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      02-14-2019, 02:57 PM   #1
Ilyam5
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Should SUVs get full M- car treatment?

I think I’m not the only one surprised that the X3 M got the new M engine before the M3. It used to be the opposite, X5 M was an afterthought in the BMW world… Oh what the heck – let’s throw the big engine in there and see what happens.
But it is different this time around. These X3 and x4 Ms are full blown M cars with full redesign of suspension, brakes, aerodynamics, engine, cooling etc.
Why? One might ask. … Fighting huge weight and high center of gravity - (compared to sports car) - forces more HP demands, which I turn forces 4 wheel drive to put it down. Also heavy duty materials are required to withstand all the weight and braking , twisting, accelerating forces from high mass – high HP - vicious circle.
Does not it make more sense to go the opposite way – smaller car, less weight, moderate HP – great power to weigh ratio, RWD – better handling, more fun… - And call that a true M.
Another anomaly is – utilizing all this power and M innovations in a heavy SUV.
The point of M cars was always kind of dual use – Doable for the street (if not a bit uncomfortable) and acceptable for the track. That’s how most enthusiasts justified higher prices and lived with inconveniences of stiff suspension and demanding engines. This way those M cars were used to their to maximum potential. I know I used all my Ms (4) to the last extent 3-4 years per each car instructing at multiple driving clubs and driving family around. So at 60-70 K miles those cars were toast – tired and retired  But I felt that I got my money worth out of them. And those cars were smiling being scrapped – they had a good car life vs those crying M3s that were sitting in a garage and getting groceries at 30 MPH 
Now all the RND and design money spend on squeezing the last ounce of performance out of the M car at the limit is wasted – it goes into the heavy car – that never is going to see its potential. Most of the world does not have autobahns, so no triple digit speeds, cameras in Europe are killing high speed driving and even autobahns are more and more restricted (hours of day and night).
Those trucks certainly are not going to see the track in its current configuration. Most USA tracks are too tight and too slow for even M5 size car, leave alone SUV. They are dominated by track prepared Miatas and modifies e30 and e36 M3s (Light).
So the only way out is to design – special SUV tracks – BMW should run driving clubs in an auto rally environment – with fast packed dirt roads. Or super wide open road courses (Watkins glen or VIR but 3 times wider) so SUVs can turn.
Seriously – what will one do with a student at the track event - if he/she shows up in an SUV. They used to be banned But I think we have to rethink our strategy
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      02-14-2019, 03:33 PM   #2
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The world has changed... the market has changed and therefore the demand has changed.

Hence the focus on SUV by all manufacturers, even the super premiums such as Rolls Royce, Lamborghini, Aston Martin etc...

So I do believe they need to prioritise the models that will sell... the X3M will possibly outsell the next gen M3.

Just my thoughts ...
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      02-14-2019, 03:48 PM   #3
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SUV's have already got the full M treatment....so.... like the previous poster the demand for these are in the market place and ALL the major manufacturers have or will respond...dollars and cents....
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      02-14-2019, 04:54 PM   #4
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Why is this even a question? It's been done!
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      02-14-2019, 05:05 PM   #5
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It's smart to share the engine with other platforms - more volume equals lower cost to the consumer. No complaints and happy to see the m lineup expanding.
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      02-14-2019, 05:28 PM   #6
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Well, since I have thoroughly and completely enjoyed my X5M and still look forward to the final year on my lease I say HELL YES!.

Former E92 M3 and F10 M5 driver as well.
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      02-14-2019, 07:36 PM   #7
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      02-15-2019, 12:16 PM   #8
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the market decides
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      02-18-2019, 01:47 AM   #9
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NEW QUESTION: Why do people keep hating on the next man's choice in automobiles? coupe drivers feel superior to sedans, sedan (or even better yet the wagon) drivers laugh at SUVs, now more recently SUV drivers finally gotten theirs and shit on SUV Coupes, which in turn laugh at everyone else thinking they don't get it....

