[stroker15]

I just did a pretty major upgrade to my sound system. Got me an Audio Control DM-810 DSP. The Audison Bit DMI to convert and feed the digital optical signal to the DSP, and a couple of Pioneer amps. The 4 channel and the 5 channel amps. I also got the Earthquake underseat subs. Car sounds amazing with the stock speakers.

Anyway, I was working on upgrading my speakers and decided to go with the BavAuto Euro Audio Design speakers. I was thinking they would be cheaper than the Bavsound Stage 1 Upgrade at $900. Not exactly..

First I bought the center channel and tweeter, for $140. I get the box and it says designed and engineered in the US but nowhere on the box does it say where it's made. Also, there's no address or company information on the box for Euro Audio Design.


I tear open the box and I'm hoping to find a spec sheet for the speaker since there are no specs on the BavAuto site, and no specs on the box. Nope there's no spec sheet at all. No idea what the speakers are rated at or what frequencies it can handle.


Then I started thinking. Hmmm... These look familiar. I pull up the Bavsound page and the pictures on there of their stage one system, the speakers look exactly the same. I try to find specs on the BavSound site and again no specs.


Then I start thinking that I must have gotten my "off brand" speakers for much less than the amazingly marketed Bavsound speakers. Well I did the math and the full system from Bav Auto would cost the same.


So the speakers cost the same, both have no specs online anywhere that I can find, and they look exactly the same, down to the same dimpled woofer cone and colors of the plugs.


Now I could be wrong and they may not be the same, but I swear they look identical and cost the same. If they are the same then the benefit to buying them from BavAuto is that you can buy them in stages. You can buy just the center channel like I did and then save up for the rest. With Bavsound you have to drop the full $900 for the full set. They don't sell the speakers separately.


I'm hoping they are the same. If anyone knows please let me know, but it looks real suspicious.

[stroker15]

One thing I forgot to mention. I've seen discussions on taking out the center channel speaker to improve the sound and others say that they put the center back in because it sounds better. Lots of people on both sides of the center channel/no center channel "debate."

My problem with my HK system in my F30 was that the center channel was way too loud and overpowered the door speakers. Sounded like everything was coming from the center channel. Well the DM-810 DSP fixed that.

First it leveled the audio signals going to my amps and automatically flattened the eq curves for the full range and sub channels. Then I was able to reduce the gain on the center channel and match the output levels of all my other speakers. Now it sounds freaking amazing!

I get one huge front stage and stereo effects pop up from the left and right doors as needed. The sound is totally phenomenal with the stock speakers and stock subs. Throwing in the Earthquake subs also sounds pretty good too.

So I think the fix for the center channel is not to remove it but keep it and add a DSP and reduce the gain to match the door speakers.

[Wgosma]

I don't have the answers, but that is odd the packaging nor product lack country of manufacture info. That info I believe is required by law.

Look at the back of an iPhone....designed in Cali, assembled in China.

[stroker15]

Originally Posted by Wgosma

I don't have the answers, but that is odd the packaging nor product lack country of manufacture info. That info I believe is required by law.

Look at the back of an iPhone....designed in Cali, assembled in China.

I just looked at the box again and I'm positive there's no country of manufacture, not even in small print. I kept thinking it had to be somewhere but it's really not.

I just checked the tweeter and speaker with a magnifying glass and can't find any country of manufacture stamp or anything. Just their brand name, Euro Audio Design and the model number of the speaker. I'm gonna install it this weekend and see how it sounds.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by stroker15

Now I could be wrong and they may not be the same, but I swear they look identical and cost the same.

They probably are the same, sourced out of the same factory in China. I doubt they're any better than stock either. That would be confirmed by definitive data, including full Theile-Small specs and measured response charts, but as you said, there isn't any.

[stroker15]

Well I hope they are better. I was going to go with the Rockford Fosgate speakers made for the F30 but those are $600 a pair. And they don't sell a single speaker for the center channel. I want my front 3 speakers to match and don't feel like buying two $600 sets of speakers to only use 3 out of 4 of them. Unless someone wants to split the cost of a set and we each get one speaker. That would still come out to $900 for 3 speakers. The BavAuto speakers are about $400 for 3.

I just spent over $2 grand for the DSP, Amps, and Digital Audio converter. Still recovering from that. But it's worth it considering how much better my car sounds. Before I'd never turn the music up and I'd play it quietly because it didn't sound so good. Now I'm playing it loud and feeling the music. I got my fingers crossed that the Bav speakers are an upgrade.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by stroker15

Well I hope they are better.

They may be, they may not. All I can say for sure is that no one who is well versed in how loudspeakers work would buy any replacement drivers based on nothing more than advertising blurbs with zero engineering data to back up their claims. The Rockford-Fosgate mains, for instance, have no supporting data. The Rockford-Fosgate T3 woofer does have data, and it shows the T3 woofer to be less capable than stock.

