be concerned enough to downsize the fronts to a 225/40?

Lastly, are there any reputable 19" track wheels, or should I go down the Nitto NT01 route and scrap my SC2 idea?
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      07-05-2018, 04:09 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOMs335D View Post
I was hoping to get some more feedback from everybody, all of you have already been so helpful in my countless other threads.
I realized two things after my first track day:

1. It will certainly not be my last
2. You can't run MPSS with no camber and expect the tires to survive

So after reading countless threads and setting up a spreadsheet with all the different tire options, here's what I've come up with.

Stage 1 (Now, before my next track day)
1. Ground Control Camber Plates
2. Apex EC-7 (18x9" front and 18x10" rear)
3. Michelin PSC2 (245/40R18 and 265/35R18)

Stage 2 (Over the winter)
1. Ohlins R/T

I was hoping I could get some feedback on the chosen tire sizes, PSC2's are very limited for 18" rims. My daily tires are Conti ECS 255/275 on the 437M's, so my track tires would be slightly smaller than my dailies. I feel that the stock M2 power doesn't require a wider tire, especially if paired with the grip level of a PSC2.

My question is whether you guys think I should be concerned about the raised ride height in the front due to the higher aspect ratio? Here's what it calculates out compared to stock 19s:

Front: -.5mm
Rear: -12.7mm

Once I have the Ohlins I could adjust but should I be concerned enough to downsize the fronts to a 225/40?

Lastly, are there any reputable 19" track wheels, or should I go down the Nitto NT01 route and scrap my SC2 idea?
Since you want a dedicated set of track tires.. why not go NT01/NT05, or even Bridgestone RE71R, or hell Hankook RS4...

Sizes in 18 should be dime a dozen. 245 width is perfect on a 18x9 wheel. 255 is what I'd run on a 9.5" wheel. 265 is perfect for 10.

You want to minimize sidewall flex, and it's that contact patch that the wheel affords is the grip you want in turns. The tire width is sufficient for stock car.
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      07-05-2018, 07:54 AM   #3
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I had/have similar plans but went to Vorshlag camber plates this spring with Apex FL-05 18x9.5 square with RE71Rs (265/35). So far this seems to have worked really well and the RE71Rs aren't seeing anywhere near as much shoulder wear and I'll easily make it through 10-11 track days on them this year. My MPSS have almost no shoulder left after 4 days last fall.

You probably could go with Apex in 19s but if you're sticking with the stock brake calipers then I'd stay with 18s for cheaper tires.

The tires I'd go for are RE71Rs, NT01s or maybe PS4S.

I was also thinking of going with coilovers for next season, Ohlins or M-Perf, but since I daily it, including through the winter that might be a bit harsh.
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      07-05-2018, 08:22 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiesowns View Post
Since you want a dedicated set of track tires.. why not go NT01/NT05, or even Bridgestone RE71R, or hell Hankook RS4...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux2005 View Post

The tires I'd go for are RE71Rs, NT01s or maybe PS4S.

I was also thinking of going with coilovers for next season, Ohlins or M-Perf, but since I daily it, including through the winter that might be a bit harsh.
I know the RE71R's pretty well from my autocross times and they are excellent tires, but I was worried that they don't hold up on track sessions. As you know, the M2 is no light car and I've read some threads of people destroying their RE's in one session. NT01 was my other top contender together with the Yokohama Advan A052. In my mind the PS4S is excellent but it is more similar to a MPSS on the track than a PSC2.

The fact you ran 10-11 track days on your RE's makes me think I prematurely eliminated them. Are you at about 2.5/3 deg of front camber?

In terms of your concern about the coilovers, I've read quite a few articles and the consensus is that the Ohlins and the V3's actually improve your ride. Only when you get into the V3 Clubsport league does it make your car less comfortable.

Thx
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      07-05-2018, 09:41 AM   #5
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Go with the NT01s rather than the SC2s. I've run both on my M2 and the NT01 has better grip and wears much better. I had poor wear (extreme shoulder wear) on SC2s even running on Bilstein coilovers and GC camber plates at 2.7 degrees. You'll save yourself money in the end.

Also, I'm running 275/35/18 square on a set of Apex wheels and it's working out great for me.
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      07-05-2018, 02:30 PM   #6
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Here's my track setup, prefer to run a square setup:
  • Ground Control Camber plates - set to 2.5 degrees track and street
  • Apex EC7 18x10 ET33, requires 10mm spacer at the fronts
  • Toyo R888R - 265/35/18 (will probably go to 275/35/18 for my next set)
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      07-05-2018, 03:40 PM   #7
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I should clarify, I'm at 5 track days now and I think 10-11 days will be possible, I'll know in October. I also hadn't very seriously considered the PS4S but there were a few people running them at my last track weekend and they were very happy with them and preferred them over the RE71Rs they'd used previously. I'm running -2.5 front camber with 0 toe and -2.0 rear camber.
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      07-05-2018, 04:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOMs335D View Post
I was hoping to get some more feedback from everybody, all of you have already been so helpful in my countless other threads.
I realized two things after my first track day:

1. It will certainly not be my last
2. You can't run MPSS with no camber and expect the tires to survive

So after reading countless threads and setting up a spreadsheet with all the different tire options, here's what I've come up with.