Would it be better if everyone drove the exact same car? To each is his own, for my life... nothing could be better than a fast SUV Coupe format, I drive a X4 ECU flash tuned to around 420bhp, with a narly MPE and it will shit on any car off the line.. while I'm driving home from Ikea with two dogs and a baby in the back sear. Who are you to say I can't do that and enjoy it? I'll waste my cash however I please, thank you...
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      02-19-2019, 08:32 AM   #10
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There is no hate on any car here. You missed the point. I have an x5 with V8 and 456Hp. No one is saying don't put big engines in SUVs. its the opposite - they need it. to move 5-6K ponds around

Question is - Why full M treatment? M - was always racing technology designed for cars participating in racing. So one would sacrifice comfort in order to loose weight (no stereo, small ac unit, cloth doors and seats, no roof hatch) and will live with teeth rattling suspension to be able to race on the weekends
SUVs can not do that and are not allowed on most tracks. Why waste RND on it?
why is
M40 x3 and 50 x5 not enough?
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      02-19-2019, 12:34 PM   #11
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"Why the full M treatment" is an iteration of the same question that's asked over and over and over and over.

The M1 wasn't enough to satisfy the market permanently, and that's why different versions have evolved since the '70s.

The appeal for performance-oriented SUV extensions boils down to a pretty simple concept - liking something, and wanting the best version of it.

You could argue that boosting the luxury amenities in the SUV itself would do that, and you wouldn't be wrong - but power from an engine and the fun of the tuned suspension, etc. creates something visceral.

No matter what you decide to pay more for in your life, you do it because of the way it makes you feel.

This RND you speak of...part of that is market research. And it turns out that, at this current time, people want something that goes fast, is fun to drive, lugs all their stuff, and isn't just a wagon.

What lowers the RND cost is not having to create an entirely new nomenclature that consumers won't understand. People who want an M already know what it is. That saves a lot of money.

This isn't a new concept at all. Porsche does it. Hell, while we're talking about practicality, Mercedes even does it with the G63...do some AMG lovers whine about the erosion of what AMG stands for? Almost assuredly. But it's certainly the most common AMG vehicle I see in my city, and is starts at $150K.

You can hate the concept and hate what's happening - but if you're asking why, you're not paying attention.
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      02-19-2019, 12:35 PM   #12
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I think M interiors are better which is a huge part of why I would want an M for my SUV. Look at the X3M comp seats vs base seats (same as M40i). Exterior visuals and handling are markedly improved as well. I don't need 500 HP but I do want 400+ and the handling to match.

So yeah I want an M suv over lesser product lines if I can afford it.
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      02-19-2019, 03:56 PM   #13
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I'm with you on this. Having said that our X3 m40i has been so impressive that I can almost convince myself to get the full m version. It's clear bmw wanted to get the new x3 right given the competition and I think they did a great job. Now, if they make a M3 wagon...
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      02-19-2019, 07:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkfastwagon View Post
Now, if they make a M3 wagon...

…..THIS...….
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      06-17-2019, 09:00 AM   #15
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VERY interesting Top Gear review

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/bmw/x3-m/verdict

could not have said it better myself.
Why BMW , WHY?

X3 m40 is a beautiful car
and this year it will have
new tech and new engine upgrade -
concentrate more in M performance SUVs for street duty

and invest in M3 coming to market sooner

engine is here, body is here - why not release it now

It should have been an M3 introduction - One year ahead of your schedule
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      06-17-2019, 10:45 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilyam5 View Post
There is no hate on any car here. You missed the point. I have an x5 with V8 and 456Hp. No one is saying don't put big engines in SUVs. its the opposite - they need it. to move 5-6K ponds around

Question is - Why full M treatment? M - was always racing technology designed for cars participating in racing. So one would sacrifice comfort in order to loose weight (no stereo, small ac unit, cloth doors and seats, no roof hatch) and will live with teeth rattling suspension to be able to race on the weekends
SUVs can not do that and are not allowed on most tracks. Why waste RND on it?
why is
M40 x3 and 50 x5 not enough?
The answer is simple..... (a few of the reviews referenced that bmw actually mentioned it during their press info)

BMW expects the MX3 to become their best selling M car.

It's about making a really cool suv that is going to sell very well at a high price with features not available at a lower price tier

If you want to debate what you wish the M brand was to fill your personal (and likely shared with a few others on this site) vision of what M should be that's a completely different discussion. But as far as the overall market is concerned bmw is expecting significant demand for this vehicle.
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      06-17-2019, 11:13 AM   #17
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I like the idea of an X3M but I don't give a shit if it can lap the Nurburgring in under 8 minutes because I (and 99.9% of owners) will never take it to the track. So why not just make a really powerful, sporty, responsive, yet comfortable X3 made of higher quality materials than the lesser X3s? Maybe I'm more of an X5M driver although it is way to big more my uses or preferences.