[Wgosma]

I contacted BavSound (via email) couple of days ago inquiring as to whether they can provide published tech specs for their speaker products- have not received any response.

Bavarian Autosport lists no speaker specs on their website, hmmm - makes one wonder a bit about how their product offerings stack up compared to OEM BMW and others....

[Billfitz]

You'd be amazed at how little information most sellers have. I design speakers for a living, for home stereo/home theater speaker manufacturers and professional sound speaker manufacturers. Every design I create I prototype. I take detailed measurements of every prototype. Nine times out of ten when I offer those measurements to the manufacturer they tell me they don't want them. The explanation is that their customers wouldn't understand what they mean anyway, so why bother? By and large the manufacturers don't know what they mean either. Their priorities are, in order of importance:
1. How does the speaker look.
2. How much does it cost to make.
3. How much profit can they make on them.
4. How do they sound.

My experience with the auto sound market is that those sellers are even less interested in #4 than those in the home and professional markets, and are less knowledgeable about the technical details.

[Wgosma]

Here's the reply I just received from BavSound:

I'm not quite certain if he's indicating these are specs for his speakers or for the OEM BMW speakers, hmm.......

Hi Bill,

All of our speakers are of infinitely higher build and sound quality than the factory speakers. The resulting soundstage is much more clear, open, immersive . . . smooth, strident high end and a more defined, energetic bass spectrum - while being very accurate and true to the original sound source.

I'm not sure which audio system type you have so these are the specs for the speakers used in the HiFi and Harman Kardon vehicles.

Tweeters:
-----------------
Size: 25mm
Material: Silk Composite
Impedance: 4 Ohm
Frequency Response: 1,600Hz - 20,000Hz
Power Handling (RMS): 22W
Sensitivity: 96dB +- 2dB at 1m with 1W input

Midranges:
-----------------
Size: 100mm (4")
Material: Woven Fiberglass
Impedance: 4 Ohm
Frequency Response: 80Hz - 4,000Hz
Power Handling (RMS): 40W
Sensitivity: 84dB +- 2dB at 1m with 1W input

I hope this helps and let me know if you have any additional questions!

[Billfitz]

That's what I expected. I can pretty much guarantee that no one there knows their Fs from their Qes. I don't expect that you know what those terms mean, but they do to anyone who knows what they're talking about where loudspeakers are concerned. They may be pretty good speakers, they may not, but their claims aren't backed up by the science of audio reproduction any more than those found here:
http://audiophile.rocks/index.html

[Wgosma]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

That's what I expected. I can pretty much guarantee that no one there knows their Fs from their Qes. I don't expect that you know what those terms mean, but they do to anyone who knows what they're talking about where loudspeakers are concerned. They may be pretty good speakers, they may not, but their claims aren't backed up by the science of audio reproduction any more than those found here:
http://audiophile.rocks/index.html

I'm a retired mech engineer, worked in B2B tech sales biz most of my career. I'm not very knowledgeable on audio specs in spite of having NAD components and Focal JM Lab speakers in the house for 15 years.

Suffice to say, the guys overuse of adjectives to describe how superior his products are puts me immediately on my guard -

[Billfitz]

I'm of the same opinion.

[JimmyDee]

Originally Posted by Wgosma

All of our speakers are of infinitely higher build and sound quality than the factory speakers. The resulting soundstage is much more clear, open, immersive . . . smooth, strident high end and a more defined, energetic bass spectrum - while being very accurate and true to the original sound source.

Blah, Blah, Blah...
This is just marketing jargon, and tells you zero about the actual speaker.

If I were you, I'd put the guy to the test, and send him back this reply:

To whom it may concern,
Thank-you for your message. I appreciate you taking the time to reply, however your response has created more questions for me. Your descriptions are vague, so I am going to break them down with hopes that you can provide a detailed and professional response.

1. Please send me the THD specs on the speakers, to confirm they are 'much more clear'.

2. Please elaborate on 'open'. What part of the speaker is open? Or, how do you define and measure 'open sound'?

3. How did you measure 'immersive'? Typically, the ability of a system to be immersive is done by tuning, which requires a DSP. How do your speakers improve immersiveness?

4. Again, how did you measure 'smooth'? Smoothness is typically the transition of one speaker to another. ie. the crossover between a tweeter and a mid or woofer. Please send crossover specs, to support your claim.

5. Strident high end? If I look up the word Strident in the dictionary, it defines it as: loud and harsh; grating. Are your tweeters really loud and harsh... and grating?

6. Please send data to support the 'Energetic Bass Spectrum'. Energy (in the case of a stereo) would be Power, which is measured in Watts. Please send data on the power handling capabilities of your speakers. Also, please send data showing the frequency range of each speaker, including the Fs characteristics.