Stage 1 (Now, before my next track day)
1. Ground Control Camber Plates
2. Apex EC-7 (18x9" front and 18x10" rear)
3. Michelin PSC2 (245/40R18 and 265/35R18)

Stage 2 (Over the winter)
1. Ohlins R/T

I was hoping I could get some feedback on the chosen tire sizes, PSC2's are very limited for 18" rims. My daily tires are Conti ECS 255/275 on the 437M's, so my track tires would be slightly smaller than my dailies. I feel that the stock M2 power doesn't require a wider tire, especially if paired with the grip level of a PSC2.

My question is whether you guys think I should be concerned about the raised ride height in the front due to the higher aspect ratio? Here's what it calculates out compared to stock 19s:

Front: -.5mm
Rear: -12.7mm

Once I have the Ohlins I could adjust but should I be concerned enough to downsize the fronts to a 225/40?

Lastly, are there any reputable 19" track wheels, or should I go down the Nitto NT01 route and scrap my SC2 idea?
Interested in why you're running 245/40 in front? (vs. 245/35?)
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      07-05-2018, 06:46 PM   #9
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Is there any advantage to say a 18x10 vs a 18x9.5 for a square setup? Want to start bringing the M2 to the track and want a separate dedicated track wheel/tire setup.
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      07-05-2018, 07:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eeyang92 View Post
Interested in why you're running 245/40 in front? (vs. 245/35?)
Size availability of the PSC2's is the only reason. If I go RE71R then I can go 35 aspect ratio. I'd probably even go 255/35R18 front and 275/35R18 rear, which is my daily setup.

Looks like the Nitto's would have to be a 40 as well, but at least they would be the same front and back.
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      07-05-2018, 09:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just blaze View Post
Is there any advantage to say a 18x10 vs a 18x9.5 for a square setup? Want to start bringing the M2 to the track and want a separate dedicated track wheel/tire setup.
10 inch wheel better accommodates a 275 tire.
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      07-05-2018, 10:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tux2005 View Post
I should clarify, I'm at 5 track days now and I think 10-11 days will be possible, I'll know in October. I also hadn't very seriously considered the PS4S but there were a few people running them at my last track weekend and they were very happy with them and preferred them over the RE71Rs they'd used previously. I'm running -2.5 front camber with 0 toe and -2.0 rear camber.
Your earlier post implied that you didn't add negative camber and were getting 10 days out of your tires, glad you posted the clarification. I got 4 out of my Cup 2s with stock settings, I imagine that is about the max without dialing in camber on a comp tire. Adding camber plates this summer so I will get better life/performance when we get back to the track this fall (gotta love AZ fall/winter).
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      07-05-2018, 11:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pruettfan View Post
Your earlier post implied that you didn't add negative camber and were getting 10 days out of your tires, glad you posted the clarification. I got 4 out of my Cup 2s with stock settings, I imagine that is about the max without dialing in camber on a comp tire. Adding camber plates this summer so I will get better life/performance when we get back to the track this fall (gotta love AZ fall/winter).
I think camber is a must! Do you have the Cup 2's on the stock rims? The selection is a lot better for 19" than for 18".
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      07-06-2018, 10:05 AM   #14
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1. Go with 18's.
2. NT01 is old tire tech. Better off with RE71 or any of the new R comps. RS4 would be a step down from both NT01 and RE71.
3. Make sure your GC camber plates will work with the Ohlins. Or just go with a coilover that comes with camber plates.
4. If you're going coilovers and camber plates you might as well go with the widest tire you can fit.
5. I'm not sure what track or pace you're running, but you're not going to get 10+ track days out of the RE71. I got 3 out of mine running Big Willow in the 1:33.xx range.
6. I see no mention of brake pads/fluid. You'll easily have too much tire for stock pads/fluid.

Last edited by Anthony235; 07-06-2018 at 10:11 AM..
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      07-06-2018, 11:24 AM   #15
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Thanks for your input Anthony235, I should have mentioned that even before my first track day I had changed my Pads to Pagid RS29's and fluid to Motul RBF600. That was already a huge step up from stock!

I think you guys changed my mind and I'll go with the RE 71R. They are available in way more sizes, which means I can go with the same 255/35R18 front and 275/35R18 rear as I have on my dailies.