I think BMW is feeling the pressure to "compete" by performance numbers and BMW and competitors lose sight that track abilities are BS when it comes to this segment. I think Porsche gets this but their vehicles are too expensive.
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      06-19-2019, 11:40 AM   #18
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people need to understand the X3M is helping with development costs on the M3/M4, which is a GOOD THING. its harder for them to justify M3 now because sedans are losing sales.

$15,000 more for full blown M version, over 4 years you might lose $7,500 of that in value, thats $156/month.

for $160/month you are getting a lot nicer interior (leather/seats), a hell of a lot more power and better looks, totally worth it to me (especially considering you are already losing $700/month on a X3 M40i in depreciation.

I personally am torn between getting a X3M now or waiting a year for the new M3, I want the AWD and M3 will finally have it, but with 2 kids the X3M is more practical and I won't track either car (those days are over for me).
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      06-19-2019, 02:52 PM   #19
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Yeah it's funny I was building up a loaded (including M diff) X3 M40i and calculated a lease payment then realized the base X3M with exec is only like $140/mo more and then X3MC only $60/mo more on top of that. I think I'm most interested in base X3M vs M40i but I would want that competition exhaust assuming it is actually different from base.
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      06-21-2019, 01:32 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilyam5 View Post
I think I'm not the only one surprised that the X3 M got the new M engine before the M3. It used to be the opposite, X5 M was an afterthought in the BMW world… Oh what the heck – let's throw the big engine in there and see what happens.
But it is different this time around. These X3 and x4 Ms are full blown M cars with full redesign of suspension, brakes, aerodynamics, engine, cooling etc.
Why? One might ask. … Fighting huge weight and high center of gravity - (compared to sports car) - forces more HP demands, which I turn forces 4 wheel drive to put it down. Also heavy duty materials are required to withstand all the weight and braking , twisting, accelerating forces from high mass – high HP - vicious circle.
Does not it make more sense to go the opposite way – smaller car, less weight, moderate HP – great power to weigh ratio, RWD – better handling, more fun… - And call that a true M.
Another anomaly is – utilizing all this power and M innovations in a heavy SUV.
The point of M cars was always kind of dual use – Doable for the street (if not a bit uncomfortable) and acceptable for the track. That's how most enthusiasts justified higher prices and lived with inconveniences of stiff suspension and demanding engines. This way those M cars were used to their to maximum potential. I know I used all my Ms (4) to the last extent 3-4 years per each car instructing at multiple driving clubs and driving family around. So at 60-70 K miles those cars were toast – tired and retired  But I felt that I got my money worth out of them. And those cars were smiling being scrapped – they had a good car life vs those crying M3s that were sitting in a garage and getting groceries at 30 MPH 
Now all the RND and design money spend on squeezing the last ounce of performance out of the M car at the limit is wasted – it goes into the heavy car – that never is going to see its potential. Most of the world does not have autobahns, so no triple digit speeds, cameras in Europe are killing high speed driving and even autobahns are more and more restricted (hours of day and night).
Those trucks certainly are not going to see the track in its current configuration. Most USA tracks are too tight and too slow for even M5 size car, leave alone SUV. They are dominated by track prepared Miatas and modifies e30 and e36 M3s (Light).
So the only way out is to design – special SUV tracks – BMW should run driving clubs in an auto rally environment – with fast packed dirt roads. Or super wide open road courses (Watkins glen or VIR but 3 times wider) so SUVs can turn.
Seriously – what will one do with a student at the track event - if he/she shows up in an SUV. They used to be banned But I think we have to rethink our strategy
Can someone summarize plz? I couldn't get past the first sentence... Fast SAV owner.
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      06-25-2019, 07:18 AM   #21
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the ultimate driving machine is made by the ultimate cash making machine, market drives the development not the other way around. purist were probably equally upset the first time a sports car got power brakes, steering, or radio and air conditioning yet the market demanded it and here we are. now in ten years when everyone wants a souped up station wagon I will probably be the one wondering how it came to that.
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