In addition to the above points, you also mention that the speakers are 'infinitely higher sound quality' than the factory speakers. Infinite is a big number... so, let's dial it way back, and just say your speakers are maybe twice as good? How about only half as good? Either way, I have to assume that you have tested the factory speakers, and have data to confirm that your speakers outperform factory speakers. I'll throw you a bone, and not ask for them to be infinitely better, but I do want to see data that shows how they are better (in any way) compared to the stock speakers.

I am not expecting you to respond to this message... because honestly, I don't think you have the answers to any of my questions. If I don't hear back from you, I will assume you're just making things up, and slinging marketing terms to try to sell some low end speakers. However, if you can respond with some real data (as any reputable speaker manufacturer would), and your claims all check-out, then I will be happy to purchase your product.

[Wgosma]

I know, I worked for way too long in the (tech- B2B) sales biz and recognized immediately this guy is a typical 'sales type', ugh. Unfortunately way too many 'consumers' can't or won't spend the time to dig in on specs - these speaker sets at U.S. $900 or so are not a cheap upgrade in my book; were I in the market I'd be wanting to see specs compared to OEM BMW to know if they are really a decent improvement.

I'm not considering upgrading speakers - I drive a 2012 X3 and recently installed a used B-Tech DSP amp - nice upgrade and good enough for my 'truck', um...SUV, SAV

I've read some other posts on folks who have done upgraded speakers, one guy mentioned that Bavarian Autosport also sells what appears be the same speakers as BavAuto - I sent them an email inquiry also, no reply so far.

Thanks/Bill

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by Wgosma

these speaker sets at U.S. $900 or so are not a cheap upgrade in my book

Due diligence. Anyone who assumes that just because they carry a high price tag that they're an improvement hasn't done their homework. If they did they'd have found these street prices for the OEM H-K driver set:

Center Tweeter $ 83
Center Midrange $ 67
Door Tweeters (4) $ 288
Door Midrages (4) $ 480
Rear Tweeters (2) $ 166
Rear Midranges (2) $ 128

Total $1209

[Perfromancedubs]

The Euro Audio Design speakers are the original BSW or BAV speakers that are built here in the US. The Company who builds them is called Alumapro. I have been a dealer for them since the late 90's. BAV/BSW came to Alumapro back in 2009-2010 to build them a drop in replacement. Needless to say that BSW filed bankruptcy and left Alumapro high and dry. Shortly after a couple of people bought the name and designs and contracted a china factory to reproduce the TRUE American made product from Illinois. SOOOO Euro Audio Design in the true original designers and hence the reason BAV looks so similar.

Feel free to contact me with any concerns as I have been expanding the Euro Audio Design Series into VW and Audi as well.
www.performancedubs.com

[OcmRz3r]

Originally Posted by Perfromancedubs

The Euro Audio Design speakers are the original BSW or BAV speakers that are built here in the US. The Company who builds them is called Alumapro. I have been a dealer for them since the late 90's. BAV/BSW came to Alumapro back in 2009-2010 to build them a drop in replacement. Needless to say that BSW filed bankruptcy and left Alumapro high and dry. Shortly after a couple of people bought the name and designs and contracted a china factory to reproduce the TRUE American made product from Illinois. SOOOO Euro Audio Design in the true original designers and hence the reason BAV looks so similar.

The Euro Audio Design speakers are absolutely the original Bavsound speakers, and EAD is a label of Alumapro. Alumapro did design and source the BavSound speakers (the midranges and tweeters). If you watch some of the Bavsound promo videos you'll see a Matthew with title of chief engineer, this is Matthew Honnert of Alumapro. But they are not now nor were they ever made in the US. Alumapro sourced them from a Chinese partner and still does. Also Bavsound did not file for bankruptcy, they simply decided to cut Alumapro out and source directly from China through a Taiwanese supplier. Bavsound was started by 3 high school kids with absolutely zero technical knowledge, and 2 of those (the Cranman brothers) are still running the company. Their business model evolved from attempting to build a good product to simply sourcing the cheapest thing they can that looks slick and market the crap out of it. 90% of people won't know the difference.

Regardless, the Euro Audio Design (and Bavsound) speakers are pretty well garbage. The idea was to gain a little extra sensitivity with a lower impedance voicecoil but they failed - from the measurements they are less sensitive AND have inferior other specs to the OEM drivers. Total manufacturing cost including packaging and ocean frieght on a pair of those midranges is under $30. Anyone with any real knowledge of transducer design would cringe looking at them. The basket design is a case study in how to do it wrong (lots of wide, flat areas that minimize open area/maximize reflections and are weak to boot). They lack the single biggest improvement you can make to a driver - no shorting cap or ring. The inverted surround is a known gimmick with generally nothing but downsides. The list goes on.

But hey, if you can get idiots to buy them and think they've got themselves something great, why not?

[Billfitz]

At least no one is selling 'upgraded' speaker wire for BMW at $100 a foot...yet.