I did confirm that the GC camber plates work well with the Ohlins, I will just have to buy separate mounting hardware when I switch from the stock suspension.
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      07-06-2018, 11:55 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pruettfan View Post
Your earlier post implied that you didn't add negative camber and were getting 10 days out of your tires, glad you posted the clarification. I got 4 out of my Cup 2s with stock settings, I imagine that is about the max without dialing in camber on a comp tire. Adding camber plates this summer so I will get better life/performance when we get back to the track this fall (gotta love AZ fall/winter).
I had mentioned going with Vorshlag camber plates but yes, adding camber is critical. I had to add camber to fit my wheels and to increase tire life. I think the general consensus on the forum seems to be around -2.5 to -2.75 at the front is good for frequent track + daily, with mostly track then higher is more appropriate. I'm jealous of the winter track driving, I have to make do with sim driving which is nowhere as fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOMs335D View Post
In terms of your concern about the coilovers, I've read quite a few articles and the consensus is that the Ohlins and the V3's actually improve your ride. Only when you get into the V3 Clubsport league does it make your car less comfortable.
Ride comfort is part of it but also winter conditions will be quite harsh on the suspension too. It's mostly aluminium so corrosion shouldn't be much of an issue (except for visually) but salt and sand on seals is probably not ideal. Anyway I'll be making more of a judgement call in the fall.

I think you're going about things the right way, anyone tracking their M2 with any frequency should:
- Upgrade brake pads
- Upgrade brake fluid
- Camber plates & full alignment to add camber front & rear

Without the above wear costs will be ugly. Then you get into:
- Dedicated wheels & tires
- HAS or Coilovers
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      07-06-2018, 12:52 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOMs335D View Post
Thanks for your input Anthony235, I should have mentioned that even before my first track day I had changed my Pads to Pagid RS29's and fluid to Motul RBF600. That was already a huge step up from stock!

I think you guys changed my mind and I'll go with the RE 71R. They are available in way more sizes, which means I can go with the same 255/35R18 front and 275/35R18 rear as I have on my dailies.

I did confirm that the GC camber plates work well with the Ohlins, I will just have to buy separate mounting hardware when I switch from the stock suspension.
Nice, that's the same brake setup I went with. I still think the pedal feel is horrible and inconsistent though. Probably my biggest gripe with the car. Hopefully the M2 is better (I'm m235i).

I ran the RE71 255/25/18 square. M2 can fit a much bigger tire though and has LSD from the factory.

Good luck with your track days and stay safe Be mindful of the summer temps on the track.
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      07-06-2018, 06:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOMs335D View Post
I think camber is a must! Do you have the Cup 2's on the stock rims? The selection is a lot better for 19" than for 18".
I ended up getting a set of OZ wheels in 19" and OEM offsets, wasn't sure I wanted to go with a square setup yet. I keep Pilot Sport 4s on the stock wheels because I drive a lot.

I will be doing camber plates this summer as I burned through the corners of the Cup2 in 4 days. I knew it would happen, just haven't had the time to get the plates on and an alignment done by a decent shop.
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      07-08-2018, 03:03 PM   #19
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I've been running:
- M Perf Coilovers,
- GC Camber plates with -2.75 in front, -2 in rear,
- FL-5s and 265/35/18 RE-71s
- Pagid Yellow pads

My first set of RE-71s lasted 4 days (16 sessions) with back-front rotations after each day in very hot conditions (May and June in Texas). I think I can get 6 days total if I rotate after ever day and flip the tires on the wheel after every 2 days. Just got a new set, so we will see what the result is after 4 more track days this fall.

The setup is absolutely solid. Several guys in my run group are on the same tire setup on different cars (F80 M3, F82 M4, E46 M3, 911 GT3s, etc) and get similar life pushing the setup to the limits.
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      08-01-2018, 11:26 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GVN*2FLY View Post
I've been running:
- M Perf Coilovers,
- GC Camber plates with -2.75 in front, -2 in rear,
- FL-5s and 265/35/18 RE-71s
- Pagid Yellow pads

.
How are your clearances on the front coil springs for more negative camber or other tire profiles? I'm standing on the precipice of going with coil-overs again and I'm concerned that I'll have to go with a skinnier linear front coil setup such as tc kline rather than MPC.

Thoughts?

Michael
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      08-02-2018, 02:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrury View Post
How are your clearances on the front coil springs for more negative camber or other tire profiles? I'm standing on the precipice of going with coil-overs again and I'm concerned that I'll have to go with a skinnier linear front coil setup such as tc kline rather than MPC.

Thoughts?

Michael
I haven't considered anything wider than 265 because this setup is tried and true. Experimenting with anything more just isn't worth the risk of it not working and sacrificing track time. To each their own, however.
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      08-03-2018, 07:50 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GVN*2FLY View Post
I haven't considered anything wider than 265 because this setup is tried and true. Experimenting with anything more just isn't worth the risk of it not working and sacrificing track time. To each their own, however.
OK, so with your setup how much more negative camber adjustment is left before the coil comes too close to the inner wing?
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